The IC-OOC Interface

[Kangles]

The IC and OOC dimensions of the server are inseparable from one another. Contents of forum posts cannot be branded strictly IC matters or strictly OOC matters, as there's no such thing as a matter wholly one and not the other. The "solve it IG" vs "but this one's complex bro" back-and-forth hasn't helped anyone in like, 10 years. Methinks we need a paradigm-shift.

No character has ever done anything that her player didn't evaluate as more worthwhile than logging out of the server, else the player'd have logged out. Nothing happens IC to your character without passing through your player-ly eyeballs, where IC events get touched intimately (and sometimes inappropriately!) by your dirty and unbelonging OOC opinions and biases.

All this to say: hear out the guy who says a problem needs to be tackled ICly when you say it oughta be OOCly, and vice versa. There's a good chance the problem exists at both ends.

[Mr_Rieper]

And then, at the same time, we've witnessed decades of this server being around. I've only got a few years myself, but others have been here for two or three times longer.

The main frustration I have lately is that since the new admin team took over, there's been a staggering amount of progress, but there has also been a staggering amount of begging for mechanical change on the forums. It's all the Shanty has become, a meme thread, a thread for saying you'll be gone for a while, and dozens of threads about mechanics. Those threads are either whining or begging, or somewhere in between.

There's been this fixation with "I don't have many mechanical options, so therefore it's broken and this is unfair." A good and recent example is IG politics. Ever notice how the closer we cleave to mechanics, the more boring and stagnant the RP surrounding it becomes? I've definitely noticed it. This is a roleplay server, but many of us seem to give up before showing some real initiative. Instead of treating it like a story, they treat it like a game they cannot win.

And to be fair, this is a game. But it's not just a game. It's a roleplaying game, on a roleplaying server. So yes, mechanics are an important piece to the puzzle, but there are plenty of areas of untapped potential. The devs haven't considered every option available to players, and therefore many of the paths forward are not going to have mechanical support. This doesn't mean they can't be done. So do your thing, maybe you'll inspire the devs.

TL:DR - Mechanics are important, but exhaust your roleplay options before taking it to the forums. People are too quick to whine and give up.

[Dr_Hazard89]

The obvious solution is ego death.

[HindianaJones]

IC should be separated from OOC to the best of your abilities whilst playing a character. That doesn't mean you can't have opinions about how mechanics should be handled, or how rules should be designed, items in the game, and so on. What it does mean is that you shouldn't be using OOC influence to make things happen IC, which is what seems to have occurred in numerous threads over the past few months.

When I argue for IC/OOC separation, I am arguing for:
- The understanding that when a character does something nasty to another character, it is not the player trying to harm or impede the fun of the other player.
- The understanding that when a player is roleplaying an evil character who does nasty/evil things, it does not mean that the player is a nasty person.
- That one character of a player shouldn't automatically know everything that the same player's other characters know.
- That a character should think about death differently to the player thinking about death, to the character it is their life, to the player it is a small inconvenience and penalties.
- That a character may not know <insert plenty of mechanics>, despite a player knowing it.
- That people shouldn't resort to OOC communication in tells to try and influence a situation that isn't going the way they want, instead they should continue to attempt to influence the situation IC.
- The understanding that what happens in the game isn't personal - it's part of a make-believe world that we play a role in.
- The understanding that we're part of something bigger and we play a single role out of many.

This isn't an exhaustive list, but it should give a general idea of what I'm talking about.

[cptcuddlepants]

Some of the worst RP experiences I've had came from people who liked to flaunt "lol it's just IC, get over it" as an excuse to do whatever they want.

That people shouldn't resort to OOC communication in tells to try and influence a situation that isn't going the way they want, instead they should continue to attempt to influence the situation IC.

This is something I don't quite agree with because I think OOC communication is important. What if a player isn't comfortable with certain topics coming up in RP? How do you want to do this, are there any things you want/don't want done with your character, what would you prefer to happen, are there any situations that you're uncomfortable with and don't want to play out; I don't think anything bad can come out of figuring that out in tells and coming up with something that both sides agree on.

Ever notice how the closer we cleave to mechanics, the more boring and stagnant the RP surrounding it becomes?

