Update - Raising the dead

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MissEvelyn
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Re: Update - Raising the dead

Post by MissEvelyn » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:56 am

The idea that you can't pray at any other altar than one consecrated to your deity is such a wrong and misunderstood concept in the Forgotten Realms. The idea that you can't even pray to another deity than yours is wrong.
People in FR are polytheistic. It's very common to mutter prayers to many different gods, depending on your situation. And yes, even people with evil in their hearts acknowledge the different gods and their domains.

You don't need to consecrate your altar to a different deity to pray for your friend, unless you're playing a monster race. Which, in that case, you should probably run back down to the Underdark and revive your buddy there.


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Re: Update - Raising the dead

Post by Hunter548 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:44 am

While that's true, it's ignoring the number of characters for whom praying to, say, Malar (Or Auril, or w/e god has a dungeon of people to murder for EXP/Money) is a non-starter. Good aligned characters, probably any of the religious classes, most neutral characters, etc.
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Re: Update - Raising the dead

Post by Peppermint » Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:12 am

Subdual should, IMO, work with any damage type -- and incur no penalties. It's just an avenue for creating more roleplay, afterall. Why hinder it?

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Re: Update - Raising the dead

Post by Tarkus the dog » Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:45 am

Peppermint wrote:Subdual should, IMO, work with any damage type -- and incur no penalties. It's just an avenue for creating more roleplay, afterall. Why hinder it?
i have COME here to say that I CONCUR ENTIRELY

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Re: Update - Raising the dead

Post by susitsu » Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:49 am

yay people are agreeing with me

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Re: Update - Raising the dead

Post by Yma23 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:10 am

It's no secret that I really dislike this change to the Death system. I'll run through the problems I have with it.

1) It makes clerics invaluble to a party. Not 'important' not 'useful.' Absolutely invalube. No class should be 'mandatory' to adventuring.

2) Low level (pre level 9) groups have almost no way of raising their dead mid adventure. Even if they have a cleric, the cleric won't have raise dead. I doubt low levels would be able to afford 10k for a scroll. That just leves alters.

3) Getting the body -to- an altar, just to continue, could be a major pain in the backside. People were complaining about the 20min pvp wait for respawn, wait until they experience the 30min+ wait to be dragged to an altar. A delay that won't just effect the dead, but also the other party members. If you have a limited time to play, like real life obligations, such delays could ruin a trip for you too, even if you're not the one who died.

4) Altars in Dungeons – 'Oh Auril, after slaughtering 1000 of your high priestesses, I, Joe, Priest of Kossoth, ask you to raise our Elven friend who has fallen by uh... your hands actually!' - yes, good IC sense that. Great.

5) After large pvp battles, unless the winning, surviving side has a cleric, then chances are the majority of the dead are going to be just left to rot (at best) or simply beheaded. No 'easy' raises for you any more!

6) Also again, without a cleric, any capture rp may well involve a good long wait in the fugue whilst you are dragged elsewhere. To be fair this isn't neccesarly a huge change, but it is something to consider

7) Parties can no longer afford to be inclusive to all sorts. It used to be that a high levelish group could drag along a mid level, or even a low level, just for the fun of the RP. Alas again, unless there is the mandetory cleric, this will simply mean that the low level dies, looses a tonne of xp, and gets left behind.

8) Want to join a Dm quest at a low level? BWAHAHAHAHAHA! Yeah right! DM quests tend to end up a bit vicious to players because, unless they are specifically tailored for low levels, it's high levels that rule the roost. Now DM's running 'open' quests, must either put up with only spawning goblins for level 30's, or will have to accept that your level 6's will simply not be able to get involved, because anything you spawn will kill them, and, again 'unless there's a cleric' they will simply die, and be removed entirely from the quest.

9) Parties cannot be made on the fly any more. Again you either need to have a convenient cleric, or it ain't happeng. Those people who have fun grinding cliques can quickly have this one guy roll up a cleric, and Yay! They're away! People who try to gather groups via rp however, may find themselves lost in the cold.

10) What happens if the Cleric is the one that dies in the adventure? Again unless they've popped 10k on a scroll and given it to someone else – the trip is basicaly over.

11) Want to play a Cleric for the roleplay? To do neat things around Cordor? Be prepared to be peppered with requests for adventure constantly as people seek you for simply being a Res Bot..

12) Want to level super fast? Play a cleric. Everyone will now need you to adventure with. And this is good right? Because for a long time the mantra of any change was, 'Yes but how does this improve clerics...?' They're such a weak, underpowered, wallflower class that really needed this boost.

13) It is now officialy better to solo in most circumstances. Again unless you have a cleric, the chances are if you character dies in a group you will be re-spawning. (It's that or delay the entire group and gaze out at nothing for ages.) So if you're going to have to respawn anyway, why not just Solo? You get to keep all the gold if you survive, you do it on whatever time scale you can afford. It just makes more sense.

