Fixture Destruction Update

[A little fellow]

Brog does have alot of fixtures spread out over a massive area, maybe consider leas fixtures into a more manageable territory?

1) The fixtures were never a chore beforehand, people respected them more before this update.

2) There are specific caves strewn all across the Dark Spires (but all on a single map) that are non-hostile lands, perfect and purpose built for Camps like the ones being destroyed regularly to be placed in. (awaiting a dev to tell me these Caves were meant for nothing except for being useless caves)

3) There were never (to my knowledge) any complaints about the amount of fixtures in the Dark Spires before this update. I'm not too sure it's fair to blame us for these problems, considering that this problem didn't exist before the update.

[caldura firebourne]

Brog does have alot of fixtures spread out over a massive area, maybe consider leas fixtures into a more manageable territory?

1) The fixtures were never a chore beforehand, people respected them more before this update.

2) There are specific caves strewn all across the Dark Spires (but all on a single map) that are non-hostile lands, perfect and purpose built for Camps like the ones being destroyed regularly to be placed in. (awaiting a dev to tell me these Caves were meant for nothing except for being useless caves)

3) There were never (to my knowledge) any complaints about the amount of fixtures in the Dark Spires before this update. I'm not too sure it's fair to blame us for these problems, considering that this problem didn't exist before the update.

1.) just because the destroyed fixtures remains weren't visible before, doesn't mean they weren't destroyed, I can tell you with a certainty they were, regularly.

2.) one of those caves I remember playing an Aurite who decided to move in, after a few RL weeks of role-playing removing one fixture a day and getting absolutely no notice I decided it was going too slow as there were still at the end of two weeks 40+ fixtures remaining, IC i took my Aurite to Brog in the hopes of creating some RP that would allow these to be moved faster, allowing Brog to take them back and redistribute them, the response was *paraphrased* "ebil Aurite, go way" and the cave in question was crammed full of fixtures nobody was using again. to top it off, my character then had to take the blame for everything that went missing/was vandalized/destroyed everywhere up the mountain from Brog, even though my character had never once destroyed a single fixture, this heavy handed approach to dealing with criminal RP kind of makes me understand why whoever is doing this is RP'ing with you via the destroyed fixtures instead of in person


3.) Brog claims with border markers consisting of 3 fixtures each, every entrance into the spires up to the area just before the opening of the aurite temple, with intermittent camps and redundant message boards that were maybe used by three people at the most for patrol reports that never actually made it to Brog. the problem was brought up IC more than a few times by myself personally through my characters, and was very offhandedly dismissed, looking for an honest answer here, how would you deal IC with a complaint of too many dwarf fixtures if it didn't come from a dwarf, because most likely it won't.

maybe in this instance you might see some RP from the vandals if you RP'd a loss of territory due to not enough time/resources to continue the upkeep of the camps that are rarely RP'd in except when patrolling them. validate this person's RP before deciding they're just a griefer

[Dunshine]

Just pulled some data from the logs. And it doesn't show any major increase in fixture desctruction post-update. Not saying this is not the case in the example posted by a little fellow, but in general, the numbers say otherwise (I've removed most of the DM destroyed fixtures to not clutter the numbers).

Cities & Planes:

Jan - 149
Feb - 215
Mar - 269 (25 of which post-remains-update)
Apr - 147

Surface:

Jan - 110
Feb - 130
Mar - 155 (10 of which post-remains-update)
Apr - 157

Sure April isn't finished yet, but even with 1/4 added to Aprils numbers, I don't see a strong relation between the update and qty of fixtures destroyed.

In many cases it probably wasn't as obvious as it is now with the remains left behind, and therefor the perception is that there are more destroyed (again, not saying that's the case for the above particular example)

That said, when I have time I might do some additions to the system, some ideas here (just ideas, not sure which ones I might actually do yet):
- NPCs with the defender faction, or flagged as guards might attack people destroying fixtures in their line of sight.
- Repetitive fixture destroying PCs might get a bad reputation, maybe town criers will shout about them destroying things.
- Lightning destroying fixtures might be removed altogether, or tweaked in some way.
- Maybe add a chance that a group of NPC guards will spawn when someone is bashing a fixture. Increased chance if the fixture was bashed recently already.
- Maybe someone who does regular repairs gets more proficient in it and needs less craft points.

