Balance Team

[Sockss]

In the interest of not dragging mechanics out in a public forum, which will never get anywhere.

Does Arelith have a balance team that will look at objective mathematical feedback on the recent update that I (or other players) can direct to them?

Or did someone just really want to play a spellsword?

[Rwby]

Isn't the Balance Team called Peppermint?

In all serious, I would imagine this is discussed between all the Admins, and the Lead DM, and if you have serious balance issues then just write them a PM and I'm sure someone will reply!

[Sockss]

Thanks, I'll message Peppermint.

Update be crazy.

[Kirito]

Thanks, I'll message Peppermint.

Update be crazy.

But helpful for someone who is playing a spellsword ^^ (although it doesn't really have a huge impact other than increasing my AB from 11 to 15... not going to complain at that though!

[Dunshine]

Sensitive information, abuseable stuff or exploits should be PM-ed (to Active Admins), but feedback on mechanics can easily be done in the open forum.

If you rather use a PM, then it's best to do it to the Code Contributors group, so there are more people reading it. Peppermint being in there as well.

[Sockss]

PDK is crazy.

Mage change isn't likely to get most existing mages hyped but of course future builds have the potential to be crazy.

Anyway, I get the impression that it wasn't looked at, just someone wanted to play a spellsword!

[Sockss]

I messaged him! In my experience the public discussion of mechanics turns very emotional rather than objective and not everyone understands the mechanics, hence why the question! I'd rather not get involved with all o' that business!

[Liareth]

The path is being looked at. Don't worry!

[Sockss]

Ah phew! I assumed since it was in it was how it was supposed to be!

This applies to both pdk and the Wiz/sorc thing?

Thanks for that!

[Liareth]

The wiz/sorc thing is fine. At the very most it will give a pure mage 5 extra BAB. I don't think it has the potential to be crazy (thought if you have an example build which turns crazy due to the changes I'd be happy to be proven wrong!); it will only marginally help some suboptimal spellsword builds. PDK is obviously quite broken with certain builds, though, and will be fixed.

[Sockss]

An extra 5 Bab and 1apr is a lot!

A pure mage isn't going to take the most advantage of it, of course. I'll drop through some things for you when I get a moment.

Appreciate it!

[yellowcateyes]

The process could likely use some work. Releasing broken things, then quickly fixing things when exposure to the public raises awareness about how broken they are, doesn't seem like the ideal situation. I suppose it works out eventually. It's a small hobby-oriented community anyways.

[Jagel]

I'd say that at the rates DEVs are responding to feedback and monitoring implemented changes there's little more we could ask for.

[Jack Oat]

Redacted.

[Midnight In A Perfect World]

... Releasing broken things, then quickly fixing things when exposure to the public raises awareness about how broken they are, doesn't seem like the ideal situation. ...

I'd say that at the rates DEVs are responding to feedback and monitoring implemented changes there's little more we could ask for.

This.

I honestly think that, with their swift reaction times, this is not a bad way to work at all. It'll give the entire community the chance to give input, not just a few people in a team. Besides, it takes only a little common sense to figure out that, when a new path/class is obviously broken, one should probably wait a few more days until it has been tweaked, before creating a new character.

However, if there is, in fact, an active 'balance team', then it should not be ignored, of course.

[Sockss]

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate all the dev work and if I come across as not doing that, I sincerely apologise.

My whining comes from a good place!

Normally, changes are okay-ish balance wise (enough that I don't make whiny posts about them) but this one particularly stood out for me - not only because of the craziness, but also because it seemed super directionless. Which, for me personally, is more of an issue.

(The following are entirely rhetorical)

E.G. What is PDK even supposed to be doing? Was there general consensus on the direction of the class?

Why didn't it introduce new mechanics rather than slap bard-ish buffs on things that will either be objectively better or worse than a bard? (I mean for 10 levels you're /crazy/)

How do the PvE creators cope with these new wild stat swings? (they can't)

Why have arcane classes received a huge buff; did they need it?

[cptcuddlepants]

Why have arcane classes received a huge buff; did they need it?

I feel like sorcerers and wizards are better at being clerics than clerics are!

[If Valor Were Inches]

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate all the dev work and if I come across as not doing that, I sincerely apologise.

My whining comes from a good place!

Normally, changes are okay-ish balance wise (enough that I don't make whiny posts about them) but this one particularly stood out for me - not only because of the craziness, but also because it seemed super directionless. Which, for me personally, is more of an issue.

(The following are entirely rhetorical)

E.G. What is PDK even supposed to be doing? Was there general consensus on the direction of the class?

Why didn't it introduce new mechanics rather than slap bard-ish buffs on things that will either be objectively better or worse than a bard? (I mean for 10 levels you're /crazy/)

How do the PvE creators cope with these new wild stat swings? (they can't)

Why have arcane classes received a huge buff; did they need it?

I think it's dangerous to assume that the DEV team comes up with things alone, doesn't tell the other DEVs anything, and releases it just because they're the only one that wants it.

