New Death Penalty

[Iceborn]

Oooooookay then.
While I'm going to see how this goes IG and how it affects the game, I'm going to point preemptively that this... I am not sure where it's coming from.
Obviously, the idea is to give death some more meaning, and it misses the mark so hard that you may as well be bending the barrel onto yourself and repeatedly pulling the trigger.

Let me explain this: Death is a consequence, yes. It's one of the risks, if not the main risk, to consider when you involve yourself in certain scenario, so be it trying to tackle a difficult dungeon or getting yourself into PvP.

The first problem that I see here is that the penalties, as we have noticed with the old ones, do not bolster the RP or "give some hook" to keep playing; 9 out of 10 players just... rather log out after dying than dealing with the penalty. This is flatly anathema to the game. Any story that ends with "and then they died, respawned and logged to never talk about it again" is flatly wrong. If you just wanted to lock players from being seen for a while, there are better ways to do that.

The second problem is that with greater penalties, the greater the necessity to "win", and I am fairly sure that we were trying to break free from that mentality. With that necessity, comes more... detrimental elements to the game, as an increasement in things like, and read with me like it's a snake oil commercial, "Power grinding! Gank Squads! Holding to your level 30 characters indefinitely for PvP purposes! Powerbuilding becoming mandatory to not get your posterior handled by every Blackguard/Paladin Joe that just wants to live their power fantasy!".

Somebody mentioned to me that you can "lock" somebody out of RP with constant PvP perfectly within the technical rules. The max timer for the death penalty in PvP with a level 30 character goes up to flatly 120 IG hours. Basically 12~ RL hours. This is plain distasteful for the most part, but it can be done IG, and it has happened.

In my humblest opinion, if you want to make death something to consider, at least for PVP, both players/parties involved have to invest in it to happen. As long as it is remains a one-sided affair of whom has the strongest build with the nicest numbers, there is simply little to no narrative point to it.
And this has to change.

Here's something to consider: Kill a player, and you take as much as exp penalty in doing that. Bash that player, and you take twice as much as they would respawning. Now that's a flat stop to the "I win" mentality.

[Catchup]

I'll respectfully disagree and state that if you aren't mature enough to face the consequences of ic actions you should not come down to the rethorical playground.

[HindianaJones]

I disagree with OP, but I'll expand more when not typing on a phone.

[Cortex]

I'll respectfully disagree and state that if you aren't mature enough to face the consequences of ic actions you should not come down to the rethorical playground.

preach brother

[Lorkas]

Let's don't forget that the Be Nice rule still applies. If someone is systematically PvPing you to lock you out of RP, report them, folks.

[JediMindTrix]

I'll respectfully disagree and state that if you aren't mature enough to face the consequences of ic actions you should not come down to the rethorical playground.

+1

[Iceborn]

This isn't even remotely about me. I've always accepted IC consequences for everything that I've done, and anybody that plays with me know that I am not PvP-happy, and neither I shy from it when the situation demands.

[Nitro]

I'll respectfully disagree and state that if you aren't mature enough to face the consequences of ic actions you should not come down to the rethorical playground.

Isn't that kinda the point though? If the consequences are too harsh, no one wants to play in the rhetorical playground.

[theCountofMonteCristo]

I'll respectfully disagree and state that if you aren't mature enough to face the consequences of ic actions you should not come down to the rethorical playground.

Where exactly does he say that he doesn't want there to be IC consequences for PvP?

From my reading of the post he wants it to be more IC (offer incentive for PvP to be meaningful for all parties involved and further a storyline) and less OOC. As it is, the consequences of losing PvP is "Lulz, now you wait 20 minutes then have respawn penalty hur hur hur"

Unless you mean that you think IC consequences should mean that you can PvP to eliminate adversaries completely?

[Exultate]

I'll respectfully disagree and state that if you aren't mature enough to face the consequences of ic actions you should not come down to the rethorical playground.

Isn't that kinda the point though? If the consequences are too harsh, no one wants to play in the rhetorical playground.

Death should be harsh. Death should suck, and the fact that people take it for granted all the time is unimmersive. When your friend dies and their corpse destroyed, it shouldn't be "oh, he'll pop up back to life over there with some XP loss and a few hours of rez sickness". This was a step in the direction of making the death system more impactful, and I wholeheartedly support it and think it's taking the server in a good direction.

