Overhauling ranged weapons

[The Kriv]

I applaud the amount of math above, but I don't believe you can calculate average damge over time without bringing Crits into the mix.

At best longbow weilders (even AA) will have a crit on 19-20. Period. with x3 damage That is 10% chance on each shot... 6 shots per round.

Vs. MOST melee classes which tend to use the x2 weapons, but have the high crit range of 18-20 to begin the game, with 14-20 possible on Fighters with Keen bronze weap's that act like Damask... and Weapon Masters using x4 crit weapons that turn into what... 5x damage?

Those crits that happen with nearly every hit against a medium/low AC target make a HUGE difference.

For example, my lvl 30 archer has a 10% chance of a crit on every arrow, vs a melee character who has a 25% chance of a crit on every hit.

That's 1 in 10 arrows critting, vs. 1 in 4 swings critting. Not to mention everything else being equal, the maximum damage from Strength bonus on my bow is capped at 6points (2-Mighty x 3) vs a melee character who's strength runs in the high 30's has 16 strength damage x2 (or x3, x4 or even x5)

Not to mention the PVP factor, that Archer PC's tend to have low AC (because yeah, they focus on AB) and melee characters have HIGH AC... meaning in a PVP situation, my archer is hitting less, while the melee'er is hitting me almost every whack.

these are huge differences, which isn't really calculated in all the math above.

[vaclavc]

I feel that archers are fine as they are. Their average damage output 300+ hp per round is rather high considering that they can snipe their opponents two screens away. Generally, they have highest AB of all classes, which means they can use Called shot reliably, too.
The only thing that puts them at significant disadvantage is the ability of meleers to move with Expertise/Improved expertise activated. This means that any melee character with those feats can pursue archers with +5/+10 AC bonus activated at no cost, as any combat mode can be deactivated immediatelly.

-V-

[miesny_jez]

1): You can't. Only the ammunition.
2): You can't. Only the ammunition can get flat damage. I'm pretty sure the best heavy crossbow has mighty up to +4 or +6.
3): Again, you can't. Only the ammunition.

The current heavy crossbows are Mighty +6 atm.

And as for the flat damage increase I wasn't aware that You cannot add it into an item property.. well I don't see it a problem anyway - The Parry system adds a flat damage increase to Your character, this could be easily transferred into a flat Crossbow buff working similarly as the parry damage buff.

Lets say: Light Crossbows = +4 flat, Heavy Crossbow = +6 flat

I applaud the amount of math above, but I don't believe you can calculate average damge over time without bringing Crits into the mix.

Of course I fully agree with that - taking into consideration critical hits would greatly change the statistic in the Bow favor in majority of cases and making crossbows little more effective against very high AC enemies (where getting reliable crits would no longer count).. but putting up a full simulation like that is probably a 3 to 4 days of programming to get appropriate and representative numbers and speaking simply I don't have that time to do that.

There is also an online tool for simulating damage/round: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/nwn/

But I am not certain if it isn't a simplified version as well without looking at its code. The provided simplified maths show only the overall and non-crit situation regarding where the ranged weapons damage.

The only thing which I think should change considering what I calculated is:
1) Making Crossbows not suck as much when compared with bows (Mighty-property is not a very good itemization for ranged characters)
2) Making the high grade ammunition actually an improvement instead of relying on cheaper bronze+enchant. Though I think the bronze+enchanting should stay as an alternative
3) Total rebuild of the Bundles system - into something which is more user friendly
4) Add specialized craftable ammunition - things like, blinding, explosive, corrosive, slowing, etc. etc
5) Rethinking of Slings - there is so much You could shoot with a Sling, not only rocks

[kittenblackfriends]

Well, the thing about crossbows is that they're a simple weapon, versus longbows which are martial. On a server like this, with a higher level range, that may not be an issue overmuch, as you probably have a feat or two to spare.

Also:

[If Valor Were Inches]

The only thing which I think should change considering what I calculated is:
1) Making Crossbows not suck as much when compared with bows (Mighty-property is not a very good itemization for ranged characters)
2) Making the high grade ammunition actually an improvement instead of relying on cheaper bronze+enchant. Though I think the bronze+enchanting should stay as an alternative
3) Total rebuild of the Bundles system - into something which is more user friendly
4) Add specialized craftable ammunition - things like, blinding, explosive, corrosive, slowing, etc. etc
5) Rethinking of Slings - there is so much You could shoot with a Sling, not only rocks

1): Crossbows are available to practically every class except druids, while bows require rogue/elf/martial. They are useful for low strength characters needing to temporarily fire from range as their damage won't be decreased as it would be for a bow. Even with their inferiority I use them as a back up for my arcane archer in cases I run out of ammunition on a lengthy adventure. I don't think they need a buff at all, their niche is easy usability.
2): More unique ammunition would be fun. A lot of what you list exists in rare forms.
3): I don't think a total rebuild is necessary. Archer Paths will have it easier, and that's their gift. To be at its best, its costly, but you don't always have to be firing the best.
4): See 2.
5: Slings have a crafting recipe for their ammunition under cooking giving them more variety. Slings can also be used with a shield, and work with the good aim hallfings have, and are bluedgoning, giving them a niche in certain situations, as you can potentially get more AB out of them on a Halfling than you can out of the other alternatives. They also are a range weapon available to non-elven druids, who otherwise are lacking.

[Durvayas]

If slings can be used with a shield, would it be possible to script light crossbows to be one handed to work with shields like slings? :O

[kittenblackfriends]

From a flavor standpoint, I would love to see dual-wielding crossbows. Mechanically speaking, it's not viable though.
Even if you go for the shield, have you ever tried to do fine work without being able to see your hands? Plus shields are often held in place with a hand grip (there are usually two leather straps - one sits on your arm and the other is held in your hand).

[Mountebank]

Just to clarify something, the proposed change from mighty to flat damage for crossbows is possible in NWN, you simply cannot enchant damage onto bows on Regulith. On FL, however, you very much so can. I'm not saying I think its a good or bad idea, but it should be quite possible.