Dwarven Defender Megatopic!

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Umskiptar
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Dwarven Defender Megatopic!

Post by Umskiptar » Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:17 pm

Hello. I think defenders could really use some love. The PrC is quite subpar literally bad at the moment. Seeing as a lot of mechanical changes are going in lately, I thought we could have a discussion thread on how to make this PrC a bit more enjoyable.

My suggestions are the following:

Remove dodge from prerequisites. This messes the stat spread too much. There's not a single passable Defender build left. Defenders don't benefit from having 13 dexterity in any way, not to mention gold dwarves even get a penalty on it. It's a heavy sacrifice for nothing.

Improve Defensive Stance with Dwarven Defender levels. Tanking requires AC in Arelith. Seeing as Defensive Stance cannot be toggled together with Improved Expertise, a scaling AC bonus to it would be ideal. This is the iconic ability of this class. Make it worthwhile!

The current bonuses from Defensive Stance are:
+2 STR (Subject to +12 cap)
+4 CON (Subject to +12 cap. Very unreliable because toggling it off in low HP could result to death)
+2 saves (Good)
+4 dodge AC (You'd be much better off with Improved Expertise in most of the cases)
Considering Defenders don't lose AB, but cannot move in this stance, I think something similar would be a reasonable approach:
+4 dodge AC at level 1 (Currently)
+5 dodge AC at level 6
+6 dodge AC at level 12 (2 more AC!)

Feedback, criticism and more suggestions are very much welcome. Let's make this PrC playable, please. Thanks for your time.
Last edited by Umskiptar on Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:12 pm, edited 10 times in total.

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AnselHoenheim
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Re: Dwarven Defender Buffs

Post by AnselHoenheim » Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:34 pm

It's a good suggestion, if we understand the limitations of defensive stance, why not add you can use it everywhere as Improved Expertise? That, and the additions suggested here are more tht enough to put this PrC on a good positivos on in building

Seven Sons of Sin
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Re: Dwarven Defender Buffs

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:05 pm

Would it be beneficial if we removed the "can't move or disables it" from Defensive Stance? NWN pathfinding isn't the greatest, and that flaw to the ability isn't as translatable from PnP as we'd like it to be.
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Re: Dwarven Defender Buffs

Post by Nitro » Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:34 pm

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:Would it be beneficial if we removed the "can't move or disables it" from Defensive Stance? NWN pathfinding isn't the greatest, and that flaw to the ability isn't as translatable from PnP as we'd like it to be.
It's a very iconic ability though, and the idea of a dwarf planting his feet and becoming part of the mountain is basically the identity of the class. I think they'd benefit more from a taunt like the one PDK's got.

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caldura firebourne
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Re: Dwarven Defender Buffs

Post by caldura firebourne » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:13 am

Or maybe instead of being unable to move, you move as if heavily encumbered while in defensive stance
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Re: Dwarven Defender Buffs

Post by Shadowy Reality » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:24 am

Having played a DD some months ago..

I'd rather have it remain thematically sound. I previously had suggested Damage Immunity, Knockdown Immunity or even Critical Hit immunity while in defensive stance.

They still get hit, but it just doesn't hurt all that much.

Edit: Maybe also add something along the Goblin mob buff. When several DDs are near each other some of their buffs increase (aka "The Wall" as we know it)

Cerk Evermoore
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Re: Dwarven Defender Buffs

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:38 am

DD's really could use some love that is for sure. Should be one of the strongest classes around for countering or at least tanking melee.

Umskiptar
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Re: Dwarven Defender Buffs

Post by Umskiptar » Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:23 am

Cerk Evermoore wrote:DD's really could use some love that is for sure. Should be one of the strongest classes around for countering or at least tanking melee.
Exactly why I think there should be an AC bonus approach to support their tank role. Currently they work like Barbarians, but are far worse. You need AC to tank effectively in Arelith, not HP and DR.
caldura firebourne wrote:Or maybe instead of being unable to move, you move as if heavily encumbered while in defensive stance
I really like this idea, if the only problem of the PrC was the fact that they cannot move in Defensive Stance. Sadly, the entire feat needs an overhaul because it falls behind.

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If Valor Were Inches
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Re: Dwarven Defender Buffs

Post by If Valor Were Inches » Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:17 pm

I like the idea of them taking hits more than dodging them personally. Maybe a knockdown immunity, and with a lot of DD levels, immunity to critical hits, while in their immobile stance. It its better with them being a wall, rather than a dodging wall.

Or remove DD class entirely, along with dwarves from the server forever!

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Lorkas
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Re: Dwarven Defender Buffs

Post by Lorkas » Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:29 pm

AC can mean taking hits also. Full plate armor doesn't make you better at dodging!

AC just means your ability to avoid hits that actually deal damage to you, which could mean that you dodge the hit, or it could mean that it couldn't get through your armor.

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Tyrantos
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Re: Dwarven Defender Buffs

Post by Tyrantos » Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:44 pm

Something that I think would be cool would be if DD could take upon diffrent aspect of old dwarven heroes, Because I always considered them like the champion of their people.. And there is usually alot of anscestor worship amongst the dwarves, if im not incorrect. Not sure what these would do but.. Yeah!