The more things favor mechanics and game balance, the harder it is for things to be believable in RP.

The more things favor RP, the more imbalanced and head-scratchy mechanics become.

Like the food/water stuff, for instance. Very realistic, good for RP, but mechanics-wise I think most people think it's unnecessary and is just something that makes characters look like they're about to throw up every now and then.

[HD52]

Some of the worst RP experiences I've had came from people who liked to flaunt "lol it's just IC, get over it" as an excuse to do whatever they want.

That people shouldn't resort to OOC communication in tells to try and influence a situation that isn't going the way they want, instead they should continue to attempt to influence the situation IC.

This is something I don't quite agree with because I think OOC communication is important. What if a player isn't comfortable with certain topics coming up in RP? How do you want to do this, are there any things you want/don't want done with your character, what would you prefer to happen, are there any situations that you're uncomfortable with and don't want to play out; I don't think anything bad can come out of figuring that out in tells and coming up with something that both sides agree on.

He means a situation where OOC, mechanical influences are the cause of the message and not OOC, emotional influences; for example, a player with MoD joining group PVP of their own accord and then shooting a tell to the enemy saying, "Don't kill me! I only have 4 MoD lives left!" This is using OOC mechanics to influence IC response. It's also manipulative in a negative way.

If an evil character captures yours in a place they don't belong, they may want to torture your character. If you send an OOC tell that you're not comfortable with torture, they may decide to kill you instead. This may not be what you want, but it is taking an OOC cause to create an IC result.

If you are uncomfortable with a situation, shooting a tell to have the topic abandoned isn't wrong. It's also fine to communicate OOC to come up with a result that both sides enjoy. However, the player on the other side of the screen can deny communication and that is their right. They also may not decide on something you like. Contact DMs if they go over the line.

[Marauder]

IC should be separated from OOC to the best of your abilities whilst playing a character. That doesn't mean you can't have opinions about how mechanics should be handled, or how rules should be designed, items in the game, and so on. What it does mean is that you shouldn't be using OOC influence to make things happen IC, which is what seems to have occurred in numerous threads over the past few months.

When I argue for IC/OOC separation, I am arguing for:
- The understanding that when a character does something nasty to another character, it is not the player trying to harm or impede the fun of the other player.
- The understanding that when a player is roleplaying an evil character who does nasty/evil things, it does not mean that the player is a nasty person.
- That one character of a player shouldn't automatically know everything that the same player's other characters know.
- That a character should think about death differently to the player thinking about death, to the character it is their life, to the player it is a small inconvenience and penalties.
- That a character may not know <insert plenty of mechanics>, despite a player knowing it.
- That people shouldn't resort to OOC communication in tells to try and influence a situation that isn't going the way they want, instead they should continue to attempt to influence the situation IC.
- The understanding that what happens in the game isn't personal - it's part of a make-believe world that we play a role in.
- The understanding that we're part of something bigger and we play a single role out of many.

This isn't an exhaustive list, but it should give a general idea of what I'm talking about.

I wholeheartedly agree with all of this, except for the bit about resorting to OOC communication. There are certainly times where OOC communication is needed. Example:

Player A is located somewhere that normal citizenry shouldn't be, but they have a permit to do so. Player B is a high-ranking officer in the Cordor Guard. In RP, Player B catches Player A. After Player A's character explains the situation, Player B still attempts to kick Player A out, or arrest them. The conversation OOCly goes one of two ways:

ROUTE ONE

Player A: "Hey! Just checking - did you see the post where my character explained why he's here?"
Player B: "Oop, no I seem to have missed that, sorry!"

And the interaction is settled ICly from there. OR...

ROUTE TWO

Player A: "Hey! Just checking - did you see the post where my character explained why he's here?"
Player B: "I did! My character just has an iron fist and exercises authority whenever she can."
Player A: "Ah, gotcha! Thanks for letting me know."

And the interaction progresses from there ICly, likely with an argument and Player A's character leaving frustrated and frazzled. Or however the characters would react!

Now, both conversations hinge on Player A and Player B being emotionally separated from their characters, but not logically. And I think that's where the problem is. We get so offended when our characters are treated poorly that we take it as a slight against the player, when that's not the case at all. Sometimes we need to be reminded of that OOCly, which is why communication is important.

