Monsters and Cities

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DarkDreamer
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Monsters and Cities

Post by DarkDreamer » Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:09 pm

Can we change the ruling that monsters found ~inside~ a surface settlement such as Cordor, Brog, Guldorand and Bendir can be PvP'd on sight, of course they must be IN the settlement and you cannot have summoned them there for that. Since your not allowed to have tea and crumpets with them, you should not have to have a full RP conversation with them either as the guards and such realistically wouldn't either, this would be helpful too with the immersion ideals that such creatures are not considered your friends and that there are REAL consequences for willingly walking into a surface city.
Last edited by DarkDreamer on Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Mr_Rieper
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Monsters and Cities

Post by Mr_Rieper » Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:17 pm

Throwing in my 2 cents, I'm in agreement with this.

I have no problem RPing with monsters, but with the absence of killscripts, monsters have been seen walking directly into the inner parts of cities and being surprised when they are confronted with threats of violence.

It should be considered a hostile action to enter a city as a monster.

It makes every encounter very awkward when people have to stand around for a minimal amount of RP before dropping threats and driving them off. A monster entering a settlement should be automatically assumed to be attacking/raiding it, and driven off.

It should be EXTREMELY dangerous for a monster to do this, as anything could happen. The monster is going into a "dungeon" filled with hostile human creatures. They aren't going to ask you why you are there before grabbing a sword and running at you.
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Seven Sons of Sin
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Re: Monsters and Cities

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:33 pm

Since people respond negatively to PvP, I think it's wise to just limit the opportunities it can arise for this sort of thing.

And by monsters we mean:

kobolds, goblins, orogs, ogres, hobgoblins? Or are duergar and drow included as well?
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Queen Titania
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Re: Monsters and Cities

Post by Queen Titania » Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:35 pm

We are not changing PvP rules, you have to interact before violence, no exceptions ever.

The DM Team will enforce and come down on Monster Players who are being silly and going into settlements. Please report instances of silliness.
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Hatsune Miku
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Re: Monsters and Cities

Post by Hatsune Miku » Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:17 pm

If the PC monster decides to be a snuggle bear with surface settlements that do not open their doors to them, with no sign of caution, aversion, purpose or desire to get the hell out immediately - Your beef is with the player and you should be pinging a DM to tell them that the player is out of order.

NPCs and DMs are the only ones who should have the pass to go ham on players.

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Re: Monsters and Cities

Post by gilescorey » Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:32 pm

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:Since people respond negatively to PvP, I think it's wise to just limit the opportunities it can arise for this sort of thing.

And by monsters we mean:

kobolds, goblins, orogs, ogres, hobgoblins? Or are duergar and drow included as well?
I would say Drow are most definitely a monster race. They're like the boogeyman, except he's real - and way meaner than you thought. Duergar I have less of an opinion on.

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The Patriarchy
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Re: Monsters and Cities

Post by The Patriarchy » Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:37 pm

Drow literally and are know for: eating sentient creatures such as elves and humans while still alive, sacrificing people to their cruel spider god for fun, learning surfacer fashions so they can be sexy and distracting while they commit ill deeds in surface settlements, abducting people from their homes in the night and being a race damned to CE alignment but for a few very specific exceptions.

so yea, monsters
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Re: Monsters and Cities

Post by The GrumpyCat » Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:41 pm

RP before PVP doesn't need to be a ten min conversation. It can be as short as 'Get out of this place, Monster Scum, or feel my blade!'. Now granted I'd advise giving said monster a few seconds to do as you say, but it really doesn't need to be much more complex than that, if you don't want it to be.
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Mr_Rieper
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Re: Monsters and Cities

Post by Mr_Rieper » Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:43 pm

While I'm aware that the RP before PvP rule exists for a reason, and monsters who do this should be reported, it's definitely an ACTIVE decision to walk into a settlement as a monster. When I say settlement, I mean the inner areas where exiles cannot go. If a monster decides to go that far into a settlement, they definitely know what they are doing.

I'm not fond of wanton PvP and the negative feelings that go with it, but really, if you tread that far into hostile ground, you should expect nothing less.

