Obligatory Wiz/Sorc Change Whine Thread

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Re: Obligatory Wiz/Sorc Change Whine Thread

Post by yellowcateyes » Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:58 pm

Scaling Tenser bonuses to Transmutation focii seem to be the way to go. Perhaps, at ESF, it's no longer treated as a polymorph. Focii could also affect the duration.

I'm not terribly fond of the 3/4 BAB change since it's 1) a radical departure from core D&D that 2) doesn't perform as advertised. A dedicated Eldritch Knight path or class would've been ideal.

That said, making Transmutation the self-buff spellsword school works just as well. It's a thematically appropriate approach to the school, with a suitably complementary list of spells.
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Re: Obligatory Wiz/Sorc Change Whine Thread

Post by One Two Three Five » Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:38 pm

a radical departure from core D&D
Tabletop 3.x is salvaged only by heavy application of rule 0 and having a party that isn't going to show up with gameologist/charop builds. The edition that spawned ur-priest and divine metamagic isn't, probably, the best example to stick to.

That said, all for spellsword paths/transmu spellswords. Transmu focus' only DC spells are flesh to stone, slow, and burning hands, which is laughably tiny.

However, if these sorts of changes aren't planned/wanted by the admin team, the AB might as well stay. Especially since the consensus (among theorycraft memers, I guess.) seems to be 'it does nothing, but I hate it.'
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Re: Obligatory Wiz/Sorc Change Whine Thread

Post by Peppermint » Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:51 pm

Yeah, and there's the rub: if we keep the BAB change, it becomes harder to do other cool stuff later. For a change that doesn't accomplish what it's intended to do, the choice seems clear to me.

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Re: Obligatory Wiz/Sorc Change Whine Thread

Post by Iceborn » Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:10 am

2/3 is not as amazing as it sounds. It's a solid base that makes wizards/sorcs not completely sucky for melee combat without Tenser'ing and it's good enough for the devs to experiment without sending any sense of balance off the table, if we had such thing before.

Let's see how it goes.
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Re: Obligatory Wiz/Sorc Change Whine Thread

Post by yellowcateyes » Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:37 am

Iceborn wrote:2/3 is not as amazing as it sounds.

It's actually 3/4. The initial announcement misstated it. The post has since then been corrected.

Either way, you're right in that it's not as amazing as it seems.
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Re: Obligatory Wiz/Sorc Change Whine Thread

Post by Commissar » Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:00 am

My only point of disagreement is that it's an unfortunate sort-of place for caster clerics to be. I vaguely recall wizards being given their unlimited castings as a means to let them contribute to combat (or, at least feel like we were). Clerics were excluded; presumably because they already had the 3/4 AB, and could fill in that roll with melee. Now that wizards can do both, I can't help but feel clerics have lost a little of what made them unique.

It's hardly the end of the world, but I wonder if it doesn't impact the fun of the class a little.
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Re: Obligatory Wiz/Sorc Change Whine Thread

Post by Xantor_Stromgate » Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:07 am

Shadowy Reality wrote:Wizards/Sorcerers had 1/2 BAB, now they have 3/4 BAB. They lost nothing and yet people feel the need to complain.
It's what other character classes lost because of it. Gimme that DEV CRIT!

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Re: Obligatory Wiz/Sorc Change Whine Thread

Post by Tourmaline » Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:35 am

I feel like any polymorph-based solution isn't the way to go because losing bonus spells on the shift is such a pain. It's a pain druids know well but druid shifting is a whole different discussion.

When I think "Spellsword" I'd rather see a wizard who could self-enchant their gear in interesting ways. Like say imbuing a sword with a spell that fires on-hit plus the melee damage. I don't want to change shape and lose the ability to cast and lose a row of level three spells, I want to cast spells while in battle.

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Re: Obligatory Wiz/Sorc Change Whine Thread

Post by Kirito » Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:59 am

Why not have a path (including in game teacher / train3r at Myon/arcane tower. ) that gives you BAB 3/4 and say INT bonus to AB or AC or abilty to stack enchantments etc but at the cost of a spell school?

