Unlimited GSF Spells

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Kizat
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Unlimited GSF Spells

Post by Kizat » Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:09 am

From what I remember Wizards and Sorcerers were given unlimited minor spells so they could "contribute", and I use the term very loosely, something in combat. Clerics, Druids and Bards weren't given something similar because of their superior BAB making melee an option.

So.....Now that Wizards can get just as good if not better AB bonuses than the likes of Druids through buffs etc perhaps it might be time to review this, perhaps adding something to them rather than taking toys away.

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Re: Unlimited GSF Spells

Post by milosr » Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:21 am

A simple solution, Make ALL the classes have 3/4 AB, and give every class unlimited spells per day.

P.S. I AM KIDDING, PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS!

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Re: Unlimited GSF Spells

Post by caldura firebourne » Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:33 pm

Well actually druids pretty well fill their own niche, but the RP of a druid could be improved by giving some mechanical benefit to non totems or druids that don't multiclass as monk

Without making them insanely more powerful I would suggest something along the lines of hostile animals "not magical creatures" becoming neutral to the druid if their animal empathy beats a dc of half of the creatures empathy DC plus 10 for every alignment step away from the creature's own alignment, meaning true neutral druids have a better chance of calming the animals than LN druid monks

Just off the top of my head
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Re: Unlimited GSF Spells

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:48 pm

I'd love to see druids and clerics have small infini-casting for spell schools! Particularly druids. They could use more love.
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Re: Unlimited GSF Spells

Post by pigman » Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:16 pm

For clerics, I would tie the infini casting to their domains.

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-XXX-
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Re: Unlimited GSF Spells

Post by -XXX- » Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:25 pm

Infinite word of faith plz.

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Re: Unlimited GSF Spells

Post by Wytchee » Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:41 pm

To be fair, it's really not all that much. It's almost more trouble than it's worth to click a hotkey then try to click on a mob and not accidentally hit your comrades for maybe 6-12 acid damage.

The only ones that really contribute are illusion/enchantment (against low fort enemies)/evocation (like a mini eldritch blast).
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Re: Unlimited GSF Spells

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:44 pm

pigman wrote:For clerics, I would tie the infini casting to their domains.
+1. This would be cool. Especially if you targeted the lesser-used domains with a cooler variant of infini casting.
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Re: Unlimited GSF Spells

Post by Tourmaline » Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:37 am

Wytchee wrote:To be fair, it's really not all that much. It's almost more trouble than it's worth to click a hotkey then try to click on a mob and not accidentally hit your comrades for maybe 6-12 acid damage.

The only ones that really contribute are illusion/enchantment (against low fort enemies)/evocation (like a mini eldritch blast).
They're only not much if you look at what a level 30 can do. Many of them are incredibly useful for leveling, but for some reason that's never a factor in these discussions even though most characters spend a heck of a lot more time leveling than anything else. I am very thankful that they were added not because they're uber powerful but they do give a wizard something magic-related to do instead of hanging back lazily shooting crossbow bolts.

As a quality of life bonus I think they're awesome. But in general I want more stuff that makes the leveling grind more fun, I'm a lot less worried about what characters can or can't do in the end game. I've been playing this game for years now and every little bit helps.

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Re: Unlimited GSF Spells

Post by JediMindTrix » Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:50 am

I don't think Cleric's need this the way Wizard/Sorc did.

If they were to receive cookies, I'd prefer it be implementations of more PnP relevant spells like Create Food and Water.

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Re: Unlimited GSF Spells

Post by caldura firebourne » Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:59 am

Pnp relevance is one thing, but if we're looking at arelith relevance, create booze and coffee would benefit mages better
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Re: Unlimited GSF Spells

Post by Wytchee » Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:19 am

Tourmaline wrote:stuff and things
Oh, I wasn't complaining, really. I have a wild mage with conj focus who was more than grateful for the infinite Melf's up until about level 7 or so.

But she hasn't used it since.

Be great if epic foci gave you just a wee bit more, e.g. infinite ILMS for epic evocation foci, or infinite Displacement for epic illusion foci.

It would give us a bit more to do in epic dungeons, where we're usually relegated to the role of Mass Haste bot.
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Re: Unlimited GSF Spells

Post by Durvayas » Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:07 am

Clerics are principally the quintessencial healing class. Just give them unlimited cure minor/light/medium wounds at certain milestones, possibly tie the stronger serious/critical cure spells to the healing domain.
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Re: Unlimited GSF Spells

Post by Kirito » Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:07 am

What I'd like to see would be along the lines of:
Spell focus 3-4 magic missile
Greater SF unlimited magic missile
GSF and level 15? 3-4 ILMS
Epic SF unlimited (10?) ILMS

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Re: Unlimited GSF Spells

Post by Wytchee » Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:20 pm

I'd like to see, for Epic Spell Foci:

Abjuration - Minor Globe of Invulnerability
Conjuration - Mestil's Acid Breath
Divination - Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Enchantment - Mind Fog
Evocation - Isaac's Lesser Missile Storm
Illusion - Invisibility or Displacement
Necromancy - Circle of Death (though the spell should be tweaked)
Transmutation - Polymorph Self
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Peppermint
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Re: Unlimited GSF Spells

Post by Peppermint » Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:01 am

Mages should not receive a 3/4 BAB bonus in my opinion, in part for the reasons outlined by the OP. The trade off for their lesser BAB compared to other classes is that they receive boons in the form of infinite spells -- a system we'd planned to expand on in the future.