14) Arelith dungeon balance is often a little mean. The last adventure I went on, someone died twice to an electric trap we couldn't even see or detect. Monsters have ridiculous power levels to cope with the fact certain people are just very, very good at this game and thus need a challenge. But it means the less power built people, and/or those who arn't as good in pve, get left behind. That used to mean that we just lost a bit of xp to our deaths, didn't level as fast, all good. I honestly don't begrudge this much. However now it literally means 'left behind.' I rarely get invited to dungeon crawls, and when I do it's almost always because I provide fun rp, rather than much mechanical use. Now I anticipate that I won't get invited to any, being just a lump and a hinderence to any party I join. And even if I do get invited, again – 'unless there's a cleric' I will probably die mid way through, and have to end pre-maturely anyway.

15) Have I said again how baffled I am that this change has made Clerics so utterly invaluable? I mean really? I like Clerics, but so much of what I'm saying here comes down to 'You need a cleric to adventure.' 'You need a cleric to capture people' 'You need a cleric to be able to make roleplay groups on adventure.' I'm really not one for mechanical balance, I rarely start yelling 'zomg such and such is overpowered' but this truly does make Clerics ridiculously OP. An utter essential for any adventuring. And as this server is supposed to be mostly about action and adventure, this seems somewhat unfair.

16) This is really just a big 'screw you' to those people who make adventuring parties out of In Character friends. Who don't have lots of time to play, due to RL needs. Who don't have power builds. It won't force people to roleplay death better, it'll just make death more of a kick in the teeth and an inconvenience. I don't often adventure, but I do love it. I very rarely dislike changes as much as I dislike this, but this will likely prevent me from adventuring in the long term, and if/when I do it will be because I have friends playing clerics whom I can contact on skype/Discord to beg to help me level. Because that's how this is going to work from now on. Not naturally meeting characters up and going on fun romps, but quick ooc meet up so grab xp.

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Lorkas
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Re: Update - Raising the dead

Post by Lorkas » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:15 am

This doesn't make clerics invaluable. How often do you people die on Arelith? Death shouldn't be a normal part of a typical adventure. Clerics will be nice security in the case things do go belly-up, but things can be done without them. That's a pretty good spot for them to be in.

Even if it is normal for your groups, go find one of the items that has casts of Raise Dead but isn't a scroll. Or check bookshelves and you'll find some free Raise Dead scrolls now and then.

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Re: Update - Raising the dead

Post by SwampFoot » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:20 am

Is it possible to have an altar to whatever opposing God to that dungeon's God placed strategically outside but near a dungeon? The walk would be a little longer, but might offer less time to raise an ally than a full retreat to town for those characters that would out-right be against stopping at that dungeon's altar.

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Re: Update - Raising the dead

Post by Horselords » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:21 am

Yma: While some of what you say is on point, I don't buy the "clerics are mandatory" thing. There's tons of raise dead scrolls in chests, tons of books of the deads in the libraries (which are being farmed and will be even more). And then we should take into account that people don't get rekt that bad. Arelith isn't easy mode, but it's not a constant slaughter either. The purpose of the update is to make death more serious, well, kudo to them: you can't go to red dragon isle at level 15 for the lolz, you will have to take the trip seriously. And starting at level 5, you always have the choice to stay in "secure areas" until you have a party powerful enough to tackle greater threats.

And at the end of the day, you can just respawn rather than wait, like it is right now.

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Lorkas
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Re: Update - Raising the dead

Post by Lorkas » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:22 am

Better to focus mostly on adding undedicated altars that can be used by any faith, in my opinion.

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Nereida
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Re: Update - Raising the dead

Post by Nereida » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:23 am

I believe death should be meaningful, even if it's a little inconvenient OOCly. A player should avoid their character's death at all costs in most cases, and I believe this change will help a lot in giving credibility to the setting in that aspect.

Scroll availability will still be plentiful I dare say. Even if the cost is a little prohibitive from crafting sources, they still drop as loot often enough, as well as a few resurrection items that are floating around.

Personally, I would see the piety cost of using scrolls reduced. 50/75% is too much especially since you're both spending your scroll and raising someone else, not yourself. Perhaps halving the numbers would be a good step.
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Re: Update - Raising the dead

Post by One Two Three Five » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:27 am

5) After large pvp battles, unless the winning, surviving side has a cleric, then chances are the majority of the dead are going to be just left to rot (at best) or simply beheaded. No 'easy' raises for you any more!
Respawn, take the 400 xp loss, be ready to go off on an adventure in 12 minutes.
Or: Maybe everyone takes killing other pcs a bit more seriously.
now officialy better to solo in most circumstances.