[Kangles]

Like a good web interface, you want as much of the back-end (here OOC stuff) hidden from the front-end (here IC stuff) as possible. I think this is the sentiment most people are trying to foster when they try to hold the IC world as separate as possible from the OOC world. It's a good sentiment.

In keeping with the analogy, though, a good front-end shouldn't disconnect the user from the functionality the back-end has to offer. In trying to keep things as IC as possible, let's not forget that we define our 40RPR standard as being able to say on an OOC level "if I change my IC behaviour right now, it'll foster a better community and story".

It also pays to remember that some of the better large-scale conflicts in Arelithian history had some OOC pre-planning. Extending this to mechanics lets us ask questions like "how will mechanic X foster a better community and story" as we can ask about our pivots in character-concept. As much as it's worthwhile to keep the IC-OOC interface as clean as possible, severing ties with the OOC dimension of in-game problems only narrows the space of available solutions.

Yeah, ego-death I guess.

[Diegovog]

I think one perfect example of how hand-to-hand IC and OOC is, was the topic about yoink in captivity.

IC: Your character was captured by their mortal enemies, with the possibility of being tortured, enslaved, killed and a possible ally is trying to save you by conjuring. Will your character accept it IC? Of course! Not a second thought!
OOC: You take into consideration that the other group went through a lot of trouble to create that scenario and they got you fair and square. Why don't you give them a chance to carry on with the RP and ignore the yoink for now? And there you go, a simple OOC decision overriding an IC one for the benefit of RP and you might have made the whole scenario MUCH richer and interesting.

Something I read in here (and I don't remember who, sorry!) is how important it is to know when to fall/lose. You character wouldn't want it, but by doing so you might make things 100x more interesting and enjoyable. Kudos to whoever posted that, because now I took this advice and I've noticed people have been enjoying my rp more.

At the end of the day it's all about being reasonable

[Mr_Rieper]

She should have died hereafter.
There would have been a time for such a word.
Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time,
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

The whole ego death thing reminded me of this. Macbeth's speech before the battle. Made me think of anonymity and our places as roleplayers. I apologise to the folks that don't like Shakespeare.

Basically, we're all idiots for thinking that our characters are important. Just laugh and enjoy it. It's dangerous to take yourself too seriously. You might have forests moving to attack you.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I will not deny there exist many OOC barriers to certain avenues of roleplay. Old Light Keep was an example of small c conservatism through an OOC friend clique that was hostile to change. On the sheer idea that one of my characters was to become a part of the old Council, there were statements made that not only would characters leave Light Keep, but players would too. Sadly, it never came to be.

I hate that kind of thing. Unfortunately, what are you going to do about it? It's not against the rules, it's certainly bad taste, but if a DM brings hammer down on "bad taste" they enter the arena of subjectivity and gossipmongering and allegations of favourtism. So I don't blame DMs from shying away from this kind of poor taste roleplay.

I do think OOC and IC are instriniscally linked. Absolutely 100%. It is the total reason why factions I have been apart of, or led, were so successful. Like-minded players in a common setting will produce great things. This is OOC qualities of players influencing IG roleplay.

There's a reason why your RPR is attached to your CD Key, and not your individual character. RPR is a contribution to you, as a player, which fundamentally involves OOC sentiments as much as IG sentiments.

I just don't believe getting worked up in a public, out of game manner is going to be beneficial to anyone.

You know what I think is the saddest example of this kind of dilemma? For any who remember, the Liberated Territories was a shining example of how wholly resistant a playerbase can be to a mild inconvenience. The only reason the Liberated Territories survived was because DMs were angry there were so many players (not characters) who treated the idea like shit, and the players of the LT, like shit.

Honestly, I'm sometimes surprised, for you would think that a roleplaying community filled with people who play faeries, and gays, and women, and kobolds, with large ideas of kindness, and acceptance, and toleration, it has often been a very, very resistant community to large, sweeping in-game changes.

I'm sure we all have our examples of being involved in OOC disputes where you are a part of a new guard, trying to oust the old. Or maybe you were the old guard, afraid of the new.

