Okay, time to rediscuss this....

[WinkinBlinkin]

I am always amazed by the different perception filters people apply to written posts. It feels like the main point you have taken from my post is: More losers whingeing again.

Which is a pity, as my actual points were supposed to be:

It is possible to be on the receiving end of frequent PvP without being a person who instigates a lot of PvP.

Some PvP is completely devoid of meaning.

Repeated PvPing does not necessarily mean that any rules are being broken and can come from perfectly valid roleplaying reasons on the part of the aggressors. However, a lack of intent to limit someone else's fun does not always mean that the other person's fun is not being impacted regardless.

Limited options exist for those on the receiving end of repeated beatings and it would help to have more options in order to evade these continuing. Doing this would enable those wanted to engage in tyrannical and violent rp to do so, whilst still allowing their victims to avoid them with some effort.

I don't think the Shadow Plane has to be a large and comfortable settlement. The place to hide out should not be somewhere relaxing or safe. It should be somewhere that gives you motivation to get back in the fray. If it gets overcrowded with exiles from the same place, this should be fertile ground for mounting some kind of counter attack.

[DM Noxt]

The issue with there being no alternative to Andunor for Underdarkers is on the team's radar and it's in our plans to address that.

If you're targeted by gank squads over and over despite doing nothing to anger them, or are killed by someone every 24 hours, report it. For all the talk about these things happening, the DM team gets very few reports about PvP. As far as we're concerned, if you don't report it, it didn't happen.

[WinkinBlinkin]

That's the thing, I think most people targeted by gank squads over and over HAVE done things to anger them.

If you rp being a tyrant, it can be fun to rp crushing and subjugating all opposition. It is definitely a massive challenge to rise to the top and those who get there have usually put an enormous investment into doing so. When you are at the top, sometimes you can be very successful, and have huge spy networks, gangs of brownshirts, etc. At this point, you can rp crushing the opposition really well. People flock to the winning side. This is when small indiscretions can have disproportionate effects, because everyone wants to get on the Big Bad's good side, by destroying their enemies.

There's nothing wrong with playing the tyrant and nothing wrong with wanting to roleplay being on the side of the big oppressor. Taking on a huge evil force and getting caught should have massive implications. However, being killed repeatedly in these situations is probably bad enough without having to have additional penalties. Making sure that people are not completely disincentivised to take on the Big Bad rather than stop playing their character completely is important as well. There are definitely periods, not continuous, but in phases, where gank sqauds are a thing that causes a number of players to just disappear off the player lists for a while. And whilst this is not always an entirely bad thing, and can be a perfectly valid rp response to being targeted by the Big Bad of the moment, it would be fantastic to have other options as well. Its great to hear that the team are looking into it.

Whilst people who find themselves serially ganked by tyrants might be a bit peeved by the new death rules, I would imagine that these situations are not the ones the DMs are trying to solve with the death penalties. My guess is that they are more thinking about Fred who keeps coming into Bendir Dale and weeing on the statues of Brandobaris, despite being killed twenty times in the past week by the Hawks (not played a hin in years, so please excuse cultural errors). I can imagine it must be quite hard to target one of those groups without negatively affecting the other. I also, sadly, imagine that there are more statue wee-ers than freedom fighters.

[Cerk Evermoore]

For the people banned from Anduinor, it's a great opportunity don't waste it. If your enemies are in one place, go move somewhere else. That's the real Outcast backstory.

[Lady of Memes]

I am always amazed by the different perception filters people apply to written posts. It feels like the main point you have taken from my post is: More losers whingeing again.

Which is a pity, as my actual points were supposed to be:

It is possible to be on the receiving end of frequent PvP without being a person who instigates a lot of PvP.

Some PvP is completely devoid of meaning.

Repeated PvPing does not necessarily mean that any rules are being broken and can come from perfectly valid roleplaying reasons on the part of the aggressors.

