Demons, Devils and DM Quests:

[Mr_Rieper]

This is definitely not a rant thread. I'm intending this to be more of a brainstorming, idea thread.

The problem: Demons and devils, at this point, have become too much of a good thing. While I can respect the fact that many DMs are just as fed up with planning elaborate quests and having them ruined by ignorant adventurers, I feel like the effect that devils and demons used to have has been diminished by their frequency. This is probably why they aren't on the Prime very often in lore, and normally only summoned by very powerful magi. When you grow too familiar with something, it loses its value as an adversary. The fact that we can carve a path through Baator, Dis and the Abyss certainly cheapens them as everyday mooks for epic characters to kill.

In short, if the appearance of a new villain causes everybody to collectively roll their eyes and groan, that's not a great way to start something. Stories lose the excitement when we've seen the same thing over and over, we should mix it up more often. There are also lore issues when demons and devils appear on the Prime for little to no reason, and en masse. It would take a lot of resources to do this, and they appear to be doing it for random evil intentions.

So I made this thread to suggest, in broad strokes, ideas for events that don't need to be triggered by particular characters. As in, the random good/bad/ugly events that happen to the Isle of Arelith, just because.

My suggestion is that I absolutely love the concept of foreign invasions to the Isle. It doesn't necessarily even need to be a particular country. A fleet of raiders/bandits that arrive to the Isle, led by their legendary old hero that looks like a grey bear and his officers. A new tribe of goblins that built ships out of twigs and grass. Lizardmen tribes that crossed over the channel between Arelith and the Moonshaes. Strange creatures from the Nelanther Isles. A new giantkin leader that militarizes his clan.

If we are worried about explaining why some traditionally "weak" characters are able to fight epic level characters, it's possible to show evidence of them undergoing intense training, or scavenging for magical equipment. Little clues that suggest they worked really hard to be able to fight us, etc.

I'd also love to see more NPCs with personality on the enemy side. An ambitious officer that reports to the big bad. A captain who screams in defiance of the adventurers as he is defeated. A scurvy pirate that really likes oranges. New names and personalities would really make the DM events more memorable. Some well placed comedy, or characters showing a more comedic side can also ease the relentless tension and make the tension that follows even more exciting.

I feel like there's more potential than simply devils and demons, and it's reached the point where it actually cheapens conflicts by involving them. It's also important to have "normal" events to show how Forgotten Realms morality works. It's not evil to kill the person who attacks you. They don't have to be a devil to deserve death.

Please offer your own thoughts and suggestions. This is not a DM bashing thread.

[Griefmaker]

Invasion of changelings/dopplegangers.

Every character on the isle is duplicated (stats, gear, and all) at least once and one never knows if they are the real person or an imposter (see the shapeshifters from Star Trek Deep Space Nine as inspiration for this).

Is that the actual chancellor or an imposter making laws? Your fellow guard could actually be a foe in disguise who is gathering intel, planning sabotage, or the like. Why is Darth Vader suddenly out petting puppies instead of skinning them for new boots?

How to tell who is who? Diviners have an interesting ability which could help with that.

[Cortex]

How about a crazed cult without demons or devils involved?

[Luth]

Calling on barbarian pirates.
Calling on barbarian pirates.
There's nothing that can beat fending off hordes of vikings invading our lawn.

[kittenblackfriends]

I know the event I did for Champion of Mystra was focused through Talassans and robots. But I fed that to my DM (ty Wish :* )

I would totally be down for pirates.

[Diegovog]

I have always had a fascination for githyanki and aboleth.

That being said, I think the majority of DM events I've seen there were interesting NPCs that had potential to be memorable. But always depends on us, the players, to show how much we will give them importance. Otherwise it risks to turn into a "Skeletor" kind of reoccurring villain that is coming back just because it has to. DMing must be so hard... You have this concept of an amazing villain that can be incredibly interesting but at the end the players don't even bother to find out anything about it or give it any importance at all. Must be hard!

[DarkDreamer]

I love Titania and Wish, the rare times I can get in their events, I never know whats gonna happen and its truly kept me on the edge of my seat every time.