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Re: Obligatory Wiz/Sorc Change Whine Thread

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:49 am

:?

That's how I feel.
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Re: Obligatory Wiz/Sorc Change Whine Thread

Post by Brandon Steel » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:19 pm

I feel as if there could of path dedicated to this instead of giving wizards a buff that really wasn't needed as they're already very strong.

Edit: Additionaly it gives all of them the ability to be at least half-decent in melee combat even if they're not intending to be a "spellsword" which is weird for a wizard that's more wiz levels than not, while still being as nearly or as strong magically as their full wiz counterparts. Unless I'm very mistaken, in which case I apologize

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Re: Obligatory Wiz/Sorc Change Whine Thread

Post by Sockss » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:40 pm

I don't understand how people think 1/2 -> 3/4 isn't large.

That's 25% greater chance to hit and an extra APR. That's crazy.

E.G.

A 22/5/3 (wiz/wm/rogue) is perfectly doable, if a tiny bit feat starved, but you can fit HB/EMA in there.

The trade off is essentially slightly lower AB pre-buffs than a standard melee (with the int needed for 19) + lower hp. You get more AC and way more utility and adaptability.

The lower HP doesn't mean much when you Shapechange correctly to avoid burst and with mantles / counter spelling / G.Sanc / AC / Itemisation (Espescially end-game relic choice) I'd argue that they had much greater survivability.


My problem with this change is that, as has been stated before in this thread, it's a blanket buff for a class that didn't require it. For spellswords to work they'd ideally need to have a seperate path / focussed abilities that give trade-offs.
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Re: Obligatory Wiz/Sorc Change Whine Thread

Post by Meliboeus » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:45 pm

On the plus side quarterstaff-wielding wizard ninja (monk) builds are now viable

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Re: Obligatory Wiz/Sorc Change Whine Thread

Post by Cortex » Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:20 pm

heres some food for thought

would 3/4 bab progression on pm be technically a nerf.....................

they get +1 ab, but no more divine power shenanigans
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Re: Obligatory Wiz/Sorc Change Whine Thread

Post by One Two Three Five » Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:01 pm

Sockss wrote:I don't understand how people think 1/2 -> 3/4 isn't large.

That's 25% greater chance to hit and an extra APR. That's crazy.

E.G.

A 22/5/3 (wiz/wm/rogue) is perfectly doable, if a tiny bit feat starved, but you can fit HB/EMA in there.

The trade off is essentially slightly lower AB pre-buffs than a standard melee (with the int needed for 19) + lower hp. You get more AC and way more utility and adaptability.

The lower HP doesn't mean much when you Shapechange correctly to avoid burst and with mantles / counter spelling / G.Sanc / AC / Itemisation (Espescially end-game relic choice) I'd argue that they had much greater survivability.


My problem with this change is that, as has been stated before in this thread, it's a blanket buff for a class that didn't require it. For spellswords to work they'd ideally need to have a seperate path / focussed abilities that give trade-offs.
This, uh- Listen, it's still not better than a battlecleric. It's definitely not better than a completely mundane WM. (Which has a 'caster level' to dispel of 30)

:arrow: Wizards don't have AB buffs, save true strike. Polymorphing doesn't help you on a WM build, what? 25% greater chance to hit assumes you'll get anywhere near their ac and aren't fishing for 20s anyway.

:arrow: 22/5/3. Ok. Fine. The way dispels work here is that they'er capped at +20, +abjuration feats. Get me? Abjuration feats add up to +6. Lets assume greater, and a disjunction. Yes? fair? 24+d20 vs 12+22. An average of 34(.5, I guess) vs 34. So, on average, mords will remove one of two of your strongest spells. It'll do worse on an epic abjurer. ..Aaaand then the breach hits and you lose 6 more. And for the vast majority of the character's life, they'll be below 20 caster level, and thus subject to basically any dispel from any monster, nevermind PCs.