Anyway, I can understand and respect the DMs perspective on this. It seems to be fairly common lately though, and it is incredibly frustrating to have monster players upset at YOU for reacting with hostile RP to their presence. I feel like monsters should not be protected if they go into a specific few areas without a plan or backup. The middle of Cordor should be as dangerous as Baator for them.
DM GrumpyCat wrote:RP before PVP doesn't need to be a ten min conversation. It can be as short as 'Get out of this place, Monster Scum, or feel my blade!'. Now granted I'd advise giving said monster a few seconds to do as you say, but it really doesn't need to be much more complex than that, if you don't want it to be.
Monster players still (surprisingly) feel entitled to being treated at least somewhat respectfully in-RP, even when walking into the middle of a human settlement. The proposed change might be too harsh, but I feel something has to be done here. Clearly forum warnings are not discouraging this sort of thing. If there was a change in rules, regarding 2% of the areas in the module, the message might actually go through.

It accomplishes the same thing as a killscript but gives them the option to approach it in different ways, without physically barring them from entering. Therefore I feel it's less harsh than a killscript.
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Tourmaline
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Re: Monsters and Cities

Post by Tourmaline » Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:52 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong but you can emote being threatening if you don't think your character would actually talk to a monster. Or you can speak to another PC or even NPC pointedly about the monster in front of you. There's options to create a scene without direct conversation.

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Re: Monsters and Cities

Post by Mr_Rieper » Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:16 pm

Then again, I suppose Andunor has the opposite problem.

My solution probably won't solve much. Still, this is a very frustrating issue after everything that's happened on the server so far.
CosmicOrderV wrote:
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Be the change you want to see, and shape the server because of it. Players can absolutely help keep their fellow players accountable.

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susitsu
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Re: Monsters and Cities

Post by susitsu » Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:33 pm

Tourmaline wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but you can emote being threatening if you don't think your character would actually talk to a monster. Or you can speak to another PC or even NPC pointedly about the monster in front of you. There's options to create a scene without direct conversation.
^^

I mean the first problem is the players doing this whole walking into settlements no problemo mang thing. I think the removal of killscripts opens up both opportunities for roleplay and travel that would be otherwise absolutely impossible.

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Re: Monsters and Cities

Post by SwampFoot » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:34 pm

Another problem I see is monster or generally hostile people ignoring the NPC guards. When confronted these races should be immediately wary of the people who's actual job it is to kill you and your kind. Most times it's up to the PC to enforce the law, and unless a DM takes control the NPCs stand useless. That doesn't mean they should be ignored.

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Hunter548
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Re: Monsters and Cities

Post by Hunter548 » Wed Jun 28, 2017 12:11 am

If you run into a monster in the city, interrogate them. Why are they there? Where did they come from? Who do they serve? Are they scouting for a raid? Will they give you information for their life?

Boom, interactive and fun RP that is still hostile and can turn into PvP as would "make sense" if things go that direction, but also gives the monster an out that might be fun too.
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DM Rakshasa
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Re: Monsters and Cities

Post by DM Rakshasa » Wed Jun 28, 2017 12:19 am

I am going to point out that Andunor is a metropolis made up of not just monstrous characters - if a player is thinking of it as Menzoberranzan or Ched Nasad, where it is akin to what Udos Dro'xun or Urblexis Grond were, that is slightly incorrect. It is more like Eryndlyn, where the ruling idea is slavery and trade - even with surfacers, because coin is coin is coin.

If you are an Underdark native and determine that there is a surfacer walking through the city, you still need to roleplay with them before attacking. Anything else is still a breach of the Rules of Engagement.
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Re: Monsters and Cities

Post by Durvayas » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:20 am

Mr_Rieper wrote:While I'm aware that the RP before PvP rule exists for a reason, and monsters who do this should be reported, it's definitely an ACTIVE decision to walk into a settlement as a monster. When I say settlement, I mean the inner areas where exiles cannot go. If a monster decides to go that far into a settlement, they definitely know what they are doing.

I'm not fond of wanton PvP and the negative feelings that go with it, but really, if you tread that far into hostile ground, you should expect nothing less.