Feel free to post ideas, I'll keep an eye on this thread and see what I'll do with it.

[Lorkas]

- Maybe add a chance that a group of NPC guards will spawn when someone is bashing a fixture. Increased chance if the fixture was bashed recently already.

Maybe also an increased chance if another fixture was recently bashed in the area.

[caldura firebourne]

I like it.

[Arithel 98]

Conceptually I think it's a great idea. Reality of what will happen is people walking around bashing fixtures to generate spawns and try and grab xp. Not sure if it's possible but maybe for the npc guarded fixtures, have the npc guards capture the offenders and transport to a temporary jail area for each settlement and after 6 ig hour or something like that they're released. Maybe if caught they're affected with ability defects similar to death for 2 ig hours or something?

[CragOrion]

I agree it would help to lower the amount of points required to repair a fixture

I also really liked the idea of allowing epic diviners to discover who destroyed them, as well as the idea to have npc's go hostile when they spot bashing.

EDIT: IMO, repairing should only take 1/2 the points it took to craft the item

[Voidhawk]

Brog does have alot of fixtures spread out over a massive area, maybe consider leas fixtures into a more manageable territory?

1) The fixtures were never a chore beforehand, people respected them more before this update.

2) There are specific caves strewn all across the Dark Spires (but all on a single map) that are non-hostile lands, perfect and purpose built for Camps like the ones being destroyed regularly to be placed in. (awaiting a dev to tell me these Caves were meant for nothing except for being useless caves)

3) There were never (to my knowledge) any complaints about the amount of fixtures in the Dark Spires before this update. I'm not too sure it's fair to blame us for these problems, considering that this problem didn't exist before the update.

1.) just because the destroyed fixtures remains weren't visible before, doesn't mean they weren't destroyed, I can tell you with a certainty they were, regularly.

2.) one of those caves I remember playing an Aurite who decided to move in, after a few RL weeks of role-playing removing one fixture a day and getting absolutely no notice I decided it was going too slow as there were still at the end of two weeks 40+ fixtures remaining, IC i took my Aurite to Brog in the hopes of creating some RP that would allow these to be moved faster, allowing Brog to take them back and redistribute them, the response was *paraphrased* "ebil Aurite, go way" and the cave in question was crammed full of fixtures nobody was using again. to top it off, my character then had to take the blame for everything that went missing/was vandalized/destroyed everywhere up the mountain from Brog, even though my character had never once destroyed a single fixture, this heavy handed approach to dealing with criminal RP kind of makes me understand why whoever is doing this is RP'ing with you via the destroyed fixtures instead of in person


3.) Brog claims with border markers consisting of 3 fixtures each, every entrance into the spires up to the area just before the opening of the aurite temple, with intermittent camps and redundant message boards that were maybe used by three people at the most for patrol reports that never actually made it to Brog. the problem was brought up IC more than a few times by myself personally through my characters, and was very offhandedly dismissed, looking for an honest answer here, how would you deal IC with a complaint of too many dwarf fixtures if it didn't come from a dwarf, because most likely it won't.

maybe in this instance you might see some RP from the vandals if you RP'd a loss of territory due to not enough time/resources to continue the upkeep of the camps that are rarely RP'd in except when patrolling them. validate this person's RP before deciding they're just a griefer

This post is very high handed and is just pointing fingers saying the dorfs are doing it wrong, I guess cause someones antagonist story didn't go as they planned it. No plan survives contact with the enemy. Don't tell people how to rp, slippery slide.

Kudos to the dorfs for making the best fixtures on the server. I love the tables you guys make. Epic stuff. So nice to see real thought out fixtures that aren't full of God emotes or have no description.