[One Two Three Five]

Death should be harsh. Death should suck

Games should be fun bye

[Ork]

Can't make people roleplay how you want. Arelith has some sort of perverse idea where the burden of enjoyment rests on the other players, not on yourself.

[Shadofury]

Death should be harsh. Death should suck

Games should be fun bye

when you play a game, there are rules and penalties and consequences in regards to certain actions, being in jail sucks in monopoly but its a risk you take when you play, knowing eventually you will get out. its all part of the game and if it made everyone who ever went to jail not ever play again, then i doubt it would still be one of the best selling board games today.

In DnD you play a character and he/she could die due to something. Same thing, and if you cant rp your near dying, end of life being with your god/goddess/ demon/devil or whatever during the stat decrease, doesnt that show something about your attitude toward the game and how you think your time is more important than someone who does?

No this isnt pointed at any one player, just a general question. Because I know I have played it out and it does create some rp, and there have been times where i have had to log out for the day just because things come up.

[Nitro]

Death should be harsh. Death should suck

Games should be fun bye

when you play a game, there are rules and penalties and consequences in regards to certain actions, being in jail sucks in monopoly but its a risk you take when you play, knowing eventually you will get out. its all part of the game and if it made everyone who ever went to jail not ever play again, then i doubt it would still be one of the best selling board games today.

In DnD you play a character and he/she could die due to something. Same thing, and if you cant rp your near dying, end of life being with your god/goddess/ demon/devil or whatever during the stat decrease, doesnt that show something about your attitude toward the game and how you think your time is more important than someone who does?

No this isnt pointed at any one player, just a general question. Because I know I have played it out and it does create some rp, and there have been times where i have had to log out for the day just because things come up.

To follow along with the monopoly example. Would you want to play a game of monopoly where you'd be forced to sit and watch the game for 20RL minutes if you stepped on another players street? I don't disagree that some sort of penalty is in order, but when it gets to the point where you might as well just log off and do something else due to how harsh that penalty is I'd argue that it's gone too far.

And people who aren't currently RP'ing a fear of death or treating death respectfully IC are not the ones who will suddenly change their IC ways over a change to how respawning is handled OOC'ly. Chances are they'll probably avoid PvP conflict to avoid the penalties out of OOC motives rather than IC motives, or just carry on as before.

[Emotionaloverload]

I foresee this turning ugly fast during election season.

I do approve of a hefty penalty on death for the character, not the player. I already logout for a minimum of two hours after any death (that is for my personal reasons as a player) but if this can go as high as three or six hours, you will find me simply not bothering to play at all because this is essentially dictating playtime.

Unless there is a very brisk plan to expand the death area with areas that allow for extended rp (beyond a tavern I can't think of anything) then this will only attack the players and what it says is, if you get into any conflict with your character then you will be punished as a player.


I give you sad face because that is all I have right now : (

EDIT: Having discussed this for a bit, the only other thing that has come up is that maybe the death area gets a new tradepost-like spot and death penalties start to count down as soon as you enter the Fugue then players have the option of leaving after the regular 3-5 mins and get hit with the penalties on the Prime as expected or stay and rp in the Fugue which earns them some discount on those penalties each tick the longer they stay.

-S

[Iceborn]

Allow me to say something very clearly:
Greater mechanical penalties make not death relevant, it makes it annoying.
Roleplay, and only the narrative through roleplay makes death relevant.

Even with that said, I am not strictly against mechanical penalties.
I embrace them where they are fun to play, and where they are warranted.
If somebody goes through the effort to deliberately hurt my character beyond the mechanics, I will gladly play the damage. It's fun to play the damage. The 20 minutes sitting in the Fugue are not fun. Dragging your character around with all the stats in negative is rarely fun.

There are many ways to make death relevant, or offer still the prospect of roleplay. There are many possibilities of things we can do with the setting to justify death, maybe as the one just-above mentioned.

[Quoth]

My major question is since I doubt this will stop the "Hey someone killed me go kill them back" nonsense that in my opinion should of been curb stomped on day one of the server by the DM team for the total immersion and IC breaking action it is. is as such.

Since the penalties for losing is now greater is the punishment for those breaching rules and griefing during pvp also greater? Yes after a long period of time and many upset players someone can get banned however it now effects everyone a lot more. So to compensate they should be punished more no?