I think it's one of the saddest things on Arelith, generally. And while the idea of longevity and continuity are important, I think they're often overshadowed. But I'm glad we're having conversations about this link between IC-OOC. Maybe more people will rethink,

"Have I been around X faction too long that I'm hogging the spotlight for new growth, and new players? Have I gotten too attached to my characters outlook, that it's starting to interfere with my own? Have I put myself in that opposing player's shoes, to make sure I'm ICly calling their idea stupid, not OOCly? Have I reached out and kudos'd someone lately, who's not apart of my normal clique? Have I reconsidered what is not best for me, and my RP, but for my broader faction, or the Arelithian community as a whole?

These are questions I keep close at hand, lately.

[Black Wendigo]

One of my biggest issues with the server has been one that was mentioned above: People believing that "Always RP means you can do what you want IC without regard to ))Ceffects on players. I very much believe that IC behavior should not be mixed with OOC opinions, feelings and so forth, but there is such a thing as respect for the real players behind the RP.

The worst experiences I have had have been with people putting their own interpretations of the rules ahead of caring about how other people feel about that.

[Catchup]

Just wanted to say that I agree with Seven.

There is an ooc factor indeed.

But to play a very old character is to run the risk of developing an ego and a bias.

Specially if that character is in a position of power.

[Durvayas]

A good example of the link between IC-OOC is political takeovers. If you have enough overwhelming power, it can be tempting to obliterate your opposition in PvP. Within the rules, you could scry-gank your opponents daily, but there is a thing called winning too hard.

When you win too hard, your opposition starts shelving, gets frustrated, and some may quit the server. Its important to give your opponents space to breathe, otherwise they simply stop bothering to play their character and conflict is over. No RP comes of a character that is gone, and people don't like being forced to shelve because they're being PvPed constantly and consistently. Additionally, ruling with such a harsh iron fist also discourages, on an ooc level, the creation of resistance movements if players are concerned doing so will render their characters unplayable. This is especially important to keep in mind playing in the UD, where there is nowhere for non-humans to go if things should go south in a big way. The ramifications of winning too hard should be taken into account in these situations to avoid player attrition, and the intensity of the PvP onslaught adjusted accordingly to give opposition a fighting chance, else why would they bother at all?

[WanderingPoet]

I've generally found the best RP OOC/IC separate 'rule' is to focus on working together to tell a stellar story.

Sometimes that means losing so that someone else can win, sometimes that means helping your side win, sometimes that means everyone has a draw and lives to fight another day, sometimes it means not being important and helping someone else shine and sometimes it means shooting your opponent a mini-kudos after they squash you like a bug under their dragon, because it was fun regardless.

The nice thing about RPing is you can craft a great story with other people, something everyone remembers fondly - sometimes even those not involved. This is rarely something that can happen in the real world, and often OOC can help facilitate.

[Marauder]

Have I been around X faction too long that I'm hogging the spotlight for new growth...

This. To expand a little on it, I think it's also important for all of us to be reminded frequently that a truly good writer will not only step back from the spotlight at times, but willingly and eagerly provide opportunities for other characters to shine. This, for the most part, applies to faction/group leaders in my opinion. Meaning, a good faction leader will - instead of hogging all the spotlight and glory and prestige for the group's actions - take an active role in making the people he leads the "heroes" of certain stories and situations. (As a random aside, even though I've had very little interaction with him, I've seen that Kuma does a great job of this as Casimir. It's why his inner circle is so big - he actively gives them things to do. Just as well, this was the same reason that Seven's Knights of the Road were so successful when he was playing Nelehein, the same reason Janine's Nomad crew from 983 years ago was so active and eager...it's because those involved were all part of the story, they weren't just along for the ride.)

This is not to say that the person themselves never gets any spotlight; after all, we all enjoy a little recognition now and again. But I have seen in previous communities and previous situations, people that are only interested in making themselves and their own character look good. And that, frankly, is poor RP leadership.

HOWEVER, this is also the responsibility of every day RPers, not just faction/group leaders, and this applies to every alignment. Recognize the people you RP with. Be willing to change your mentality from "It's my character, so obviously it's the main protagonist from my perspective" to "Sometimes I'll be a sidekick, and that's alright."

tl;dr, My main philosophy as an RP writer is to give as many people as much of the spotlight as I can.