More dorf fixtures.

[A little fellow]

This post is very high handed and is just pointing fingers saying the dorfs are doing it wrong, I guess cause someones antagonist story didn't go as they planned it. No plan survives contact with the enemy. Don't tell people how to rp, slippery slide.

Kudos to the dorfs for making the best fixtures on the server. I love the tables you guys make. Epic stuff. So nice to see real thought out fixtures that aren't full of God emotes or have no description.

More dorf fixtures.

I can confirm it was a situation where the player, claiming to represent the NPC Aurilites (to which I raised no argument) gave the Dwarves an ultimatum which read pretty much like "You'll have to kill me if you dont want this camp removed, because my evil Sisters said so" (Quick note: If you want to RP the destruction of fixtures and the like, I'd hold this up as an example of how to do it right!). I had no complaints personally about the character, the player or the RP. I thought I was very welcoming to the idea of this characters situation, but that doesn't mean a Dwarf of Brog will just say "Oh so yer Frost-Buddies wish our lands, very well, there ye go, ye've earned it".

I'll say further on that front, it's not me that has claimed the Dark Spires for Brogendenstein, believe me I understand how much easier this would all be if they weren't considered Brog lands .. but for IC reasons I'm not going to be the one to say "Aye, this mountain doesnae belong tae us, contrary tae what the Kin o' Brogendenstein past believe".

My only complaint was that our time zones were vastly different and we struggled to get on at the same time until eventually the PC logged and never came back. I'm sorry you thought what I did wasn't inclusive, I hope that most people would agree I do try to include people in whatever Brog has going on .. and I'd have preferred you bring a personal problem to me.


I'll also say, to this point.

"1.) just because the destroyed fixtures remains weren't visible before, doesn't mean they weren't destroyed, I can tell you with a certainty they were, regularly."

I never said I was certain no fixtures had been destroyed, I said the odd few would go missing every now and then, but nothing to the level it was. I hope you'd at least trust me in that, I've spent longer than I care to admit walking those slopes.

[Miaou]

Just a side note. The best interactive roleplay that involves fixtures was when someone took the time to vandalize it. Not just bash it, but take it and edit the description some. I've seen someone leave a bloodied fox or something on an altar and push around the little memorials to represent the desecration. Hey, maybe you decided to cut up that light post instead of just bashing it. Maybe you took a stone to those chiseled words. Maybe you just took the fixtures and threw them around a little bit.

There is a lot of creative ways to do "destructive" roleplay involving fixtures. We are designed to be interacting with each other. I'd love people put a bit more work into making those border markers look vandalized, but respectfully and able to lead to further interaction. Anything fixture or setting.

Just a suggestion for those who like to play the other side. It can be fun to come up with creative ways to "mess" things up.

[caldura firebourne]

This post is very high handed and is just pointing fingers saying the dorfs are doing it wrong, I guess cause someones antagonist story didn't go as they planned it. No plan survives contact with the enemy. Don't tell people how to rp, slippery slide.

Kudos to the dorfs for making the best fixtures on the server. I love the tables you guys make. Epic stuff. So nice to see real thought out fixtures that aren't full of God emotes or have no description.

More dorf fixtures.

I'm not entirely sure where you read I was saying anyone was rp'ing wrong, I meant to offer another viewpoint albeit not a popular one, nobody wants to roleplay losing ground, but sometimes doing so opens up new avenues

I put in my own personal experience for a couple of reasons, one being a little fellow claiming nobody brought up issues with too many fixtures before, which is not true, and the other as a means to see how the other side of this vandalism "might" see the situation.

[A little fellow]

This post is very high handed and is just pointing fingers saying the dorfs are doing it wrong, I guess cause someones antagonist story didn't go as they planned it. No plan survives contact with the enemy. Don't tell people how to rp, slippery slide.

Kudos to the dorfs for making the best fixtures on the server. I love the tables you guys make. Epic stuff. So nice to see real thought out fixtures that aren't full of God emotes or have no description.