[Stath]

Tfw cant be summoned from the fugue as a phantom to kill someone and take their life force

[DaddysLE]

hefty penalty on death for the character, not the player

. I'm with you on this entirely, Shy Limiting a player to social rp only for hours at a time after a mandatory 20 minutes in a bland area is not a consequence to the character, it's punishing the player and allowing one player to control another's playtime with a single, non-interactive choice: To bash or not to bash.

Shy also makes an excellent point about election season, and it's a point that also applies to any time there is an active war between settlements. These are times where players are often killed multiple times per week, whether it be intentionally or otherwise. In the last few open wars I've seen, there was already a huge problem with holing up and turtling rather than engaging in a significant amount of narrative progressing interaction. I have seen Cordor, Wharftown, and Guldorand all completely devoid of activity during wars from this fear, often all at once.

Personal experience also tells me that this system is a risk for damaging factions such as the guard. I can't tell you how many times I've been in the guard for week long griefer group attacks that end up with people huddling in a house or the Barracks because they're tired of people killing them, bashing them, and being forced to respawn at least once. I don't see this getting any better with the knowledge that every time you die, you're gimped for even longer than before. And I'm sorry, considering I've seen these groups continue the same behavior for multiple weeks (or in some cases months) at various points in Arelith history, relying on the DM team to protect from abuse isn't really much of an option.

Finally, the death area is not an enjoyable place to be from a player perspective. It is bland, featureless, and you do not receive any tick XP. The maze was really neat the first few times, and running into the Wall was entertaining the first time. Now with this update, we're stuck there for 20 minutes if forced to respawn. That's a significant chunk of time for someone who only gets 2-3 hours to play on a given day. And really, how long do you think novelty of exploring the maze is going to last?

[Manabi]

Tfw cant be summoned from the fugue as a phantom to kill someone and take their life force

This and only this.

[CragOrion]

I don't know if the new system will be better or not, but I'm willing to give it a chance and simply adapt to the longer sickness (i have plenty of other characters to play while the sickness goes down).

However, the idea to give an xp penalty or some kind of consequence to winning pvp is very interesting. Not one I'd ever thought of in a million years, but I'd be very to curious to see if it had any effect on the prevalence of the winwinwin attitude and pridegaming

[viper92225]

A stacking death penalty for any death would make 'death' more serious, but would have no impact on making PVP meaningful. If you want the PVP to be meaningful then you are going to need to find another solution (I don't have one at hand) that makes it meaningful for both sides.

If you slap some mechanical penalties on the losers, say "sucks to be you, and if it happens again too soon it will suck more to be you" and call it a day, you have set conditions where only those that either have multiple characters to swap between or know they have a really good chance at not only winning, but doing it without being a casualty on the winning side are going to push conflict.

Have the misfortune to have built an RP build with a large hole that makes it easy for players to kill you? I really hope you are involved in handing out hugs and feeding hungry children, because if your RP involves defending anyone, standing up for anyone, attacking anyone, you are in for a bad time.

Got killed and now they are offering you capture RP? Better only accept that if you know they are definitely going to let you go without killing you even though you were worth killing once already. Wouldn't want to add another potentially 2 real life hours to your stat drain for respawn and another day to your pvp counter.

Death should be avoided more then it currently is, characters should care about staying alive instead of just casually respawning, walking into town and reporting their own murder. Making it worse and worse for anyone that has died in PVP is (in my opinion) a really bad way to go about that.

[HindianaJones]

Death penalties don't mean you can't RP? I don't see how it makes a massive problem for people on an RP server.

[Manabi]

There's a stack penalty now? How does that work?

[Quoth]

I've wrote a rant about PvP and why i think the current PvP rules are partly to blame for the state of death on the server and how it's treated by players and DMs. I've since then deleted that rant and typed this instead

Punishing losers more isn't going to change the RP around PvP. Proper management is. That's management of RP around and involving PvP. That's afterwards, beforehand and why PvP happened. The current rule of "RP before hand and be nice" simply don't work well enough at this stage. There is also the mechanics around PvP none of the bugs and exploits in PvP are managed or marked as rule breeches when they really should be. Meaning people can go outside of their character and thus act OOC to win and this is allowed by the rules in place and that's where I'd start to make PvP matter and thus death matter. At the rules governing it. Slapping a greater punishment on the loser won't help if anything it'll make it worse.