[caldura firebourne]

A scurvy pirate that really likes oranges.

firstly, if he likes oranges, why does he have scurvy?

on topic however, I really like some of the events such as the impending war between the drow houses of Freth and Claddath, at one point house Freth had summoned devil's to guard the devil's table district, after some player intervention of which the details were never made public enough for me to know about, the first house proceeded to summon demons alongside the devils, eventually turning the district into a mini blood war

alot of RP between "locks" of devilish or demonic persuasion goes from distaste of the opposition to outright hostilities, it could be argued that this continued behavior keeps the bigger entities from the abyss and Baator from sending more powerful and valuable units to the prime, thus risking them, or it could be easily turned into an event where one side decides to do just that to claim a foothold, while the other does the same in response creating a larger scale version of the mini blood war across arelith as a whole, either concept is interesting to me

In short, if the appearance of a new villain causes everybody to collectively roll their eyes and groan

yes this reaction is widely used in my opinion, however I've also noticed much the same reaction to "yet another goodie" from playing the opposite side. I honestly don't think good vs. evil is balanced too strongly in one direction or the other, and reacting like this to "yet another evil/good character" tends to make the players aware of the particular situation assume they're just like every other evil/good character and basically ignore them afterwards because you already know you've seen it before. it leads to a lot of good roleplay going unnoticed and in my opinion is a reaction best avoided all around.

some of the best ways I've seen to get an interesting dm event going is to start something on your character and get alot of interest in it, for example, the quest for the sword of benwick, and then contact a dm about making something out of it. Those quests tend to make the best stories and be the most fun to be involved in, rather than putting all of the weight on the shoulders of DMs. If you want something to happen, get it started.

[Mr_Rieper]

Caldura, are you sure we're reading the same thread?

Due to the nature of how NPCs work in NWN, with their hostile settings, it's extremely difficult if not impossible to make groups of NPCs fight one another, or have complex battles with NPCs and players fighting alongside one another against other NPCs and players. It has to do with the way NWN's AI works.

It's because of this that we have so many events where the evil NPCs are as unsympathetic and evil as possible. Likely to discourage too many player characters from siding with them, and needing messy battle scenes. This is probably why demons and devils are so popular as NPC antagonists, because 95% of people would agree they are bad for everybody, even evil people.

Unfortunately this has its problems. Demons and devils are already fighting a Blood War, they wouldn't bother with the Prime unless it was related to harvesting souls or they were summoned against their will. But this isn't a discussion thread about their lore.

There are plenty of other things that can be tried. Which is why we have this thread. To compile suggestions on other things to use that are not directly related to anybody's RP on Arelith. Because of course the absolute best and most organic way to create an event is from somebody's RP, but this doesn't always happen. Sometimes events are because the DM feels like it, or has a great idea. This is a thread filled with ideas.

Raiders, cultists, invaders from foreign nations, dopplegangers - all of it sounds great so far.

[Dr_Hazard89]

A beholder, willing crazy things into being until the dreaming beholder is found and slain!
Wheeee.

[Durvayas]

Due to the nature of how NPCs work in NWN, with their hostile settings, it's extremely difficult if not impossible to make groups of NPCs fight one another, or have complex battles with NPCs and players fighting alongside one another against other NPCs and players. It has to do with the way NWN's AI works.

Not as hard as you'd think. You can do this using NPC factions. The issue becomes where you want them hostile to one set of PCs and not the other. This is hard, if not impossible for DMs to do on the fly. Devs though, can easily(if rather time consumingly) plan large battles of NPCs.

[The GrumpyCat]

I'm not quite sure that all the onus lies on us as DMs. In my time as DM, I do not believe I've ever run a major quest involving Devils. I've assisted in the running of one (Temerity's) but I don't think I've ever touched them off my own back
However, they are frequently requested by players as part of an event, and it's not hard to see why. Devils/Demons are a major part of this server.

Let's say that we did decide that Devils/Demons were to be a really rare thing. To remove their presence would mean:

Retweaking at least 3 classes (Sorc, Wizard, Cleric.)

Hugely changing the lore of another. (Blackguard)

Removing entirely Warlock.

It would mean the removal of Tieflings and Imps.

It would mean the removal of a chunk of the deity book.

It would mean the removal of 20+ areas (Abyss, Baator)

Removal of at least one Guildhouse.

Removal of many items.

And changing the spawns for various other areas too (Benwick immedatly comes to mind, but there are a few other areas that use demons/devils that arn't in the hells.)

If you see a lot of DMs using devils and demons, it's because... aside from balence issues, and ease issues, players like demons/devils as enemies and, as 'allies' too. They regularly ask for them in Dm quest requests.

There's something inately epic and exciting about them. 'Percy the Paladin, Slayer of the Pirate King!' is epic, but not as epic as 'Percy the Paladin, slayer of the Demon King!'

