Obligatory Wiz/Sorc Change Whine Thread

[Salleh]

Now that we've gotten the subject out of the way, let's approach this like grown adults.

About this change, I read it. Went for a walk for two hours. Slept for eight. Woke up, and waited another 3 hours and now I'm posting, with a clear head and sane mind, because I care about the fragile balance Arelith has managed to foster for years. I'm afraid this change has some unforseen side effects.

The Wiz/Sorc change has huge potential now. One of the main ones being the fact that they can turn into a golem/Dragon or Tenser (placing them at 7 attacks per round), place acid sheathe, premonition and go off beating things into submission. The main fact about this is that nearly every mage can do this with no preparation in build choices.

If however, one decides to push STR and keep 19 INT, this means that they can beat things much stronger and better.

I'm sure that Spellswords are fun, but turning them into 3/4 BAB class has repercussions that might end up slightly unforseen, such as:
- All mages now have an inherent aptitude for combat, regardless of their specializations.
- All mages can now deal decent damage, due to their ability to transform themselves. (This also steps into the boundary of clerics)
- Epic spells also have the potential to turn them into best tanks. According to my calculation, a mage can easily reach way past 55+ AC treshold.

Code: Select all

         - 10 AC Base
         - 7+5=12 Armor (5 from EMA)
         - 5 Shield
         - 5 Deflection
         - 1 Mage Armor
         - 1 Boots
         - 4 Haste
         - 2 Feat
         - 5 EMA Dodge

-> 50 without Imp Expertise (meaning fighting viable), 60 with.
This is all without the shapechange. With shapechange the AC is 55, with 65 AC in Imp Expertise.

For comparison: Some high end point for buffed UMD fighter is now 58 AC.
A dex rogue can get around 52 AC.

Also another side effect is the Acid Sheathe, with all these buffs and premonition, the mage can avoid taking damage, and end up biting back for ~66 damage every hit. Effectively the mage is now also a barbarian, that hits hard.

So, why bother taking any dedicated fighter levels, ranger levels or barbarian levels? These full ab classes no longer contribute to the combat prowess of the character, only take away the capability to be a better fighter, by being a better caster.

Personally, this is all fine, but I'd place it as a path, with some tradeoff. Making everyone 3/4 class is simply diluting the uniqueness to the point where anyone can just pick up a sword and say "I'm a spellsword, back off".

Thank you for the time taken to read this post. I'm hoping that we can kerp it civil. If we cannot, I'm glad to have been able to voice my view.

[One Two Three Five]

Clerics are better at buffed AC-tank melee.
Druids are better at shapeshifted melee, and a monk/druid will easily beat the AC points you mention.
Wizard is never going to be a tank with d4 hit dice.
The EMA AC pumping has been around for years.
Palemaster/Bard/Fighter is still better for.. basically everything you listed there, and premo is easy to get around these days, with everyone having UMD.
The EMA AC pumping has been around for years, but your AC calculation looks weird to me, where are they getting 7 base armor? Greensteel? That's one normal feat and an epic feat burned to actually cast.

(placing them at 7 attacks per round)

Explain how.

[Salleh]

4 Base + 1 Haste + 2 Tenser -> 7 Attacks per round

About armor, you can take four fighter levels, because you can.

[One Two Three Five]

Sure, sure. And you're casting in it how?
26 wizard/4 fighter with the fighter dip pre-epic is going to bite bad, too. Not enough discipline, no epic weapon spec. You'd need 25/5, because wizards don't get divine power, but every step away from More Wizard is a step towards being dispel bait.

Edit: Other problems-
Transforming basically deletes your spellbook, so that's a last resort option and always has, unless you're fine playing without int or spellslot gear (and thus, basically, not being a wizard at all, just a Bad Fighter). The only reason it's a viable option on druids is Owl's Insight.

How are you dealing damage? Death by a thousand cuts in tenser shape?
5 str bonus+3+1d6 fire isn't too impressive, even if you hit 30 times.

Don't get me wrong. Spellswords are one of my top 3 favorite things in PnP, but this doesn't do it.

Double Edit, I'll stop eventually: The only real 'cheesy op' melee wizard I see right now is a wizard/PDK using Oath of Wrath to give themselves a possible effective 30 AB (15 int mod as a negative to ac, and a bonus to their AB/Damage) against one target. (With 15 vs the race)

but if you don't think that's getting nerfed into the ground the exact moment someone on the dev team reads this you got another thing

[Lorkas]

Worth noting: the update did nothing to the AC of mages whatsoever, and it looks a lot like you're arguing that there's no point in taking full BAB classes while assuming that the character is taking full BAB classes for the sake of your calculations.