I don't think the Shadow Plane has to be a large and comfortable settlement. The place to hide out should not be somewhere relaxing or safe. It should be somewhere that gives you motivation to get back in the fray. If it gets overcrowded with exiles from the same place, this should be fertile ground for mounting some kind of counter attack.

That- was not what I was saying. Yes, the way you word your statement sounds like you're upset about certain pvp encounters you've endured but I never said you were whining. If I wanted to troll you and call you out on 'whining' I would have posted some meme that read 'get gud scrub' or something. I don't believe that's a very adult way of handling a situation, aside from just joking around. I believe I was very polite and forward with my argument.

To quote Big Daddy Noxt,

If you're targeted by gank squads over and over despite doing nothing to anger them, or are killed by someone every 24 hours, report it. For all the talk about these things happening, the DM team gets very few reports about PvP. As far as we're concerned, if you don't report it, it didn't happen.

If you don't report the abuse of pvp towards your character then it's never going to be seen or addressed. Posting on the forums gives /no/ evidence of these happenings and thus nothing can be done because you cannot prove it. It's on your word alone. - And it wouldn't be fair to act on that alone.

Repeated PvPing does not necessarily mean that any rules are being broken and can come from perfectly valid roleplaying reasons on the part of the aggressors.

Actually, it can. This is why we have the Be Nice rule put into place. Repeatedly killing and corpse bashing people is a rule-break in itself. You only need to prove it via logs or screenshots.

I know for a fact this instance has been punished in the past to aggressors who would pvp people and corpse bash constantly before any death changes happened and it was a 6000 exp loss at corpse bashing. In fact, I've been told stories of people who used to run around Arelith doing nothing but killing lowbies and corpse bashing for fun get banned from all settlements and then finally permabanned from the server. I wasn't there to witness this, but I have friends who've been here long enough to remember a time like that.

If you can prove that this is ooc. If it is just for fun. Or they are just literally griefing you every day until you quit? That is a rule break. And it can be punished.

That's the thing, I think most people targeted by gank squads over and over HAVE done things to anger them.

If you can't handle the ic consequences then do not do the ic actions.

If you know you've upset someone oocly and they are responding by bulling you ic then provide the evidence and it will be taken care of.

[Durvayas]

For the people banned from Anduinor, it's a great opportunity don't waste it. If your enemies are in one place, go move somewhere else. That's the real Outcast backstory.

The only currently available settlement for this accessible to UD characters is Sibiyad. Having done exactly this for 5 RL months, I can tell you the experience is dismal on a drow. You are restricted to 40 minutes of time that your character can be outside every 2 hours, and ever since the orclands nerf the place is a ghost town. You will spend 80% of your time straight up solo, with 10% of the remaining 20% of your time where you actually encounter PCs PvPing with them.

Does it make for compelling story? Maybe. Does it make for fun gameplay? Not a chance in hell.

[Catchup]

I wish I could find my old post to quote myself. In the absence of that I'll just retype it: Pvp is RP.

Don't think otherwise. If you aren't ready to play do not come down to the rhetorical playground.

Don't want to die? Run. Beg. Fall on your knees. Do not whine OoC for something that happened IC if all the rules were followed.

That's all you have to worry about.

*Hugs* Have fun.

-Catchup

[One Two Three Five]

This isn't in reference to anyone specific, but maybe we as a community could be less callous when it comes to death-in-reference to enjoyment of the game specifically.

This attitude of 'You SHOULDNT get to have fun if x, too bad! log off!' isn't a good one.

[Tourmaline]

I don't think there are that many who think there should be no repercussions to PVP death. That's not something likely to ever change anyway.

I think there are a sizable amount who aren't happy with the exact and arbitrary repercussions we currently have and would like to discuss how to tweak them. That IS something likely to continue being tweaked.

So maybe focus on the latter and set the former aside, including lectures about how PVP is RP or don't PVP if you don't want consequences etc etc? Saying we might not currently have the best possible consequences is a far cry from saying there should be none.

