Piety Suggestion Megathread WIP

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I'm going to be posting the following in the Suggestions Thread, as a melting pot for all of the various piety suggestions over the years. I'm having trouble tracking all of them down, which is why I'm asking for help! If I'm missing any prominent ones that people can remember, I'd appreciate input so I can make the Master List.

The reason why I've tied everything together, is because Knowledge and Invention/Hearth and Home are still awful, awful in comparison to the less-awful Trickery and Deceit, and pale in comparison to War and Destruction, Nature, and Magic. With the recent changes to Resurrection/Raise Dead, there needs to be some movement on reworking Piety to making the selection of a character's patron deity not a hindrance to gameplay. So instead of creating another original suggestion, I thought time would be better spent if we bring all the many suggestions made.

Anyways, help/input would be appreciated. I didn't try to censor the suggestions made over the years based on feasibility, etc. (someone discussed that healing kits can't have a hook to trigger piety gains, for example, but idk). I'll be posting this over to the Suggestion Thread shortly.

If you have new suggestions, add them here too!

~~~

This thread seeks to consolidate all of the many piety suggestions. I apologize if there’s piecesmissing, please just let me know what it is so I can add it. Suggestions are grouped under General and the named Aspect.

General Suggestions

• I also think consecrating an altar should grant piety, and not consume it - though I imagine there could've been a balance/abuse justification for this feature.

• It would be cool though if you could donate magic blood or [insert item here] to an altar instead of always having to pray or cough up gold.

• Maybe add some unique qualifiers like, for sea deities, raise rp the more time you spend in sea/boat areas, stuff like that.

• Make the piety gains scale depending on whether the god is a major, intermediate, lesser, or whataveyou. Greater gods would gain you piety more at a time than lesser ones.

• Also I'd like to see the praying rewards altered. Like increased chance to find better treasure for trickery. Or a random boon for items made in crafting for knowledge and invention. This could be tied to a mode that can be toggled at altars (maybe by a priest) where you will consume significantly more piety but allows small chances for these divine interventions.

• Gain more piety when clerics lead rituals/prayers.

• - Altar can have a container function. Items stored there grant piety based on predetermined values. E.g. Magic blood = 200 gold, dragon blood = 1,000 gold, gems and so on. Items could remain through reset. A different PC removing an item from the offering might suffer the wrath of that deity, maybe a piety loss, XP loss, or lightning bolt to the face. Rewards for stealing, but huge risks also.

• Specific items working better for specific deities. E.g. Blood/meat for Malar, nuts/berries for Silvanus, crafted mechanics or parts for Gond, artworks for Sune.

• Desecrating an altar could take place using items, e.g. Placing necromantic items on holy shrines, placing holy symbols on unholy shrines.

• Have offering your XP as an alternative method of making a sacrifice, representing whatever personal sacrifice you'd like to RP it as.

• Consecration/desecration being open to all characters, however in a significantly time/piety consuming manner compared to those who are clerics or who have gift of holy/unholy.

War & Destruction

• Killing blows give less piety - 0.5% to 0.1%

• All Kills granting Combat EXP + 0.1?%

• Rage Use + 0.5% (Symphony)

• Bounty Head Redeemed + 0.5%

• Evocation Spell cast + 0.1%

Hearth & Home

• +3 Piety per hour in [Rest] Areas and Areas that are considered living quarters.+

• +0.5 Piety per 50 HP healed on allies. to just straight up +0.1 per 10 HP healed on allies. Remove the kits (because this would count for it). The 50 threshold is too high for low level characters to benefit from it, but 10 isn't out of reach.

• +0.5 Piety for the removal of negative effects on allies.

• +0.5 Piety for buffs to allies

• Healing kits give 0.5+ piety.

• Gain piety by crafting food.

• Regeneration spell line gives piety on cast.

• Spells that would apply a piety increase also do not cost any piety, as well other semi-related spells.

• Scale the piety gained with the circle of the spell. Circle*2/10 = Piety Gained

• Add more/higher end healing items akin to healing slaves (cure minor wounds) that make it worth carrying a million things to heal people with.

• Successful -guard AI retarget to self + 0.?%

• End "state" updates in [Rest] area + 0.5% (-0.1% from state)

• End "state" updates near campfire + 0.5% (-0.1% from state)

• Spent Cooking Crafting Point + 0.1%

• Food/Drink % replenished + 0.1% (per 1% gain)

• Something for Hearth and Home that allows non-clerics to meaningfully gain piety would be nice. Crafting fixtures, maybe?

Knowledge & Invention

• Gain piety for “consulting bookshelves” similar to how druids get piety tending to plants

• Have a chance, tied to piety and possibly only occuring every few RL hours, similar to -prays, to create two projects instead of one.