I've found this to be the case for basically everything up till 15-17 or so, for years. Make that money.
Arelith dungeon balance is often a little mean
Easy raises are a band-aid on top of this. I agree in principle, but instead of easy raises, dungeon balance could definitely use a look, especially now that balancing for weavemasters doesn't need doing.
You need a cleric to capture people
Stop cutting people's heads off to capture them. The subdual system needs a look, not easy raises.

And, uh, I'd rather eat a 500 xp respawn and be ready to go in under 20 minutes again, instead of taking a long-Snuggybear stat penalty that puts me out of the game for bare minimum an hour- or, god forbid, the old, like, 3k+ xp penalties for respawning.

I will note this:
makes clerics invaluble
I mean, yeah. They're direct servants of forgotten realms' incredibly active and involved gods. However, some good mitigation for this might be, idk, some new subclasses for divine characters: fixed? favored souls, maybe grab some cleric subclasses in the form of Pathfinder's Inquisitor and Oracle, a paladin type that can raise, etc.

Alternatively, for dungeons, because I'm not touching the 'kill-raise-to-capture' nonsense: Increase the negative health 'downed' state to scale past -10, scaled perhaps with a character's CON score. This'll give people more room to like, not get auto-smote at -5 because that bandit just will not stop swinging.

Add in some smelling salts craftables that move people from negatives to 1+heal skill hp instantly.

As for the rest.. Look at it this way. If you know you're going to go fight something that summons aid, you're going to equip yourself with word of faith, banishment, dismissal, etc, or someone that can do it..

If you know you're going to get hit with death magic, you'd equip yourself with death ward, shadow shield, or bring someone that can cast those..

If you know you're going out into the deadly wilderness, and you refuse to bring a priest, and you refuse to pray at any altar other than your own, and you refuse to pay the money to get a couple scrolls... well, you're an unprepared adventurer, and your survival is, well, not necessarily unlikely, but perhaps undeserved.

:arrow: add some wilderness altars that aren't dedicated to anyone. Road altars erected by wandering Shaundakulites, even. Shaundakulians? Shaundas.

Hell, it's probably LESS rough on lowbies because I cannot remember the last time a party of level fives I was with was willing to drop a significant (for them) chunk of change on someone who's going to take a 75 xp loss and be good to go in half a second. (Also: Dragging lowbies through high level content having repercussions is a negative in your list? for real?)
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Re: Update - Raising the dead

Post by Nekonecro » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:38 pm

Lorkas wrote:How often do you people die on Arelith? Death shouldn't be a normal part of a typical adventure.
I'm sorry, but when was the last time you went to some of the higher end dungeons with random people? Death is very common there.

I'm also gonna hold my hand up here and point out that my character who's faithless can never ever raise anyone every again.

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Re: Update - Raising the dead

Post by yellowcateyes » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:52 pm

A few thoughts:

1) Subdual system could use a revisit in order to promote capture RP. Not everyone is a monk, nor is one always readily available.

2) Bending character to fit in with random adventuring groups is already all-too-common a phenomenon. Given how difficult it is to find clerics of certain faiths, and especially one of your level, there's a danger that more characters will put aside IC grievances and conflicts just to grind with whichever cleric is presently available. Sometimes, we all really shouldn't be getting along.

3) Making adventurers more risk-adverse is not necessarily a good thing. It promotes circular grinding in familiar and efficient areas, rather than taking a chance exploring an area where death is a real possibility. They're called adventures, after all, and not low-risk meat-grinding.
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Re: Update - Raising the dead

Post by susitsu » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:55 pm

In regards to death in dungeons: Eh. I go around soloing a rogue and I die extremely rarely. It's just super expensive and tedious sometimes. Maybe you should rush less.

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Re: Update - Raising the dead

Post by pigman » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:09 pm

Nekonecro wrote:
Lorkas wrote:How often do you people die on Arelith? Death shouldn't be a normal part of a typical adventure.
I'm sorry, but when was the last time you went to some of the higher end dungeons with random people? Death is very common there.

I'm also gonna hold my hand up here and point out that my character who's faithless can never ever raise anyone every again.

pretty sure faithlessness isn't supported RP wise considering that in FR the gods have factual existence and regularly play a part in the world that cannot be denied. So you don't have to be devout but the gods do exist and you can ask for help. or not but that is snowflake syndrome rather than a mechanical failure...

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Re: Update - Raising the dead

Post by Trunx » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:10 pm

pigman wrote:
Nekonecro wrote:
Lorkas wrote:How often do you people die on Arelith? Death shouldn't be a normal part of a typical adventure.
I'm sorry, but when was the last time you went to some of the higher end dungeons with random people? Death is very common there.