[One Two Three Five]

I don't think there are that many who think there should be no repercussions to PVP death. That's not something likely to ever change anyway.

I think there are a sizable amount who aren't happy with the exact and arbitrary repercussions we currently have and would like to discuss how to tweak them. That IS something likely to continue being tweaked.

So maybe focus on the latter and set the former aside, including lectures about how PVP is RP or don't PVP if you don't want consequences etc etc? Saying we might not currently have the best possible consequences is a far cry from saying there should be none.

This right here. Like in building discussions, no one is under the impression this isn't a roleplay server.

[The Kriv]

Not a punishment, it's a consequence for dying. Stop dying.

My characters don't usually die. Very seldom. I am not an active PVP'er, and even when I PvE, I am a safty-first kind of player.

Tonight... In a raid by drow on Myon... I sent my character to deliberately intercept the party and delay them, so that (hopefully) the Myon defense group could catch them, engage... and (hopefully) destroy.

I did this knowing full well, it would be me (one archer) against likely 4-6 melee/caster/assassins.

It was a sacrifice play. And of course.. my Myon compadres got their collective arses handed to them. *palmface*


That was litterally almost three hours ago. and my death-debuffs haven't worn off. I participated in the PVP... something I seldom do... and it's pretty much put the kaibash on my evening of high adventure.


Is this a punishment? No. It is a consequence. I readily admit it.


but.. it is a sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky sucky consequence.

[Borgian Oligarchy]

The change doesn't personally affect me. I've been bashed all of 2 times in five years, but...

Definition of Punishment: A penalty for an action or behavior. But the death penalty isn't a punishment. It's a REWARD!!!!

1. Your living space will be cleaner. Who doesn't have a few dishes to take up right? Get out that vacuum and finally suck up all those crumbs from the Hot Pockets you've been eating.
2. You won't be as fat. With your new found time to jump on the treadmill for 20 minutes, you'll finally get that body you've been dreaming of.
3. Death will have more meaning to you. Remember that time you went to your gramma's funeral only to fail to understand the finality of death? Now you get a 20 minute taste of what it means to REALLY DIE! For better results, go out, dig a hole, climb into it. Have a friend pour dirt over you. Lie their for your full 20 minute reprieve from gaming. Contemplate the meaning of death.
4. Finally the powergrinders and powerbuilders get a much-deserved reward for all their hard work, numbers crunching, and PvP phishing. We've neglected this group. Let's be honest. All we've ever given them are higher chances at 5% rolls and a greater chance at getting artifacts. This much-neglected group can finally rejoice that now those people they squelch with their prowess will have to sit there fuming for a full 20 minutes. (Joke's on them. Your houses are getting clean and you're getting in great shape. It's not a punishment.)

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Well thought out, valid opinion

You effectively got to 'sacrifice' yourself to try to save a city. You didn't succeed, but you could have. In which case, your penalty for pulling off a heroic sacrifice that ends in your death is that you can't adventurer for a few hours- at least not at full strength.

As opposed to actually STAYING dead.

Consider this; if your character stayed dead after said heroic sacrifice, would you have still made that attempt?

The disparity in my last question is why, IMO, the penalty NEEDS to exist. People should not consider sacrificing their lives lightly, nor should the sacrifice of one's life routinely be thought of as an acceptable loss 'because I can just come back to life when the fight is over.'

TL;DR - you SHOULD feel like dying sucks, because it keeps you from being willing to throw away the life of your character over insignificant things.

[Nitro]

Well thought out, valid opinion

TL;DR - you SHOULD feel like dying sucks, because it keeps you from being willing to throw away the life of your character over insignificant things.