• grant .5% for successful lore checks,

• .5% for each use of bardsong,

• and .1% for every crafting project started

• Finding new areas should give piety

• K&I would be helped big time just by limiting the god save to something that's higher than a particular value.

• Item repairs +0.1% (per 1 point)

• Portal Use + 1.0%

• "Writing" item created from blank paper + 1.0%

• Receive +0.5 (.1?) for reading new notices on notice boards

• Ability to toggle godsaves off/on

Trickery & Deceit

• Gain 0.5+ for every lock picked, and trap disarmed.

• Gain 0.1+ per X amount of time in stealth.

• grant .5% for successful pickpocket attempts (PC or NPC) and .5% for casting Illusion spells.

• Up piety gain for successful -disguise checks. I think 0.2% could be enough. 0.4% being the top mark for it though and that might be a little heavy weighted.

• Successful Poison Application + 1.0%

• Sneak attack killing blow + 0.5%

• Ability to toggle godsaves off/on

Nature

• .5% for killing aberrations and outsiders

• End "state" updates in "Natural" environment +0.5% (-0.1% from state)

• Successful Animal Empathy +0.5% (Symphony)

• ConstructUndead Kills (probably also all deaths granting exp)

Magic

• Essence Used 1.0%

• Successful Basin Improvement +1.0%

[/list]

Links:
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=10767
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=11295&p=93356&hili ... ion#p93356
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=10790&p=88911&hili ... ion#p88911
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=8711&p=71552&hilit ... ion#p71552
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8846&p=72559&hilit ... ion#p72559

[susitsu]

Ability to toggle godsaves on Trickery and Deceit as well as on Knowledge and Invention.

[AllTheWorld]

I'd like to see the ability to sacrifice something other than gold. Already mentioned as one of the suggestions, but here are some ideas for how:
- Altar can have a container function. Items stored there grant piety based on predetermined values. E.g. Magic blood = 200 gold, dragon blood = 1,000 gold, gems and so on.
- Items could remain through reset. A different PC removing an item from the offering might suffer the wrath of that deity, maybe a piety loss, XP loss, or lightning bolt to the face. Rewards for stealing, but huge risks also.
- Specific items working better for specific deities. E.g. Blood/meat for Malar, nuts/berries for Silvanus, crafted mechanics or parts for Gond, artworks for Sune.
- Desecrating an altar could take place using items, e.g. Placing necromantic items on holy shrines, placing holy symbols on unholy shrines.
- Have offering your XP as an alternative method of making a sacrifice, representing whatever personal sacrifice you'd like to RP it as.

Another suggestion: Consecration/desecration being open to all characters, however in a significantly time/piety consuming manner compared to those who are clerics or who have gift of holy/unholy. Something such as praying at an unconsecrated altar for a number of IG hours, or having a group to pray at it, or making a very significant offering. Desecration being something interactive and requiring resources, such as slaying a deer and leaving the hide and meat in a gruesome display on or around an altar.

[theCountofMonteCristo]

for H&H, change the: "+0.5 Piety per 50 HP healed on allies." to just straight up +0.1 per 10 HP healed on allies. Remove the kits (because this would count for it). The 50 threshold is too high for low level characters to benefit from it, but 10 isn't out of reach.

[Hunter548]

Something for Hearth and Home that allows non-clerics to meaningfully gain piety would be nice. Crafting fixtures, maybe?

[OverTheSeaToSkye]

Something for Hearth and Home that allows non-clerics to meaningfully gain piety would be nice. Crafting fixtures, maybe?

Or even that allows clerics to. It's a pain having to regularly take time out to pray at an altar, tbh. Especially for high level clerics

[Irongron]

I'll add in a suggestion here, as I've been considering this change to deities, basically only divine classes would choose one. The rest would would get the bonuses (saves/piety gains etc) depending on where they've been praying. So if you pray 40 percent of the time to a war deity then 40 percent of the time you'd get war bonuses. Every pc would have have all aspects but the weighting would be different according to their actions.

Where possible deities would be grouped into pantheons, which would also have all aspects, but like on characters the weighting of each would be adjusted according their theme. So for instance the Furies would be skewed towards War & Destruction.

I think this would allow PCS to approach faith in a less rigid manner and be able to pray to multiple gods.

[If Valor Were Inches]

I really like that suggestion because:

1): Gods not on the list but that would fall in a pantheon could be RPed.
2): Allows for multiple worship of gods, particularly for those who observe one race.
3): Allow clerics to be of a pantheon (Maybe?), fitting for Triadists.

[One Two Three Five]

Polytheism polytheism!

Also, uh, if this goes through (even if it doesn't?) maybe take a look at Harper Priest? It's a strictly worse version of harper paragon, the only defining feature is getting all aspects.