More dorf fixtures.

I'm not entirely sure where you read I was saying anyone was rp'ing wrong, I meant to offer another viewpoint albeit not a popular one, nobody wants to roleplay losing ground, but sometimes doing so opens up new avenues

I put in my own personal experience for a couple of reasons, one being a little fellow claiming nobody brought up issues with too many fixtures before, which is not true, and the other as a means to see how the other side of this vandalism "might" see the situation.

Firstly, I didn't not want this thread to come down to this, it's a crappy way for a conversation to go.

But nobody brought up any issues with too many fixtures in the Dark Spires before the update, that is correct. And I'll make no apology for saying this, if your RP was centred around removing the number of fixtures from Brog, why didn't you /say/ that?

Your example waa an IG matter of one character who said "you see this place? It's my place now and you'll have to kill me for it.". It would only really serve as a complaint (though a secret complaint, which was not actually voiced to me ever, but can apparently work as a just argument against something I said) about the amount of fixtures in Brog if you made that aurilite with that RP specifically to cut down on the amount of fixtures people of Brog had spent time placing.

That matter is put to bed, I'd like to get back to moaning about the fixture update, please.

[caldura firebourne]

Alright, I'll bring it up now, brogendenstein has too many fixtures spread out over an area far too massive to actively use them all, most of it is unused and cluttering space other characters could use, brining it up IC is ineffective, so on an OOC level I'll leave you with this,

You might not have been the one to expand brog's territory so far, but you currently play the one character who could feasibly make the call to cull back some of these fixtures that are barely getting used, there's no mechanical reason for you to do this, but not doing so not only crowds out other players, but also leaves you with the task of patrolling these areas and repairing the fixtures while trying to figure out who's destroying them

If you find that a fun way to spend your time on arelith, by all means continue, but complaining on the forums about how brog's excessive fixtures aren't being respected is likely not to change anything

I understand Ghestaldt is hard headed and unwilling to give anyone else a foot in the spires without his say-so but on an OOC level you need to understand this server is for everyone, and sometimes that means sharing the sandbox a little bit

[Dunshine]

Just a side note. The best interactive roleplay that involves fixtures was when someone took the time to vandalize it. Not just bash it, but take it and edit the description some. I've seen someone leave a bloodied fox or something on an altar and push around the little memorials to represent the desecration. Hey, maybe you decided to cut up that light post instead of just bashing it. Maybe you took a stone to those chiseled words. Maybe you just took the fixtures and threw them around a little bit.

There is a lot of creative ways to do "destructive" roleplay involving fixtures. We are designed to be interacting with each other. I'd love people put a bit more work into making those border markers look vandalized, but respectfully and able to lead to further interaction. Anything fixture or setting.

Just a suggestion for those who like to play the other side. It can be fun to come up with creative ways to "mess" things up.

I was thinking something similar last night, it would be a nice addition to this system, if we've put an option for the basher to change the description of the remains left behind. Some people might want to leave their own clues in it, others might give a very specific description of what was done to the fixture. Stuff like that. (the original description will ofcourse still be restored upon repair)

[A little fellow]

Alright, I'll bring it up now, brogendenstein has too many fixtures spread out over an area far too massive to actively use them all, most of it is unused and cluttering space other characters could use, brining it up IC is ineffective, so on an OOC level I'll leave you with this,

You might not have been the one to expand brog's territory so far, but you currently play the one character who could feasibly make the call to cull back some of these fixtures that are barely getting used, there's no mechanical reason for you to do this, but not doing so not only crowds out other players, but also leaves you with the task of patrolling these areas and repairing the fixtures while trying to figure out who's destroying them

You can say that going about it IC is ineffective all you'd like, you tried to go about it IC, we played along, but you were the representative of an evil deity. I doubt it'd be fair to judge the whole of Brog on that specific situation and we don't need to answer for those who came before us ... And like I said, I was ready for the RP to continue but you stopped playing that character. Sorry you had a bad experience, but there was an open mind on our side of the deal.