For example, you state that mages can get 7 APR in Tenser's Transformation, but that would require taking 4 levels of a full BAB class before level 20 (a pure mage would have 3 base APR + 2 from Tenser's + 1 from haste, which it seems like you're assuming is up). Another example: you're assuming some AC from a shield and from heavy armor, but wearing those things would cost a wizard a ridiculous 4 feats if they don't take levels in a full BAB class.

If a mage decides to try to be a battlecleric style meleer, they're going to be worse in every way apart from acid sheath. They'll have lower AB due to lacking the cleric's AB boosting spells, lower APR since they don't have divine power (unless, again, they multiclass into a full BAB class), lower AC (at least until receiving EMA, and even then they won't exceed what a cleric can already do), and unlike a cleric, they won't be able to cast spells without a chance for failure in their armor and shield unless they take two epic feats to reduce their ASF from greensteel down to 0%.

If the mage decides to use Tenser's to try to make up some of that ground, they'll lose a lot of the AC that you've argued they get, since no items merge into Tenser's. Assuming they have EMA, haste, mage armor, and took armor skin, they'll be looking at 41 AC, 51 if they take and use IE.

In that same form, the pure mage is looking at an APR of 6 (7 if multiclassed into full BAB) at a fairly impressive +48 BAB if said pure mage decided to spend feats on WF and EWF: longsword (and weapon proficiency (martial) if they don't multiclass into full BAB). Damage will be 18 on average. If the mage decided to multiclass into full BAB for the 7th APR, it actually lowers their AB to +47 (they gain 1 BAB but lose 2 AB from Tenser's for lowered caster level). Also, all those points in STR would become irrelevant since Tenser's sets your STR to 20, whatever it was before, which includes the potential to lower the mage's STR score. Also, none of your gear counts. Tenser's turns out to be maybe handy in particular PvM situations, but in no way is going to turn them into a PvP powerhouse--they'd be better of hurling the same spells they would've always hurled in PvP confrontations.

All in all, the numbers don't particularly scare me. As was said in another thread, the maximum possible change that this makes is +5 BAB and +1 APR on a pure mage compared to what was doable before.

[One Two Three Five]

Yeah it uh- yeah. Still bad.
Tenser's AB (multiclassed for that cool +5 4th attack that absolutely will never hit)
16 BaB+5 Epic BaB+5 Tenser Str+2 bulls mod+13 tenser's AB +6 (Sword and foci)
47. With 26 wizard you burn a level six spell slot to have worse cleric AB for something like two minutes. Wizards just don't have the spell pool, the proficiencies, the hit dice, the multiclassing potential, to do what you think they can.

[Lorkas]

+47/+42/+37/+32/+47/+42/+37 is a respectable attack schedule, it's just that the damage is super low and AC will be awful for someone who wants to be a meleer.

It can last longer than 2 minutes by a significant margin, since polymorph forms are refreshed every time you transition on Arelith. But yea, it's still not good, just not as bad as it was.

[RamblerTeo]

woah!!! A wholesome 55 AC!!
big damogees hehe!

[One Two Three Five]

+47/+42/+37/+32/+47/+42/+37 is a respectable attack schedule, it's just that the damage is super low and AC will be awful for someone who wants to be a meleer.

It can last longer than 2 minutes by a significant margin, since polymorph forms are refreshed every time you transition on Arelith. But yea, it's still not good, just not as bad as it was.

Sure but how many times can you reasonably transition in a five minute period?
And, well. This build is one good mords from having your day totally ruined.

[Lorkas]

Exactly. It makes shapechanging somewhat more useful in PvM than before, but it's a terrible tactic in PvP unless you're facing someone so low level that you'd be able to kill them with spells anyway.

Mages are still better just being mages instead of trying to be a gish shapechanger.

[Xanos950]

Looking at the potencial damage output i'd dub the build "The Wet Noodle Build"

[Cortex]

Looking at the potencial damage output i'd dub the build "The Wet Noodle Build"

Does it out DPS a WM, a barbarian or a brycer tho?

[Peppermint]

While I don't agree that it's overpowered, it's a weird change to be sure:

1) Doesn't accomplish much, functionally a trap.
2) Potentially excludes other design decisions that might've made gishes more viable or more interesting.
3) Feels thematically inappropriate. Mages aren't usually fighters. (And incidentally, why are wizards better at fighting than pale masters?)
4) Skews encounter balance by increasing BAB of caster mobs.
5) Is unintuitive to new players on the server.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Yeah, I thought the bane of a gish build wasn't getting dispelled/breached into the ground? I don't know what more BAB does.