[Irongron]

Sure, my idea is that if you're going into battle, attend a ceremony held by a priest of Tempus, or if you're looking to do some enchantment then consult a priest of Mystra.

Though I didn't really want to derail this thread. The suggestions in the original post are definitely worth consideration. As it stands the utility of the different aspects is wildly different.

[Diilicious]

Knowledge and invention should get +0.5 for reading new notices on notice boards too

[cptcuddlepants]

I'll add in a suggestion here, as I've been considering this change to deities, basically only divine classes would choose one. The rest would would get the bonuses (saves/piety gains etc) depending on where they've been praying. So if you pray 40 percent of the time to a war deity then 40 percent of the time you'd get war bonuses. Every pc would have have all aspects but the weighting would be different according to their actions.

I might be reading this wrong, but this looks like it'd be an even bigger reason not to play divine classes.

It'd be a situation were people are all "Hey, I want sweet buffs, I need a cleric of X!" but there are no clerics of X because there's absolutely no reason to be a cleric since picking a cleric (or any other divine class) is detrimental and limiting. Mechanics-wise, there's nothing a cleric can do that another class can't do better. There's already no reason to play one - giving less reasons to pick cleric, or giving more reasons to play anything that's not one, would only make things worse.

...Come to think of it, I play one of four? clerics on the surface that I know of.

[susitsu]

if more reason is added to force people to pray, i'll shoot myself in the foot

[Iceborn]

I'll hold the shotgun.

[Vaenthil]

I'll add in a suggestion here, as I've been considering this change to deities, basically only divine classes would choose one. The rest would would get the bonuses (saves/piety gains etc) depending on where they've been praying. So if you pray 40 percent of the time to a war deity then 40 percent of the time you'd get war bonuses. Every pc would have have all aspects but the weighting would be different according to their actions

I think this would allow PCS to approach faith in a less rigid manner and be able to pray to multiple gods.

How would this work for characters who selected the gift of holy/unholy?

[Queen Titania]

I'll add in a suggestion here, as I've been considering this change to deities, basically only divine classes would choose one. The rest would would get the bonuses (saves/piety gains etc) depending on where they've been praying. So if you pray 40 percent of the time to a war deity then 40 percent of the time you'd get war bonuses. Every pc would have have all aspects but the weighting would be different according to their actions.

I might be reading this wrong, but this looks like it'd be an even bigger reason not to play divine classes.

It'd be a situation were people are all "Hey, I want sweet buffs, I need a cleric of X!" but there are no clerics of X because there's absolutely no reason to be a cleric since picking a cleric (or any other divine class) is detrimental and limiting. Mechanics-wise, there's nothing a cleric can do that another class can't do better. There's already no reason to play one - giving less reasons to pick cleric, or giving more reasons to play anything that's not one, would only make things worse.

...Come to think of it, I play one of four? clerics on the surface that I know of.

There is a lot more than just four clerics.

[Ork]

I'm not a fan of mechanically insentiving RP. It's already shallow and a chore/bore as is to find someone to repair equipment.

[Trunx]

I'll add in a suggestion here, as I've been considering this change to deities, basically only divine classes would choose one. The rest would would get the bonuses (saves/piety gains etc) depending on where they've been praying. So if you pray 40 percent of the time to a war deity then 40 percent of the time you'd get war bonuses. Every pc would have have all aspects but the weighting would be different according to their actions.

I might be reading this wrong, but this looks like it'd be an even bigger reason not to play divine classes.

It'd be a situation were people are all "Hey, I want sweet buffs, I need a cleric of X!" but there are no clerics of X because there's absolutely no reason to be a cleric since picking a cleric (or any other divine class) is detrimental and limiting. Mechanics-wise, there's nothing a cleric can do that another class can't do better. There's already no reason to play one - giving less reasons to pick cleric, or giving more reasons to play anything that's not one, would only make things worse.

...Come to think of it, I play one of four? clerics on the surface that I know of.

You keep whining about clerics, but it's not that clerics are bad, you just can't build them. It's not an underpowered class.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Okay, I've updated the consolidation to reflect I've received up this point. Thanks!

I'll just share a few thoughts:

I agree with Ork, 12345, Iceborn, and susitsu that praying in front of an altar should not be relied upon as a primary way of gaining piety. It is not waiting around to increase a stat that can vary in importance for your character. If you have to sit at your computer for X minutes while you roleplay prayer by yourself, there's only so much of that you can endure.

However, I think praying should remain vital. What if you godsaves are "blocked" after one occurs, and can only be reopened by praying at an altar? Even for just 1 tick.

I personally love the piety mechanic. I think it's a really cool way of personalizing faith in Arelith, but also giving it a lot of weight. I want to see piety have more uses as a kind of "currency." But in turn, I think you should be able to more readily collect throughout the actions of our character, and during your game session.