I also agree that the spires doesn't get used enough, I actually tried to sort out the problem without taking away part of Brog history in the process. The Patrol boards dotted around the Camps are new additions, and the books that were wrote to accompany them have yet to be distributed to Kulds and Pathfinders, so they aren't crammed full of reports just yet.





The books are helpful yet vague, and don't reveal too much, but will aid people new to the mountains in exploring. It might work, might not, time shall tell, but that's no reason to not attempt something new, and I'm sure the devs would be perfectly happy that we use the space available to us.

[dirza]

That looks like a huge chunk of work done, a little Fellow.

[A little fellow]

That looks like a huge chunk of work done, a little Fellow.

I've had a lot of help from fellow Samman. But it might also help indicate why we have so much invested in how often fixtures are destroyed.

[dirza]

I know the pain. Once i spent six hours at basin making a llotite column to get it destroyed because someone did not like my name tagged in brackets. I cant make myself since it to invest anything into fixtures anymore, and i admire all those who do regardless these losses.

[Cerk Evermoore]

Sometimes I think it's going to take someone blowing up a graveyard of his enemies with a spell to end this fixture smashing campaign.

Personally I have never smashed a fixture, just seems like a dirty thing to do and if you want to create conflict go find the player, not smash their shit as soon as they go offline on the player list.

[Durvayas]

Just a side note. The best interactive roleplay that involves fixtures was when someone took the time to vandalize it. Not just bash it, but take it and edit the description some. I've seen someone leave a bloodied fox or something on an altar and push around the little memorials to represent the desecration. Hey, maybe you decided to cut up that light post instead of just bashing it. Maybe you took a stone to those chiseled words. Maybe you just took the fixtures and threw them around a little bit.

There is a lot of creative ways to do "destructive" roleplay involving fixtures. We are designed to be interacting with each other. I'd love people put a bit more work into making those border markers look vandalized, but respectfully and able to lead to further interaction. Anything fixture or setting.

These are all valid means of bringing about RP through destroying fixtures. In my opinion, if you've destoyed fixtures but haven't given the owners of said fixtures clues as to who is destroying their stuff or why, you may as well have stopped, not emoted at all, and fireballed it while they are offline. If no meaningful RP can come of it because you left the player nothing to work with, you may as well be griefing, because what youre doing is indistinguishable from it on the receiving side.

Addendum: A note signed with an alias is not a good way to RP with the people whose stuff you break. If they can't ever figure out who their antagonist is, theres no point leaving the note in the fist place.

[Sab1]

A lot also depends on location, using gnolls as an example. They lost a lot of fixtures when they were trying to make stonehold thier camp, yet in the minmir gnolls caves I notice when fixtures are placed there they seem to last a lot longer. if you're trying making a base in contested areas, or for a hated god, or faction you will lose more fixtures. I would expect a surfacer camp in the UD to get bashed quickly just like UDers fixtures appearing on the surface probably won't last long.

[Mr_Rieper]

Holy thread necro batman!

Is there a reason why it costs a flat 25 points to repair any fixture, no matter how easy it was to make? It's a massive investment to replace fixtures that have been callously bashed without a second thought. Even if the materials required have been reduced, 25 points is steep.

[RedGiant]

I'm not sure if this has been suggested...because this thread is hugely long...but how about no material requirements, just a modest to small amount of regular craft-points? I have occasionally engaged in a back and forth fixture war which is quite tedious and favors the bashers. I think a solid pendulum swing toward creators would be nice.

DMs can always still take care of idiocy.

[gilescorey]

Maybe the more times something gets repaired/bashed the easier it is to fix, for a period of time - like 48 hours or something.

[Mr_Rieper]

You already lose the description on items if you don't fix them before a reset.

Restoring fixtures is pointless if some guy has just bashed an entire area's worth of stuff and it'll cost 25 points to repair each fixture. Fixtures that cost 4 crafting points to make still cost 25 to fix, and the description will likely already be gone by the time you get around to it.