Anyway, I can understand and respect the DMs perspective on this. It seems to be fairly common lately though, and it is incredibly frustrating to have monster players upset at YOU for reacting with hostile RP to their presence. I feel like monsters should not be protected if they go into a specific few areas without a plan or backup. The middle of Cordor should be as dangerous as Baator for them.
DM GrumpyCat wrote:RP before PVP doesn't need to be a ten min conversation. It can be as short as 'Get out of this place, Monster Scum, or feel my blade!'. Now granted I'd advise giving said monster a few seconds to do as you say, but it really doesn't need to be much more complex than that, if you don't want it to be.
Monster players still (surprisingly) feel entitled to being treated at least somewhat respectfully in-RP, even when walking into the middle of a human settlement. The proposed change might be too harsh, but I feel something has to be done here. Clearly forum warnings are not discouraging this sort of thing. If there was a change in rules, regarding 2% of the areas in the module, the message might actually go through.

It accomplishes the same thing as a killscript but gives them the option to approach it in different ways, without physically barring them from entering. Therefore I feel it's less harsh than a killscript.

Monster PCs occasionally dabble in being mercenaries on the surface for nefarious people. What better job could, for example, a drow or hobgoblin or orog ask for than to get paid to slaughter surfacers? Spies are also a thing, as are assassins. Several different reasons a UD PC might enter a surface town, all of which require preparation and an escape plan. In shadier towns like Sibiyad and pre-nuke wharftown, encounters between UD and surface PCs were not uncommon.

Thats not to say monsters belong in settlements casually. Just being on the surface is inviting PvP, but its silly to even consider an idea like dispensing of the RP before PvP rule even in situations such as a monster caught skulking in a town. Think of the RP that could be gleaned from capture(interrogation or ransom) or the potential for corruption(an assassin or spy waves a bag of gold in a guard's face "You didn't see me" type stuff) and political meddling RP.

We players of monster races do have our reasons for going to the surface. Attacking our PCs on sight isn't even roleplay, given neither side would be able to type to emote. Beyond which, I suppose if you're looking for such extremes to prevent such RP, you'd be fine if we just started imploding every single surface PC in the UD that doesn't speak undercommon immediately after a single verbal warning?

*In undercommon:* "Recite the title of the drow mage school"
"... what?"
*implosion*

Sound fun for you? Because for us, it wouldn't be fun or interesting to be on an even shorter recieving end either, and certainly wouldn't lend itself to storytelling in the slightest.

That being said, unless a specific monster has an okay from the leader of said settlement(Eg: A drow merchant with(likely a very expensive) license to visit guldorand for trade purposes like importing wood en masse(And one would hope they'd hire some muscle to come along, getting more people involved)), then a monster PC indeed has no business being indignant if faced with hostility. Its normal, even expected, to have a face-off with someone if you linger near a settlement, much less inside of it.

Friendly kobolds, goblins(and tbh, I'm almost always hearing its one of those two), and orogs should expect hostile treatment even moreso, given their plentiful surface counterparts constantly harrassing and attacking settlements, mines, and roads. They are also monstrous in appearance, and are considered the vermin monster races. Drow, duergar, and svirfneblin are creatures that do not generally dwell on the surface at all, and should be greeted with a mix of suspicion(especially svirfs, being so ambiguous and reclusive), and aprehension(Just what the hell is a drow doing in ___?!, and like patriarchy said, they have an incredibly terrifying reputation, and also a reputation for being assassins and slavers. Duergar are known as ruthless merchants and slavers.) Drow and duergar do NOT come to the surface without some sort of purpose. Sighting one is usually a bad sign and is very often met with outright hostility, as well it should.

The onus is on the player of the monster to respect the above facts and roleplay accordingly. Run, not walk, from shadow to shadow. Stay out of sight. Have an escape plan. Wear a disguise. Your PC will never be welcome anywhere the sun shines, nor should it; Even in Sibiyad its been made quite clear that UD races are tolerated, not accepted. Expect PvP; Embrace it. And lastly, to my fellow UD players, have some damned common sense and take into account the NPCs. If you must enter a town, avoid the NPCs. Don't walk down main street smiling as though greeting the neighbors. You don't belong there. If your character has an int higher than 6 they should be well aware of this, and act accordingly. Skulk, be furtive, get what you came for and leave.