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Re: Dwarven Defender Buffs

Post by Chucky1234 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:17 pm

What about something left-field like DD only marble/granite armour....it fits with their not moving and could be super heavy but give epic AC and immunity boosts

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Tyrantos
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Re: Dwarven Defender Buffs

Post by Tyrantos » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:33 pm

Been thinking about it some more. Would be cool if we continued on the idea I spoke of earlier, but implemented it in diffrence stances that gave diffrent effects.

Umskiptar
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Dwarven Defender Megatopic!

Post by Umskiptar » Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:08 pm

[Screams internally]

No, really, I updated the thread.

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Opustus
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Re: Dwarven Defender Buffs

Post by Opustus » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:21 pm

It's good you have something to fight for! Stay strong!

My philosophy is that if presented with an opportunity to tinker with a class, one should do something inspired that really underscores the theme of the class! Soar to greater heights, think wild first, balance and practicality later.

I don't mind the flat AC bonus; it's plain, a buff. Alongside it or in its place, I suggest this:


Dwarven Synergy Bonus (e.g. "The Bastion of Dwarves") - The Dwarven Defender gets bonus +1 to AB and AC for each friendly dwarf PC within 20 feet up to a bonus of +5. While Defensive Stance is active, an additional +10 Discipline and Concentration is granted.
Non-Dwarven Synergy Bonus (e.g. "Dwarven Diplomacy") - The Dwarven Defender gets bonus +1 to Will and Fortitude for each friendly non-dwarf PC within 20 feet up to a bonus of +5. While Defensive Stance is active, an additional +5 vs. Death and +5 damage vs. Chaos is granted.

The protection of others is the Dwarven Defender's finest hour. The tactics of the Dwarven Defender are passed down as tradition within the dwarven holds to teach that there is strength in numbers on the battlefield. When defending their kin, the shrewd dwarven ken of battle allows them to maneuver with unmatched coordination and symmetry. When defending others than their own, they derive will and fortitude to fight from valour, showing the true dwarven grit in the face of adversity.
Last edited by Opustus on Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:41 am, edited 4 times in total.
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RedGiant
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Re: Dwarven Defender Buffs

Post by RedGiant » Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:52 am

Shadowy Reality wrote:Edit: Maybe also add something along the Goblin mob buff. When several DDs are near each other some of their buffs increase (aka "The Wall" as we know it)
This is kinda brilliant. Love the idea.
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Opustus
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Re: Dwarven Defender Buffs

Post by Opustus » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:37 am

RedGiant wrote:
Shadowy Reality wrote:Edit: Maybe also add something along the Goblin mob buff. When several DDs are near each other some of their buffs increase (aka "The Wall" as we know it)
This is kinda brilliant. Love the idea.
Geh, read my post above! It's basically that with a mechanic and explanation in place.
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Ork
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Re: Dwarven Defender Megatopic!

Post by Ork » Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:32 pm

I always liked that there were perks in Skyrim that allowed you to deflect damage when holding up your shield. I think DDs deserve the same. In defensive stance, dwarves that progress slowly gain a % of damage resistance:

DD 2: 5%
DD 4: 10%
DD 6: 15%
DD 8: 20%
DD 10: 25%

Epic (increases by 10)
DD 12: 35%
DD 14: 45%
DD 16: 55%
DD 18: 65%
DD 20: 75%

Only activated in stance, and maybe they get to choose if it effects elemental or physical, never both.

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Re: Dwarven Defender Megatopic!

Post by RamblerTeo » Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:45 pm

give them dwarves to defend???

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flower
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Re: Dwarven Defender Megatopic!

Post by flower » Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:33 pm

Give them crit immunity.

Also give them abilities with cool downs, turns per levels. When used their party (plus them) gets AC increase (dodge), save increase (encouranged?).

In case the target of buff is Dwarf, make these bonuses stronger?

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Re: Dwarven Defender Megatopic!

Post by SwampFoot » Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:53 pm

I think DDs are mostly fine the way they are now. Critical immunity while only in stance would be about the only addition I'd like to see them with. They can already mitigate far more damage than a barbarian, they synergize well with WM (if one gives up the rogue dip or starts as rogue), And their AC easily can match any basic Fighter/WM/rogue build with thoughtful building.

Giving them more AC bonuses, more damage mitigation and ways to hold agro like a PDK Would simply make them the defacto strongest character in the game like what Barbarians were with bite-back.

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Dwarven Defender Megatopic!

Post by Baron Saturday » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:58 pm

I'd like to see an AoE taunt in the vein of the PDK's Rallying Cry added to DD, tied to defensive stance. Otherwise activating defensive stance is just asking to get ignored.
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hmm2
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Heavily Encumbered, Right in the b...

Post by hmm2 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:42 pm

caldura firebourne wrote:you move as if heavily encumbered while in defensive stance
Yes.
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Lorkas
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Re: Dwarven Defender Megatopic!

Post by Lorkas » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:48 am

They can already mitigate far more damage than a barbarian
Well, it depends.

If you're hit with less than 45 points of damage, the DD will soak more, by 1-3 points. If you're hit with more than 45, a raging half-orc can soak more than the DD (for a non-half-orc, the break-even point is a little higher).

I wouldn't call 1-3 points difference, and only up to hits of 45 HP "far more" though.

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Re: Dwarven Defender Megatopic!

Post by Seekeepeek » Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:13 am

Add 10/+5 damage reduction when in defensive stance if you have 14+ levels in DD.
DD was never an ac tank so make more sense they get more dmg soak.

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