The notion is nice and all, but I'm just feeling more inclined to make characters without strong morals towards heroism or any particular villainous dogma, because getting timed out for losing in conflict is less fun than just avoiding conflict alltogether.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

It'd be a sad day if there comes an acceptance that conflict should be avoided because we are unwilling to face the mechanical consequences of it, not the roleplay ones.

[Trunx]

Well thought out, valid opinion

You effectively got to 'sacrifice' yourself to try to save a city. You didn't succeed, but you could have. In which case, your penalty for pulling off a heroic sacrifice that ends in your death is that you can't adventurer for a few hours- at least not at full strength.

As opposed to actually STAYING dead.

Consider this; if your character stayed dead after said heroic sacrifice, would you have still made that attempt?

The disparity in my last question is why, IMO, the penalty NEEDS to exist. People should not consider sacrificing their lives lightly, nor should the sacrifice of one's life routinely be thought of as an acceptable loss 'because I can just come back to life when the fight is over.'

TL;DR - you SHOULD feel like dying sucks, because it keeps you from being willing to throw away the life of your character over insignificant things.

Agreed. What weight does a heroic sacrifice to stay behind have if dying means nothing? You SHOULD hesitate to go "oh well, you guys go, I'll die to delay them."

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

It'd be a sad day if there comes an acceptance that conflict should be avoided because we are unwilling to face the mechanical consequences of it, not the roleplay ones.

The mechanical consequences ARE the roleplay consequences. If there are no mechanical consequences, I feel it is fallacious to claim there are any consequences, role-play or otherwise, to your death.

I would be interested in hearing what consequences you feel exist to dying that aren't mechanical in nature. IMO the best bet you have is to cite the emotional reaction of other characters, but even these things are muted by the hand-wave of the re-spawning.

The notion is nice and all, but I'm just feeling more inclined to make characters without strong morals towards heroism or any particular villainous dogma, because getting timed out for losing in conflict is less fun than just avoiding conflict alltogether.

The guy that walks past the mugging in the street and does nothing because he might get hurt is neutral. The fact that most people won't risk themselves is what makes those that do heroic. Without consequences to performing a heroic action, it's not really heroic- it's just expected.

Heroes are heroes because they consider the possible ramifications upon themselves- and then they act anyway. You cannot claim your character has strong morals towards heroism if there is no risk. Without risk, there are no heroics.

People making more neutral characters, because they want to avoid conflict, makes sense and is logical. Most characters in forgotten realms are neutral, not good or evil. If you aren't willing to place yourself at risk for the benefit of others, you aren't good. If you aren't willing to exploit others for your own benefit despite the consequences to them, you aren't evil.

[gilescorey]

The mechanical consequences ARE the roleplay consequences. If there are no mechanical consequences, I feel it is fallacious to claim there are any consequences, role-play or otherwise, to your death.

I would be interested in hearing what consequences you feel exist to dying that aren't mechanical in nature. IMO the best bet you have is to cite the emotional reaction of other characters, but even these things are muted by the hand-wave of the re-spawning.

Do you really feel like having to AFK in the Fugue area for twenty minutes is the difference between a well roleplayed death and one not?

"Consequence" as a term implies that there are winners and losers on an OOC level, and more that the loser ought be punished for daring having lost- in theory, at least, I don't think anyone should say there is a winner or a loser, but that both sides have worked together to create an engaging story. I think it's a lot less fun from a typical mindset to enjoy losing, and that most people would much rather win. Perhaps this "rather win" mindset stems from a feeling of being punished or having to face consequence for fulfilling the role of the loser.

Yes, there are winners and losers in character, but I don't feel like steep death penalties facilitate that more than ones not.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

The mechanical consequences ARE the roleplay consequences. If there are no mechanical consequences, I feel it is fallacious to claim there are any consequences, role-play or otherwise, to your death.

I would be interested in hearing what consequences you feel exist to dying that aren't mechanical in nature. IMO the best bet you have is to cite the emotional reaction of other characters, but even these things are muted by the hand-wave of the re-spawning.