I'm also gonna hold my hand up here and point out that my character who's faithless can never ever raise anyone every again.

pretty sure faithlessness isn't supported RP wise considering that in FR the gods have factual existence and regularly play a part in the world that cannot be denied. So you don't have to be devout but the gods do exist and you can ask for help. or not but that is snowflake syndrome rather than a mechanical failure...
Faithlessness rarely means the character doesn't believe the gods exist.

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Re: Update - Raising the dead

Post by pigman » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:11 pm

so they can still petition the gods for a raise, whether they like the gods or not.

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Re: Update - Raising the dead

Post by gilescorey » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:19 pm

One Two Three Five wrote:(Also: Dragging lowbies through high level content having repercussions is a negative in your list? for real?)
I can recall a lot of times I've taken lower level people through dungeons as a higher levelled character because I didn't want to exclude them from faction RP. Not every dungeon run is one solely for XP purposes; that gripe is perfectly legitimate to my eyes, but it's also one I think wholly incompatible with the way the system works. There's no real way I could think of to reconcile the two.

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Re: Update - Raising the dead

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:35 pm

gilescorey wrote:
One Two Three Five wrote:(Also: Dragging lowbies through high level content having repercussions is a negative in your list? for real?)
I can recall a lot of times I've taken lower level people through dungeons as a higher levelled character because I didn't want to exclude them from faction RP. Not every dungeon run is one solely for XP purposes; that gripe is perfectly legitimate to my eyes, but it's also one I think wholly incompatible with the way the system works. There's no real way I could think of to reconcile the two.
Gilescory and Yma are on the money here, as this instance often occurs around faction roleplay, and you never want to exclude someone based on level. Its a sour affair, and disenfranchises lowbies, and newer players. But I guess the alternative is you just can't drag lowbies around without more care and attention now.

My question is, how hardcoded is the -10HP = Death thing? This has been changed in Pathfinder and 5th Edition to take into account a character's Constitution score. Sometimes it can be very difficult to get to a fallen party member because pathfinding mechanics can be really frustrating, especially around doors and hallways. Maybe could we consider changing this, if possible, to allow party members more time to reach their party member and stabilize them?

... also, how possible is it to make a -stabilize command? That if you're in X radius of a party member, you can make a Heal check, and if you make it, they stabilize? Because I think at the moment, unless you heal them back to 1hp, your party member will continue to take -1?

If not, it would still be a cool mechanic, to reflect what you can do in PnP.

I like the death changes, but I think giving more breathing room might help.
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Re: Update - Raising the dead

Post by Beard Master Flex » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:44 pm

I think this is a fantastic update! Death is always a serious concern while adventuring and not something an adventurer should be encountering as per their daily routine. Should it happen however, divine magic is the only recourse and such magic shouldn't be purchased at the equivalent to Bendir Walmart for the price of a few Cat's Grace potions or a bundle of arrows.

From an OOC prospective outside of PVP I've never really encountered more than a few player deaths in my party's outside of someone dragging low levels somewhere with AoE spamming monsters they probably should never have been in the first place... the result to that situation is to raise that person 3 or 4 times and I don't think that's helping anyone's immersion at that point.

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Re: Update - Raising the dead

Post by Tourmaline » Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:06 pm

I don't have a preference either way on the system itself but I disagree that death is uncommon. Those players who know every nook and cranny including the game's quirks can avoid a lot of it but there's also such thing as lag, internet dropouts, extremely unlucky series of rolls, invisible monsters who can't be targeted, tough bosses dragged ten areas away to lower level areas, black screen bugs, summons attacking party members bugs-- it happens. This doesn't mean I think anything needs to change, but maybe the veterans do need to remember those who are still finding their way around a very non-intuitive game.

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Re: Update - Raising the dead

Post by Peppermint » Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:39 pm

I'm not going to comment on whether I like the update one way or the other. There are some great aspects of it, as well as some legitimate criticisms.

I do expect there to be a disconnect here based on players' styles, though. I'd expect it to hit more casual players as well as faction leaders the hardest (the latter, because they tend to spend far more time enabling casual players than most of the playerbase), whereas players with other styles and priorities are less likely to feel 'aversely' impacted.

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Re: Update - Raising the dead

Post by Stath » Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:23 am

I like the changes. But i also feel that it shreks casuals and new players whom may be finding their feet. Maybe levels under 7 could be raised with less hassle, or something.
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Re: Update - Raising the dead

Post by Peppermint » Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:39 am

I rather like the idea of doing this:

1. Raise Dead - Reverted to old behavior, but now has a level cap (e.g. level 10?). Cheap.
2. Resurrection - Same restrictions as Raise Dead has now. Now super expensive.

Though it's not my project, only an idea I'm tossing out there for consideration.

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