Barring irongron's suggestions, I think we should see more uses of piety for non-clerics, and divine might/shield users. I would love to see the pray mechanic expanded.

However, going back, I think Aspects really need to be re-evaluated. I think we need to go back to the core of "what sort of style of play/style of faith are they trying to reward?".

War & Destruction rewards combat. Magic rewards casting spells. Nature rewards being a gardener. But what does Trickery & Deceit reward - by being in disguise the whole time?
Hearth & Home rewards being a "support" style of character, both in combat and in roleplay.
Knowledge & Invention rewards being a crafter, basically.

Going off a lot of the suggestions I've seen, I think we can rework these to fit broader styles of roleplay.
1. Adventuring & exploration.
2. Subterfuge, stealth, and disguise.
3. Statecraft, mercantilism, and knowledge-discovery.
4. Healing, guardianship, and vigilance.
5. Nature, the wilderness, and survival.
6. Magic, arcana, and eldritch.

I think each of the 1-6 should have a "primary" way of gaining piety, that might be 1 action (last hitting an enemy, casting a spell) or 2/3 (healing, casting spells on party members, -guarding an ally). These Primary methods provide very small amounts of piety, like 0.1 or 0.05, but you'll constantly be doing these things.
Instead, the focus of Aspects is on big Secondary actions that provide much larger values, like 0.5% or +1.0%, that are perhaps less passive actions - discovering a new zone, picking a lock, finish crafting an item, etc.

Instead of providing multiple Aspects to deities, like we do, there should instead be overlap in methods of gaining Piety. Like #2 and #5 might both reward Piety for crafting a trap.

But yeah, I think Hearth and Home needs to be interpreted more broadly as "those characters who like supporting/providing for others." Knowledge and Invention should be more broadly seen as "those players who like being involved in settlement systems and politics." Nature should not just be "these are for rangers and druids."

[cptcuddlepants]

There is a lot more than just four clerics.

As my timing would have it, I ran into two clerics standing next to each other a few minutes after I posted

[High Primate]

I also think consecrating an altar should grant piety, and not consume it - though I imagine there could've been a balance/abuse justification for this feature.

Disagree. By allowing you to consecrate an altar, your deity is doing you a service, so you repay that service by praying to them.

Make the piety gains scale depending on whether the god is a major, intermediate, lesser, or whataveyou. Greater gods would gain you piety more at a time than lesser ones.

This would result in less diversity of faiths, as people would choose the greater deities in order to streamline their leveling. Followers of non-greater deities would have trouble forming factions as members of the same faith would probably be hard to find, or non-existent. As usual, there's a correlation between what people find mechanically convenient and the in-universe environment. (Case in point: that time when the server was overrun with Warlocks.)

Consecration/desecration being open to all characters, however in a significantly time/piety consuming manner compared to those who are clerics or who have gift of holy/unholy.

I don't think this makes sense from an in-universe perspective. Why would everyone have the ability to consecrate and desecrate altars? This involves the channeling of divine power, so it makes sense that it would be restricted to clerics and those with the holy/unholy gift, who can siphon divine power. If you want to desecrate or consecrate an altar, then you should seek out a cleric friend to do it for you. This creates IG interaction.

[Diilicious]

I also think consecrating an altar should grant piety, and not consume it - though I imagine there could've been a balance/abuse justification for this feature.

Disagree. By allowing you to consecrate an altar, your deity is doing you a service, so you repay that service by praying to them.

if people cant worship them then they fade into obscurity and lose power. They are simply giving you the means to perform a service that they need to remain powerful, they arent doing you a service. so really, it shouldnt cost anything, nor should it give you anything.

[One Two Three Five]

Gonna agree here. You're spreading your deity's influence, not stealing their life force or something. Although this maybe has to do with piety being perceived as God Energy that fuels spells. I don't get why you'd be less pious for consecrating an altar.

[High Primate]

I'm still not persuaded. The altar primarily benefits YOU. It gives you access to spells, god-rezzes, etc. By allowing you to consecrate an altar in their name, your deity intervenes in wordly affairs in order to bestow boons on you. To my mind, this puts you in a relationship of beholdenness with the deity: by working through you to consecrate an altar, your deity is giving your character succor.

[susitsu]

You're just working as a conduit to your deities largely non-sentient and vast power, imo. It's just an application or movement of it to generate more power.

Another thing of my opinion is the spells and everything else you can possibly list, Primate, comes from veneration and for powerful clerics, immense faith and even their own power. How else can a godless cleric exist, after-all?

Every single little action you take in a god's name is just more power generated for them. I'm not even totally sure god's really...expend literally anything doing this.

Rising people to demigod status and bestowing others with championship status...

It's a lot more about the message. They do exactly what benefits them because it benefits them.