[Shadowy Reality]

Wizards/Sorcerers had 1/2 BAB, now they have 3/4 BAB. They lost nothing and yet people feel the need to complain.

If it isn't going to break anything what is the issue with this change? It opens melee paths that weren't there before, even if they don't out perform other melee builds(and they shouldn't outperform them), it's still more choices than before.

It won't confuse new players any more than the many other changes and systems already in place in Arelith.

[One Two Three Five]

change is bad and thomas edison was a witch,
But no I uh, just don't think it's OP. Or even that good, which is a shame, but not something to get super mad about.

[CragOrion]

Well, they said in implimentation that it was meant to help spellblade builds, not shapechange builds. I know the change helps out my TF/Ranger alot. He's definitely more fightable now

[Peppermint]

I listed five reasons for why I feel it's an undesirable change that have nothing to do with new players.

But the biggest for me is this: the direction doesn't work, but it has the potential to crowd out other, actually workable ideas.

Let's imagine that at some point in the future we decided we wanted to add a 'gish' feat, that made wizards better at melee combat. And then to complement this, we add a handful of spells that make them better in melee combat -- for a short period of time. This gives the gish build short windows of power, while also requiring investment so not every mage can be a capable meleer in a pinch.

Unfortunately, there's a problem: when every mage receives a melee buff, then any new spells and abilities targeted toward gish builds become dangerous in the hands of a standard, non-melee-oriented mage. Sure, it's possible to work around the problem, but it makes future development harder (while at the same time, accomplishing nothing of value).

[Wytchee]

I don't understand why we don't make Tenser's not a polymorph. It can't be that hard to do.

Give it slight buffs for Transmuters a la conj/necro focuses on summons.

This seems like an easy fix?

[Peppermint]

Yes, an approach like that would work better, in my opinion. Do the same for Polymorph Self and Shapechange (perhaps with special abilities unlocked for transmuters).

Additionally, consider making GMW/Keen Edge/Blackstaff/Stoneskin etc. better for transmuters.

[Xerah]

Yes, an approach like that would work better, in my opinion. Do the same for Polymorph Self and Shapechange (perhaps with special abilities unlocked for transmuters).

Additionally, consider making GMW/Keen Edge/Blackstaff/Stoneskin etc. better for transmuters.

As someone with absolutely no personal benefit in a change like this what-so-ever *cough*, I support this fully. SF Transmutation is basically only used for getting an RP tool of a golem.

[One Two Three Five]

Spell focus ideas..
Assuming the wizard is put back to being 1/2 bab, hemhem.
Already made a tensers suggestion..

Shapechange and Polymorph self: Additional shapes/improved shapes? (Maybe the current shapes 'evolve?' stronger golem types etc

GMW/Keen Edge/Flame Weapon: Pick two of to cast on your own weapons with greater focus, three with epic. (both enchantments are removed if the weapon leaves your inventory)

Alternatively, extra damage types for flame weapon, massive crits on keen, higher ench on GMW.

Blackstaff: Your staff temporarily grants improved two weapon fighting and dual wield.

[Peppermint]

For Tenser's, I proposed this on the dev forum sometime ago:

* The caster's appearance is no longer changed, and all equipped items on the caster are maintained during the transformation. Note that the caster will still be treated as polymorphed, so he will be unable to cast spells or use items, but can cancel Tenser's Transformation at any time from the radial menu.
* Abilities set to 20 strength, 22 dexterity, 18 constitution (default behavior).
* Bonus AB calculation changed. The caster no longer gains +1 AB / 2 caster levels, but instead gains enough AB to raise his base AB to that of a pure fighter of his character level.
* Bonus attacks calculation changed. The caster no longer (necessarily) gains +2 attacks, but instead gains enough attacks to set his attack total to that of a pure fighter of his character level.
* +4 Natural AC bonus removed.
* Bonus hit points removed.

I wasn't 100% sure on the numbers (i.e. I hadn't number-crunched it), so might need tweaking.

On reflection, I feel it'd also be a good idea to tie transmutation scaling into it so that it requires more investment.

[One Two Three Five]

So closer to divine power, basically. How do you feel about doing a bonus to str/con/dex, instead of a stat change, for people who are running high-physical stat casters? Not that this'll be common, but.

[Peppermint]

I think it'd be a great idea, in that it'd reward investment for more melee-oriented casters. Perhaps a compromise approach, where some portion of one's base stats are transferred to the shifted form.