I also think as a poster it's best to state these things from a professional place, and state your concerns kindly. They are working for free, and even if they weren't it's good human behavior to be genuine and respectful.

PDK was just sitting as an unused Prestige Class you couldn't select. Now it's a knight class, allowing a mechanical route of knight RP without going paladin or Blackguard, something grey or blue or red that's more subtle.

It needs some tweaking, they are likely doing this, but I love that we get new content to have fun with, a new class to face my arch enemies up in the mountains with.

Lastly, this thing of "Direction", why does a new class feature need direction? New content and possibilities provides versatility. I do not believe every new thing must have "direction".

[Trunx]

Why have arcane classes received a huge buff; did they need it?

I feel like sorcerers and wizards are better at being clerics than clerics are!

That's just a feeling.

[gilescorey]

I feel like sorcerers and wizards are better at being clerics than clerics are!

They aren't. There's nothing in the arcane spellbook that makes a wimpy caster into a beefy meleer, like there is in cleric (and druid... sort of)

They're also still stuck with the d4 hit die, unlike clerics.

[Hunter548]

PDK was just sitting as an unused Prestige Class you couldn't select. Now it's a knight class, allowing a mechanical route of knight RP without going paladin or Blackguard, something grey or blue or red that's more subtle.

It needs some tweaking, they are likely doing this, but I love that we get new content to have fun with, a new class to face my arch enemies up in the mountains with.

Lastly, this thing of "Direction", why does a new class feature need direction? New content and possibilities provides versatility. I do not believe every new thing must have "direction".

It needs more than a little bit of tweaking. The class probably needs to be redesigned from the ground up again because the current implementation of "What if bards had d10 HD and full bab?" is going to be nigh-impossible to balance. This isn't a case of the numbers being bad, but rather the core abilities mechanics' being overly strong.

[Sockss]

I think it's dangerous to assume that the DEV team comes up with things alone, doesn't tell the other DEVs anything, and releases it just because they're the only one that wants it.

I agree, it's a dangerous state of affairs - though from a redacted post it seems like the assumption was largely correct.

I also think as a poster it's best to state these things from a professional place, and state your concerns kindly. They are working for free, and even if they weren't it's good human behavior to be genuine and respectful.

I would hope that I had done this!

Lastly, this thing of "Direction", why does a new class feature need direction? New content and possibilities provides versatility. I do not believe every new thing must have "direction".

Because without direction, how do you balance a class? If there isn't a vision of what the class is supposed to do and what niche it's supposed to fit - how are you going to measure its success?

It also stops it stepping on other classes toes - in this case, I'd say largely stepping on bard's toes.

[Cybernet21]

Because without direction, how do you balance a class? If there isn't a vision of what the class is supposed to do and what niche it's supposed to fit - how are you going to measure its success?

It also stops it stepping on other classes toes - in this case, I'd say largely stepping on bard's toes.

The direction is of Knights that arent divine or anything(although they can be),that act like war generals,inspiring his troops and intimidating his enemies,so a bard but for a larger scale or for fightes that still wish to maintain their combat prowess and have some of bard's abilities(but ceirtainly not all) so basically a CoT for fighters that want some bardic powers.And each knights is able to specalize in either inspiring their allies,protecting their allies or intimidating their enemies. At least that is the direction i feel like the Dev's want.

As for stepping at bard toes?I dont think they actually are,PDKs are more a optional complement for battle bards.Saying PDKs are stepping on bards toes is like saying CoTs are stepping on paladins toes Edit:PDK also has a cap of 10 levels,while CoT's dont.Just my opinion though

[JediMindTrix]

One of those classes look like it was ripped straight out of Dragon Age Inquisition's Warrior Perk Tree. Pretty sure it was called Vanguard too.

[Cybernet21]

It needs more than a little bit of tweaking. The class probably needs to be redesigned from the ground up again because the current implementation of "What if bards had d10 HD and full bab?" is going to be nigh-impossible to balance. This isn't a case of the numbers being bad, but rather the core abilities mechanics' being overly strong.

Everytime something new is implemented on a game,specially a multiplayer game,it gets a bit " OP" and might be easily abused,but after a time it's tweaked,sometimes it works on first time ,sometimes it doesnt,that's where "buffs" and "nerfs" come in,until the thing is fully balanced.

As for from the ground up?I dont think it's really needed,just "buffs" and or "nerfs".And,for me at least, following your thoughts is the same thing as saying CoT's are too strong for fighters that feel like "what if i had some divine abilities but i'm not a pally or cleric".The mechanics can be buffed an nerfed whenever the dev's want to (similar to the warlock rework at the moment or the recent summon changes...) if it's overly strong on some builds,inform the devs and they will probably try to fix it,but reworking from the ground up might be too much work for too little "reward".

PDKs are not replacing bards in any way,just complementing or like i said previously:they are like CoTs but for bardic abilities