We probably will extend mages' infinite spell list for epic spell focuses at some point. It's really just a matter of finding the time.

I would not expect divine classes to be touched in this regard.

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Re: Unlimited GSF Spells

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:10 am

Peppermint wrote:Mages should not receive a 3/4 BAB bonus in my opinion, in part for the reasons outlined by the OP. The trade off for their lesser BAB compared to other classes is that they receive boons in the form of infinite spells -- a system we'd planned to expand on in the future.

We probably will extend mages' infinite spell list for epic spell focuses at some point. It's really just a matter of finding the time.

I would not expect divine classes to be touched in this regard.
Is there a pipeline for more druid support in the form of giving boosts to their spellcasting? Maybe a spellcasting-centric path? ActionReplay started this with those recent spell changes to druid spells, which I thought was great!

Why do you think druids shouldn't receive GSF infini-spells?

I agree that clerics/bards always need more help, but druids I find are oft forgotten and thought to just be hippie shapeshifters.
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Re: Unlimited GSF Spells

Post by Peppermint » Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:19 am

Clerics and bards are both in a solid spot. Bards are top tier.

Druids already have the fundamental underpinnings of a melee-oriented class; they're simply undertuned for the role. Were I to rework them, I'd take them in the direction of making their companions and shapechanging capabilities more potent, so as to give them a unique playstyle. GSF infinite spells, consequently, should not be necessary.

I do not feel that every class should be the same. It's important to emulate a different class fantasy for each of them. Mages may be 'casty', but druids, in my mind, are more reliant on their natural abilities.

ETA: To clarify, I'm glad that ActionReplay improved some of their spells, and would also love to do more of that in the future. Yes, it should be possible to play a druid as a caster -- I absolutely agree with that. However, I wouldn't want to make them 'exclusive casters' in the sense that mages are.

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Re: Unlimited GSF Spells

Post by Wytchee » Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:06 am

Druid magic should compliment their forms, and their forms should compliment their magic.

I don't know how difficult it would be, but I know our devs are wonderful and brilliant (do I have something on my nose?). I think that druids should be able to cast in a limited manner in their elemental and totem forms, similar to how the mountain druids in the Crags do. Elemental forms could also grant 'boons' that persist while in humanoid form until rest or reshift. This would help with the druid's survivability given their abysmal armor class.

But I risk derailing OP's thread.
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Re: Unlimited GSF Spells

Post by susitsu » Sat Jul 01, 2017 4:15 am

The aggro these call upon the AC lacking wizard and sorc at later levels is entirely not worth it.

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Re: Unlimited GSF Spells

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sat Jul 01, 2017 5:21 am

Kizat wrote:From what I remember Wizards and Sorcerers were given unlimited minor spells so they could "contribute", and I use the term very loosely, something in combat. Clerics, Druids and Bards weren't given something similar because of their superior BAB making melee an option.

So.....Now that Wizards can get just as good if not better AB bonuses than the likes of Druids through buffs etc perhaps it might be time to review this, perhaps adding something to them rather than taking toys away.
To provide you with some context that's missing from this sentiment, it was given to them to give them a viable contribution in an environment filled with favored souls, warlocks, and weavemasters- basically, because arcane spells of every variety were on infini-cast tap, there was no reason to pick a wizard over the others besides extra metamagic feats- but these extra metamagic feats weren't worth it in the face of everything on the server being balanced against infini-casters.

With the removal of weavemasters from general selection, wizards no longer have to compete for output of arcane buff spells like stoneskin and mindblank and protection from spells and zoo buffs, etc etc. True flames still infinicast some of the arcane spells a wizard might, but since it's limited only to evocation that balances itself out.

I mean, there's still warlocks... but balancing around warlocks is a joke of an idea, anyway. You're either okay with them or you flip the table when they come up, there's no real balance to be had, IMO. The class is designed to stack DR/HP while spamming infinite touch-attack damage....while getting an unlimited amount of what is arguably the strongest line of summons in the game as a class feature to go with it. While also wearing armor and completely ignoring all Arcane Spell Failure. There is literally no other class in the game that can do all these things.

*Shrug* But I've said before if you're playing any D&D game for "balanced" class mechanics you're playing for the wrong reasons. Some classes /are/ stronger than others, and that's part of the RP of the lore of the world. If regular balance updates are essential to your happy gameplay, you're probably going to be happier playing a MOBA than you are a cooperative CRPG.
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Re: Unlimited GSF Spells

Post by WhereButterfliesGoToDie » Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:31 am

If memory serves, the infinitely castable spells from their respective GSF were not added to provide a balance between vanilla casters and infini-casters, but rather as a form of compensation for said infini-casters being removed from the game. To provide something for the people who feel like they'd wish to present some form of consistant, albeit minor and largely symbolic contribution.