What buffs are you running that are so strong to make this build work? They're gone now. This alone is enough to make this thing untenable. A fighter/WM/Rogue (or bard with 8 cha and no spells to actually cast) will run 12+30 on that dispel check.

A cleric is hurt less by dispelling than this, since magic vestement and a high strength score can't actually be dispelled, and most of a cleric's AB buffs are so short term.

Druids usually have 26 caster levels if they know what's good for them.. (And, seriously, this is your hill to die on? Not druid/monks, in the fight of which subpar build is op?)
mantles / counter spelling / G.Sanc / AC / Itemisation
Mantles are easy to get around, you can't counterspell long with 19 int and no spell slots, if you're counting on shapechange for defense (no.) as above, your counterspelling and g-sanc slots are going to get eaten, the 55 ac you quoted earlier isn't, like, too high vs real melee builds, and items aren't going to save you from build mistakes like '22 wizard/5 wm' unless the artefact drops start giving epic warding.

As for your AB.. assume 16 BaB for that final attack at -15. 5 epic BaB. I'll assume you picked up every single weapon feat for the scimitar you needed to take martial prof to use. 36 strength seems good without being too generous. So. 16+5+13+3+3+1+1= 42. Ehhhhh.
Ehhhh.. 42/37/32/27/42, hasted. You'll be airswinging most of the time, on most things.
The things you wont, you would've been better off just dropping a summon on. Or like, the evo combo or IGMS. Evards. Weird. Wail. Horrid wilting.

There is so much in a mage's toolkit that could take out legions of enemies, I'd consider this a massive self nerf vs a 27 wizard/3 bard with 4 focuses and any idea how to play the game gleaned from leveling.
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Re: Obligatory Wiz/Sorc Change Whine Thread

Post by Horselords » Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:56 am

As someone benefiting (slightly) from it, it feels... weird.

Why not PM? Sounds really arbitrary (as in, they want to create the gishbuild possibility but when PM is a prestige class that appeals to defensive-gish builds, they leave it out of the gishbuild update...). And from rp perspective, so uh, a wizard in its tower is more proficient with a two handed axe than a PM? wut?

But yes, that's true, it won't break the game. But breaking the game isn't the problem to me.

A strong class (except sorcerer) gets a blanket buff. Meanwhile, it only nerfs further the appeal of the 3/4 classes.

So on one hand you have the assassin class, which is a 3/4 class, with a couple feat-based spells and a fancy mechanic, on the other hand, you have a wizard with the same melee proficiency and all the best spells of the game?? mmmh, tough choice. Buffing the proficiency of the 1/2 ab classes indirectly nerf further the 3/4 ones, in terms of appeal (because the cost of opportunity of going full arcane gets lessened).

Anyway that was my two cents. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter that much, will survive if it stays, will survive if it goes.

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Re: Obligatory Wiz/Sorc Change Whine Thread

Post by One Two Three Five » Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:59 am

Why not PM?
PMs are stronger by getting 3 APR and using divine power scrolls, generally. This would stop that. Which, technically a nerf? PM was never meant to be a dedicated meleer class, it's thematically a Hard To Kill Summoner, it's just that the best math is in it being a high AC meleer.

And as proved, I don't want to say ad nauseum, but.. as proved several times, 3/4ths ab doesn't really help wizards. It doesn't allow for anything new, and it certainly doesn't devalue the other 3/4ths ab casters.

Assassins are, however, still one of the worst classes whether this stays or goes.
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Re: Obligatory Wiz/Sorc Change Whine Thread

Post by -XXX- » Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:19 am

IMO this change is more about allowing players to dip into arcane classes with their melee builds without suffering a crippling penalty to their BAB. It doesn't seem to give any real buff to dedicated arcane spellcasters (real mages blast stuff with magic).

I see this mostly like an effort to make "RP builds" less terrible rather than an attempt to enhance "optimal" builds.

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