Feylock Feedback

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs, Contributors

Locked
Nyuunie
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:48 am

Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by Nyuunie » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:58 pm

JediMindTrix wrote:Increase the duration of Displacement for warlocks. That'd be better than II.
Extend Spell is already a thing.

JediMindTrix
Posts: 1190
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:35 am

Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by JediMindTrix » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:33 pm

Nyuunie wrote:Extend Spell is already a thing.
DUDE THANKS i forgot

User avatar
susitsu
Posts: 1190
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 7:09 pm

Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by susitsu » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:43 pm

Can you give them shadow shield? That's a sorc/wiz 7th level spell. Won't it just be a disgustingly easy to dispel and short duration? I suppose if it's a spammable special ability that doesn't exactly matter...

User avatar
One Two Three Five
Posts: 1139
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:09 am

Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by One Two Three Five » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:45 pm

Should be tweakable with scripting, I bet? And yeah dispelling a warlock isn't the... best? way to deal with them.
The devil does not need any more advocates
Clerics are just socially acceptable warlocks.

User avatar
susitsu
Posts: 1190
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 7:09 pm

Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by susitsu » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:48 pm

Generally speaking, getting your buffs wiped is pretty bad news for anyone. I find the argument that "it'll just get recast next round" pretty weak.

User avatar
One Two Three Five
Posts: 1139
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:09 am

Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by One Two Three Five » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:52 pm

Oh well, I guess. The other radial spells seem to scale, as far as I know.
The devil does not need any more advocates
Clerics are just socially acceptable warlocks.

User avatar
AllTheWorld
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:15 am

Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by AllTheWorld » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:53 pm

The next round they need to make a choice about what will be recast. Stripping buffs hurts everyone.
No one else has ever loved this way before.

User avatar
gilescorey
Posts: 1481
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:14 pm

Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by gilescorey » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:54 pm

Dispelling a warlock is like dispelling a mundane: it's extremely hard to do as anything but an abjurer, and even then it's not a guarantee.

Especially since a well built warlock could have arcane defence abjuration, which makes it even harder.

You can breach a warlock, sure, but unless you're a caster (thus with more thoroughly limited amounts of breaching) you won't breach as fast as he can slap back up whatever you've breached.

User avatar
susitsu
Posts: 1190
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 7:09 pm

Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by susitsu » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:56 pm

I thought I saw mention in some thread about spells maxing out at CL 15 for some things? Though that might have been about weave master, not the spell special abilities.

User avatar
Wytchee
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 875
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:37 pm

Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by Wytchee » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:57 pm

susitsu wrote:I thought I saw mention in some thread about spells maxing out at CL 15 for some things? Though that might have been about weave master, not the spell special abilities.
The infinite spells granted by GSF cap out at CL 15.
Current character: Abigail Duskwood

User avatar
Hunter548
Posts: 1869
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:40 am

Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by Hunter548 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:05 am

susitsu wrote:Can you give them shadow shield? That's a sorc/wiz 7th level spell. Won't it just be a disgustingly easy to dispel and short duration? I suppose if it's a spammable special ability that doesn't exactly matter...
I mean, you could but I dunno why you'd want to. They already have the dr fron EDR, the ac is kind of irrelevant when their ac is bad to begin with, the concealment is worse than displacement .. sure, the negative energy protection elements are nice but NEP potions are pretty common. Seems very underwhelming as a capstone.
UilliamNebel wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:24 pm
You're right. Participating in the forums was a mistake. Won't do this again.
Anime Sword Fighter wrote: I have seen far too many miniskirt anime slave girls.

User avatar
susitsu
Posts: 1190
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 7:09 pm

Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by susitsu » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:15 am

Defer to the big post by Scholar Midnight on page 4 with the new recommendations for spells if you're thinking that I'm making a suggestion here, Hunter.

Regardless, you make some good points. But in the case of a non-EDR Feylock, it would help.

User avatar
Wytchee
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 875
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:37 pm

Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by Wytchee » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:16 am

Hunter548 wrote:I mean, you could but I dunno why you'd want to. They already have the dr fron EDR, the ac is kind of irrelevant when their ac is bad to begin with, the concealment is worse than displacement .. sure, the negative energy protection elements are nice but NEP potions are pretty common. Seems very underwhelming as a capstone.
The idea is to move away from conlocks being the standard, at least as far as fey-pact warlocks are concerned. If we go this route, most fey-pact warlocks would be cha-focused and play a party/trickster role, and hence not have EDR. Shadow Shield also grants +5 natural AC and immunity to necromancy spells and instant-death effects in addition to its NEP.

Also, fey-pact warlock AC isn't bad at all. It can hit the mid-40s. With SS it hits near 50.

Base 11 (assuming 13 dex)
+ 6 mithril chain (armor)
+ 5 mithril tower shield (shield)
+ 5 shadow shield (natural)
+ 1 boots (dodge)
+ 1 mage armor (dodge)
+ 4 shield wand (deflection)
+ 4 haste (other)
+ 6 tumble
+ 1 dex skleen
+ 2 armor skin
+ 2 cat's grace wand (roll of 3 or more)
= 48, add in 20% effective physical DR and Displacement and you're as tanky as a trickery cleric.
Last edited by Wytchee on Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:38 am, edited 8 times in total.
Current character: Abigail Duskwood

User avatar
One Two Three Five
Posts: 1139
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:09 am

Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by One Two Three Five » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:21 am

That last one helps mitigate not being con-based, too. I prefer it the 'new' way, with changes listed? And people that like the old warlock setup aren't left out in the cold, since fiendlocks can still go huge tank.
The devil does not need any more advocates
Clerics are just socially acceptable warlocks.