Again - with the exception of Temerity's event, I can say with certainty I have, off my own back, run absoltly 0 events involving demons/Devils.
I have run events that -PLAYERS ASKED FOR- involving Demons/Devils
I have run events that by their nature had to include Demons/Devils. (If you're causing a mess in Baator, it'd be a bit wierd if I dropped pirates on you)
But off my own back? Of my own volition? I can tell you I do not recall using said creatures. And truthfully, outside of Temerity's event? I cannot recall any other Dm of late doing so either.

[Mr_Rieper]

Of course, if the idea for an event was conceived through in-game roleplay that involves demons and devils, it would be wierd if it suddenly went the way of pirate kings and monsters from outer space. If players roleplay asking for the aid of demons and devils, then it should be no surprise that they get a response from the demons and devils themselves.

I have no problems with this. None. Good on them for starting something.

I'm also definitely not advocating that the devil and demon related areas on the server are removed or changed. Definitely not. You are 100% correct in saying it is a major part of this server, for better or for worse, and it should stay that way.

However, there are several things I disagree on.

There's nothing innately exciting and epic about an enemy that is extremely common. I get more excited when my characters hear about and see Amnian invaders than a new Abyssal Prince. Why? Is it because Amnians are more badass and evil than demons? Again, definitely not. It's simply a case of familiarity breeding contempt. Whether it's an invasion by Paush, an evil demon hunting for unholy artifacts, the cultists somehow always being buddies with demons and the Abyss, the imminent world ending catastrophe that threatens to destroy us all if we don't band together, it gets tiring. It gets old, if I can be honest with you in a way that doesn't cause offense. The people of Arelith, by now, would probably be like "Oh, another demon invasion? Oh well, the adventurers will handle it again." - AND THIS SHOULD DEFINITELY NOT BE THE CASE!

Demons and devils are meant to be really scary and a massive threat! They should inspire fear, it should be a huge risk for Peter the Paladin to nearly sacrifice himself killing their leader. They are the delicious cake of epic villainous enemies, it should be something you really look forward to. But what happens when you eat too much cake? You don't turn into cake, that's for certain (My mother is a liar). No. You feel nauseous.

Are we going to be punished for realistically roleplaying our characters as not really being scared or worried about the demonic invasion that is very similar to the last ten? Because it is really, really tiring. And up until now, I've just sucked it up and thought "Well, might as well find reasons to enjoy it." and wait until it's over. But then it happens again. And again.

I didn't want to go off on a rant, and I apologise if I've caused any offense, but it's not good when you're forcing yourself to pay attention to something. If these events are caused by players, so be it (I'll find you later), but for the most part, I think variety is the spice of life. Leave the demons and devils on the shelf, you can't be afraid of something if its in your face constantly. The Amnian event was just fantastic, I wish they'd be a more aggressive, imperial nation that interferes more often. I didn't even take part directly and I still absolutely loved the offshoot RP that it spawned.

I can imagine the demons and devils being just as reluctant to answer to pleas for help of their earthly "cultists" and allies as the Celestials would be, if we're being honest. Just putting that out there. The way celestials are portrayed on the server is pretty underwhelming. They often turn down people asking for help, and they're supposed to be the good guys. It's funny we apply lore accuracy to the Celestials but not the Infernals or Abyssals.

I think, by this point, this is just as much a thread with a plea and ideas for the players as it is to the DMs. We can do better than constant devils and demons.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I would echo some of what DM GrumpyCat said, and remain critical that the abundance of demons/devils in DM quests perhaps has less to do with actual DMs, and more to do with a) the context of the server and b) players and their characters.

Some of the largest evil factions on the server have been infernalists and abyssals. We have portals to the Abyss and to Baator.

While I'd love to see a less high fantasy approach to anything, it's an innate being to Dungeons and Dragons.

My only consideration is that I love it when DM quests even new lore, that players are wholly ignorant to and thus we cannot debate. Some of the worst sort of strife around DM quests is when players (not characters) disagree with principles of a DM quest, or with some of the ideas that are being introduced.

We talk about Arelith not-being-3.0/3.5 and not-being-actual-Forgotten-Realms, so I'd love to see more DM quests that generate Arelith-specific bad guys, or Arelith-specific lore. (One of my beloved NPCs is Maximilian the Accountant, the ambiguous bad-guy who's brokered/traded information with PCs in past historic events.)

Like I think it'd be so cool if there were DM quests involving a new Plane of Existence only reachable via Arelith because the cosmic reality is to screwed up. Stuff like that is cool. We don't need to hinge ourselves on whats in sourcebooks or on candlekeepforums or on the FR wiki. I think DM quests could be a lot more exciting if there's a new-ness to it, that players can't just look up and research, but rather actively have to engage in a plot to learn more about it.