For you surface players, please, I ask this as someone who mains UD characters. Report to DMs the 'hugbolds' and friendly goblins that loiter inside a surface town. Report even the Eilistrean drow that walk into a town expecting, by some miracle, for the town not to grab its torches and pitchforks. If it seems silly, please, report it.
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Re: Monsters and Cities

Post by DM Always This Late » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:37 am

There has been a few comments about players ignoring NPC guards. I just want to say i love npc guards in all settlements and if you choose to ignore them, that may very quickly become a mistake for you.

General rule of thumb: Do what you will but be prepared for the consequences (good or bad)

If you are going to stroll through the sruface as a monster race don't be shocked when your met with swords drawn instead of hugs. Great great Conflict is possible without pvp or even if it comes to pvp, pvp is not the great evil to rp but like most things it has to be done responsibily.
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Re: Monsters and Cities

Post by FrozenSolid » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:46 am

I want to mention in this case Wharftown Militia being in Cordor is like monsters. It applies the same way. I know i have now drawn weapons on 4 characters Fae knew were affilated to Wharftown and aided them in some way. The guards may not know them but the PC armies do and it's entirely unrealistc to think you can just shrug off associating with the enemy of a city then expect that same city to not confront you. So same for monsters expect push back.

To add on! I have only pvpd one of the four. Did Fae have her bow in thei faces of all 4? Yes. But pvp never happened. It's possible to convey the " i am goijg to beat you up" threat withou actually doing the beating up. The rp was good and the tesion was felt without having to pvp

The point is you can have hostile confrontations without always pvping. And monster races should expect this unless they have a real good reason why they should be treated differently
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Re: Monsters and Cities

Post by Tourmaline » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:50 am

Durvayas wrote:[(especially svirfs, being so ambiguous and reclusive),.
Well, Arelith svirfs have a special lore and can be part of the Earthkin alliance so seeing them in those areas isn't all that unusual. Not that they should be bold and striding into Cordor like they own the place, they should still be who they are, but with any extremely timid (non-evil) race you have to be a somewhat unusual example and find people to interact with if you want to actually play the game. So.. Maybe they should be a different discussion, if even necessary.

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Re: Monsters and Cities

Post by FrozenSolid » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:14 am

I think you could blane monsters for being to "bold" but also blame none monstrrs for letting them get away with it. If surfacers rpd a hostiltiy more often and made and effort to confront the monsters there might be morenof a trend that makes sense
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Re: Monsters and Cities

Post by kittenblackfriends » Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:41 am

DM Always This Late wrote:There has been a few comments about players ignoring NPC guards. I just want to say i love npc guards in all settlements and if you choose to ignore them, that may very quickly become a mistake for you.
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Re: Monsters and Cities

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:24 pm

My normal encounter with monsters in places where they shouldn't be is me attempting to RP (I'll be honest, usually motivated by the RP before PvP rule.) and the monster ignoring me and walking/running away as if nothing had happened... or simply logging off!
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Re: Monsters and Cities

Post by LichBait » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:47 pm

Think that happens on both sides, heh.

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Re: Monsters and Cities

Post by gilescorey » Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:31 am

It's true. I've seen it happen while playing both surface and Underdark characters in a "hostile" situation. I wouldn't call either "side," so to speak, more prone to that behaviour than the other.

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Re: Monsters and Cities

Post by flower » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:29 pm

Well there is a little catch.

While i played good Drow the main basics were...act scared, or in any other way making you suspious, and you get killed.

My character had been aware of that. So the first thing to do when encountered Elf or anyone else, was enganging them in casual conversation (And I leave aside lore, where Eilsitraee wants her priests to act openly). Often walking up and healing/helping on road. Being friendly, casual and so on ensured noone ever acted hostile becuase when got to the point she is a Drow, already thought she is no threath.

Messengers and alike i found only in towns so i was forced to visit them, liking it or not. But in majority of cases she respected when being told to leave (and third of visits to towns were on invitation from their citizens).

You know what, as her religious duty she kept warning travellers to ask random persons meeting on road to show faces, so they arent put in place where their companion "suddenly" turns out to be a Drow often using herself as an example of their careless behave. But noone ever seem to také it to heart (but save god if you put into description you are a Drow, before you managed to write down few sentences people kept turning on hostile and being agressive even if your character was concealed!).

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