User avatar
susitsu
Posts: 1190
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 7:09 pm

Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by susitsu » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:46 am

I'd really like to see a real capability for an effective 27/3 bg dip fiendlock, still. Imho, these changes completely eliminated that already inferior build.

Stath
Posts: 693
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2014 11:28 am
Location: Arelith.

Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by Stath » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:09 am

Wytchee wrote:
Also, fey-pact warlock AC isn't bad at all. It can hit the mid-40s. With SS it hits near 50.
This is barely enough ac to avoid getting shot by malarites in a low teens dungeon.
Ork wrote: *who filters sexy elven fun times, really?

JediMindTrix
Posts: 1190
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:35 am

Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by JediMindTrix » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:17 am

gilescorey wrote:Dispelling a warlock is like dispelling a mundane: it's extremely hard to do as anything but an abjurer, and even then it's not a guarantee.
If they take spell defense: abj doesn't that make each dispel roll only a 5% chance of succeeding?

User avatar
Wytchee
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 875
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:37 pm

Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by Wytchee » Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:06 am

Stath wrote:
Wytchee wrote:
Also, fey-pact warlock AC isn't bad at all. It can hit the mid-40s. With SS it hits near 50.
This is barely enough ac to avoid getting shot by malarites in a low teens dungeon.
My fire elemental has 41 AC and even the black orcs have trouble hitting it with 50% concealment.

It's not meant to make you invulnerable. 50 AC is more than enough for sustainability.
Current character: Abigail Duskwood

User avatar
gilescorey
Posts: 1481
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:14 pm

Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by gilescorey » Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:27 am

JediMindTrix wrote:
gilescorey wrote:Dispelling a warlock is like dispelling a mundane: it's extremely hard to do as anything but an abjurer, and even then it's not a guarantee.
If they take spell defense: abj doesn't that make each dispel roll only a 5% chance of succeeding?
It would depend a very great deal upon who exactly is dispelling. From a caster-with-GSF:abj, yes. From anyone else, no.

The dispel formula is:
1d20 + dispel's caster level vs. 12 + creator's effective level.
So here is this, which is a list of various dispels versus a level 30 arcane defence caster (either a meme mage with no disc, a mage/harper, or a warlock). Keep in mind both Mordekainen's Disjunction and Greater Dispelling are capped at CL 20.

30 Caster Level with Arcane Defence: Abjuration
(No Abjuration) 1d20 + 20 vs. 12 + 32 + 2 (44) = 0% chance
(Greater Abjuration) 1d20 + 24 vs. 12 + 32 + 2 (44) = 5% chance
(Epic Abjuration) 1d20 + 26 vs. 12 + 32 + 2 (44) = 15% chance

Exact math is here. Also included is how dispel would work versus various other common CLs, albeit in a strange and lengthy format. At least it's easy to understand. Hopefully.

User avatar
susitsu
Posts: 1190
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 7:09 pm

Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by susitsu » Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:30 am

but CJ...

what about on a shadow shield of caster level 15
Last edited by susitsu on Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Liareth
General Admin
General Admin
Posts: 1167
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:25 am

Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by Liareth » Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:37 am

susitsu wrote:Can you give them shadow shield? That's a sorc/wiz 7th level spell. Won't it just be a disgustingly easy to dispel and short duration? I suppose if it's a spammable special ability that doesn't exactly matter...
I don't think innate spells are capped at CL 15. The duration for my shadows during testing was definitely 30 rounds and the summons were scaled correctly which is consistent with what I'd expect from a CL30 character casting the spell. Where did you get the idea that it was capped at CL 15?

User avatar
Peppermint
Posts: 1860
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:44 pm

Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by Peppermint » Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:44 am

They are capped at CL 15.

You can script around that to give them a longer duration etc., but with respect to hard-coded attributes (e.g. spell resistance) they are capped at CL 15.

User avatar
RamblerTeo
Posts: 242
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2015 7:31 pm
Location: shoobland

Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by RamblerTeo » Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:44 am

Wytchee wrote: Also, fey-pact warlock AC isn't bad at all. It can hit the mid-40s. With SS it hits near 50.

that's bad, no joke. most builds get mid 40s AB.

OverTheSeaToSkye
Posts: 164
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:42 pm

Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by OverTheSeaToSkye » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:07 pm

RamblerTeo wrote:
Wytchee wrote: Also, fey-pact warlock AC isn't bad at all. It can hit the mid-40s. With SS it hits near 50.

that's bad, no joke. most builds get mid 40s AB.
And if you aren't able to rely on your magic for defense you have to be able to rely on it for offense. That's not the case anymore from what I'm seeing.
Active Chars:
Lily-Rose - Daughter of the Storm
In'iira Arab'afin - Woman of Many Talents

User avatar
Liareth
General Admin
General Admin
Posts: 1167
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:25 am

Re: Feylock Feedback

Post by Liareth » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:23 pm

Peppermint wrote:They are capped at CL 15.

You can script around that to give them a longer duration etc., but with respect to hard-coded attributes (e.g. spell resistance) they are capped at CL 15.
Okay, I can see that now. I'm going to uncap that in the engine so that spell like abilities can exceed CL 15.

Locked