Do you really feel like having to AFK in the Fugue area for twenty minutes is the difference between a well roleplayed death and one not?

"Consequence" as a term implies that there are winners and losers on an OOC level, and more that the loser ought be punished for daring having lost- in theory, at least, I don't think anyone should say there is a winner or a loser, but that both sides have worked together to create an engaging story. I think it's a lot less fun from a typical mindset to enjoy losing, and that most people would much rather win. Perhaps this "rather win" mindset stems from a feeling of being punished or having to face consequence for fulfilling the role of the loser.

Yes, there are winners and losers in character, but I don't feel like steep death penalties facilitate that more than ones not.

I get where you're coming from, and this may just be a difference in our expectations of the "sandbox" we're looking to play in.

The position I'm proposing is that a proper IN-character consequence of 'losing a fight to the death' is... death. Staying dead. Unless someone organically stumbles across your body (if there is one left), 9/10 dead by yourself is dead.

Can you agree with me that this would be worse for the player OOC? Can we also then agree, despite that, that it makes far more sense than the hand-wave respawn we're all willing to overlook in the name of not punishing the player?

Let me frame this in another light- if you, the player, die, that's game over, re-roll a new character. Do you not think being weakened for a few real life hours/days is a much more generous penalty? Does it not provide you with plenty of time and opportunity to treat that death as if it were impactful?

Rather than seeing it as a 'time-out', why not use that little red status penalty in the top right as a reminder to develop your character when they're feeling vulnerable, a moment for them to experience a sense of humility, or to ruminate on how they aren't strong enough and make connections that will help them work on that.

The possibilities are literally endless, and while it is a 'penalty' in the sense that it makes PvE more dangerous and difficult, it only does this if you do not wait and take a pre-defined period of time to role-play around the significance of your own death and revival. You are basically being given your own 15 minutes as Jesus Christ.

And the other character gains the sense of progress that fights to the death are meant for- they remove an obstacle to something that they are willing to die for, or at least reduce its ability significantly for the immediate goals towards that end.




I believe your position is that it's an inconvenience to the player on the same level I view permanent death to the character as an actual inconvenience (it's just a story, and I like my characters, but in my perfect world they will all either die in a blaze of glory/vileness, die as a casualty of the previous, or retire away into obscure prominence).

The question is which end of the spectrum the devs are aiming for, and how many of each there are.

[gilescorey]

Sure - permanent death wouldn't be my idea of fun, and I seriously doubt a lot of other people who play here disagree with that statement. That's not what I mean.

I just think people that are going to RP out a loss, and death, are going to do it because they're good roleplayers, not because of more severe red status penalties at the top left corner.

People who just don't want to roleplay death, or ever lose, aren't going to have a sudden change of heart due to lengthier or harsher penalties.

[Trunx]

People who just don't want to roleplay death, or ever lose, aren't going to have a sudden change of heart due to lengthier or harsher penalties.

No, but they're going to try to avoid repeatedly dying because they don't want to be hit by those penalties. In other words, they'll treat death more seriously.

[One Two Three Five]

Yes, by avoiding conflict entirely. Making for a less dynamic server. Funny, but so few people link the 'Everyone's neutral and wont fight for anything waaaa' complaints to the 'ha ha death should suck, loser, this game is real life' statements.

[Hunter548]

To be fair, the "Everyone's a convictionless blob of meh" has been a problem for much longer than the death penalties have been this bad.

[CragOrion]

The more I play with the new changes to death penalties, the more I find that they're really not that bad. And I've had my fair share of both PvE and PvP deaths lately

[Trunx]

Yes, by avoiding conflict entirely. Making for a less dynamic server. Funny, but so few people link the 'Everyone's neutral and wont fight for anything waaaa' complaints to the 'ha ha death should suck, loser, this game is real life' statements.

Because those things aren't linked, as evident by the fact that nothing's changed between the three iterations of PvP death penalties.