They're great around the low levels, providing an actually valid source of secondary party damage, and make mage lassoing for adventure exp abit more managable, but end of the day, bar the infinite See Invis from GSF div, they're not spells that will benefit you higher up. Casting Magic Missiles in an epic level dungeon, with the tradeoff for oftentimes sub-15 damage being a potential gigantic axe to your low AC face, usually is not worthwhile. Mages have plenty to do, between Mass Haste, buff maintenance and playing field medics in parties later on, without churning out missiles infinitely. So, the transition from using the infinite GSF spells to the more rudimentary ones as you progress in levels feels natural to me.

As for warlocks being brought up, the argument of them being supposed gods hasn't really made sense to me since the initial early 2014-2015-era summons, and they've only become gradually weaker since with the summons being brought further into line. Another thing that's worth pointing out, is that warlocks are hard countered by WMs as far as PvP is concerned, which remains one of the most frequent classes in use. For the person who derives alot of enjoyment from independantly managing alot of dungeon content, the warlock remains a very prominent pick, though.

But, play a warlock in a party, and that rough 100 blast damage you've a potential of putting out each round is put next to the output of dedicated melee classes, and wherein your summons will often be requested to be shelfed to not clutter narrow dungeon areas, and I promise you that you won't feel too hot. Personally, I'd currently say warlocks are completely fine. They excell at one thing, are capable at many, but have a few steep pitfalls. Isn't that what a class should be in a varied setting?

Edit: I am not advocating that the choice of a class should be grounded in mechanics in regards to the last bit. This is a roleplaying server, afterall. Moreso, that it's nice when the stars align, and something that you happen to find cool and interesting to roleplay, also happens to be mechanically capable.

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Re: Unlimited GSF Spells

Post by Diilicious » Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:55 am

would be great if healers could infinitely cast the lower level healing spells (minor/light/medium/serious/critical) on a cool down.
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Re: Unlimited GSF Spells

Post by MissEvelyn » Sat Jul 01, 2017 4:05 pm

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:If regular balance updates are essential to your happy gameplay, you're probably going to be happier playing a MOBA than you are a cooperative CRPG.
This so much. NWN is a 15 year old game with a terrible engine if you're looking for skillful PvP.
I can definitely recommend World of Warcraft and League of Legends, both of which have decent PvP implemented, if you're looking to 'git gud', as they say.
But having that kind of mentality on Arelith almost always leads to all sorts of bad things.


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Re: Unlimited GSF Spells

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:02 pm

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: *Shrug* But I've said before if you're playing any D&D game for "balanced" class mechanics you're playing for the wrong reasons. Some classes /are/ stronger than others, and that's part of the RP of the lore of the world. If regular balance updates are essential to your happy gameplay, you're probably going to be happier playing a MOBA than you are a cooperative CRPG.
I don't think this approach is appropriate. And I think we shouldn't dissaude people from talking about mechanical tweaks and builds and "balance" if that's what they want to talk about. Buildcrafting is a legitimate topic to engage in, for new and old players, in attempts to find creative ways to use a 15+ year-old ruleset.

You were the first one to explicitly talk about balance. And I think this thread's intention is not a discussion on balance, this is a discussion on content. Let's not confuse the two. The GSF infini spells were an innovative way of reinvigorating the frankly dry and dull design space of low-level wizards and sorcerers. This was new content, and people ate it up, because it was fantastic, and I'll forever give props to Peppermint for the idea.

Furthermore, I think my definition of D&D and your definition of D&D are two vary different things. I've always strive to create a fair ecosystem for players that I've DM'd over, in PnP, because there's no worse feeling than watch a player stand by helplessly because - out of no fault of their own - they picked mechanics they thought were cool and fun, but frankly, were unable to meaningful contribute to the "play" of the game. D&D has had poorly designed classes, feats, and mechanics at every iteration - some absolutely god-awful, some just terrible. Online communities have always, always discussed homebrew methods of making classes and feat choices more fun. This is not new to any RPG community. Stop treating it like discussions of "balance" have not been going on in the D&D community since the invention of the internet.

And make no mistake, this is a game. It's a collaborative storytelling environment, but it is a game. And no, it's not a CRPG. And no, it's not a MOBA. It's a MRPG - a multiplayer, role-playing game. And if the Devs are our Gamemasters, I will never stop discussing ways to alleviate "trap" mechanics, unfun classes, and boring design, so that new and old players can constantly revisit old tropes and archetypes they love dearly, and have fun in the process.

Dissuading people from having conversations about Arelith, no matter what they are, disservices our community. We should be thankful that honestly people continue to stick around in this place for as long as they have.

So talk about "balance."
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