Arelith

Rwby wrote:But you did beat the whole dungeon, and survive?

Yes, with two low epic mages who had to rest to recover spells part way through (edit: meaning just in the very last part, after having rested to prep up before we entered), innumerable consumables, several nigh full party wipes, and a lot of flailing about

My point was not that it wasn't possible to do it, more that it is no longer worth the expenditure of time and effort, as well as the actual difficulty in securing passage there in the first place. As it stands, Kohlingen is a do it once 'oh my wasn't that harrowing, let's never go back there again' sort of experience for characters.

Cortex wrote:Why should all dungeons be super difficult for what is meant to be a roleplay server? Being too difficult is more of a problem than being too easy, you can at least gimp yourself if you want a challenge. This punishes everyone, casuals, hardcore players, and the in between.

UD dungeons are full of expfugees from surface, I stopped grinding for a bit on my UDer because everywhere I went there were surfacers. Began to play on my surfacer and dread mages begin to breed like rabbits, aaaaaa.

Again, what might be super difficult for you, maybe super easy for others. Unless the devs make everything super easy for all, it's never going to be balanced.

Sab1 wrote: Again, what might be super difficult for you, maybe super easy for others. Unless the devs make everything super easy for all, it's never going to be balanced.

Dread Mages are only easily handled by stealthers, and that's only if there's only the one mage. Two mages will kill them dead, still, and juggling the pulling other stuff over can be tricky because of how huge a Dread Mage's awareness range is.

Yeah, except multiple people have come in saying it's super difficult? There's a point where the numbers themselves are objective. That's like saying 'Oh sure the malar bandits in the bramble woods might be difficult for you...'

I don't really see how you can argue for a spawn that is commonplace in the Manor of Mourn (A late-epic dungeon, levels 26 and up) to appear in Kohlingen (an area designed for level 16 to 20 for the most part) as a common spawn is anywhere remotely close to fair. If they were bosses and gave boss XP, then I can be sort of for it. As common mobs? That's just soul crushing and the opposite of a challenge.

I sympathise with the need for tweaking dungeon balance and all that, but if that is the intention then it is far better served by modifying the existing spawns stats and tweaking them a little than adding something that is really out of place to it.

I mean all jokes aside here is one question to whoever designed those Dreadmages...

Why do these caster spawns have high AC? And I'm talking high, high AC. I recall fighting them both on my epic level Fighter/Pally and Fighter/WM. You just can't hit those. While Nik was chanting divine might IG, I was chanting to RNGesus IRL.

Call me stupid but one major flaw the majority of caster classes have is the fact that you can HIT them and STAB them to death, but this is not the case with these guys. What's the reasoning behind this? I tremble like a little Snuggy bear every time I see a Giant Mage in the Spires but at least I can hit those bastards.

Update:

Kohlingen is a lot harder, but for more exp. This solves the problem of a lack of level 20+ areas I guess, but just makes the lack of level 15ish areas all the more noticeable and awful. As near as I can determine, you're now meant to spend something like ten levels in FoD/Gnolls/Sibayad deserts, getting 12 exp a head.

Also, it might be a little overtuned - The mages are really, really strong for how frequently they spawn, and I can't see anything that isn't a barbarian or a pale master dealing with the buffed thieves.

12xp a head isn't that bad.

I think a lot of xp woes could be mildly addressed if you got adventure XP every time you kill a boss (25 XP or 50 XP). That eases the burden, I think, on that 'awful' range of 15-early epics.

I do think we need more dungeons though, or an update of ones I already mentioned previously.

Also can we get rid of the rotten tree bug one in Arelith Forest? It's like an insult.

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:12xp a head isn't that bad.

12 a head is pretty freaking bad. My level 15 character gets 12 a head in the jungles, despite having not been there for five levels.

grind jungles all day. 3 bosses in 6 zones? yes please.

I guess it's all about returns.

I just get put off because I don't know what the "standard" is supposed to be - is this an ideal dungeon?

a) moderate difficulty, if well-prepared (if you're window'd and unengaged, expect to a strong likelihood to great pwned?)
b) you should average 20xp for a kill, higher for those "uber" spawns, and maybe around 150xp for a boss kill?
c) 2-3 chests per dungeon
d) gold returns that should be considerably in the "profit" margin
e) thematically interesting, varied, and doesn't require a whole lot of backtracking when completed

Is that what we're looking for?

Seven Sons of Sin wrote: I just get put off because I don't know what the "standard" is supposed to be - is this an ideal dungeon?

a) moderate difficulty, if well-prepared (if you're window'd and unengaged, expect to a strong likelihood to great pwned?)
b) you should average 20xp for a kill, higher for those "uber" spawns, and maybe around 150xp for a boss kill?
c) 2-3 chests per dungeon
d) gold returns that should be considerably in the "profit" margin
e) thematically interesting, varied, and doesn't require a whole lot of backtracking when completed

I'm not sure we'll ever be able to come up with "ideal", but this sounds like at least a step in the right direction, with the following considerations:

A party of 4-6 should be able to make profit, not just solo/duo adventurers.
20-25 XP/kill pre ECL adjustment for a challenging dungeon that requires preparation, or closer to 20ish provided the spawns are large. At one point, the Malar temple fit really nicely in this range. Most stuff if you tackled it at about 14-15 would give 16-25 XP, and the spawns would usually be 5+ creatures. If you went in prepared and were careful, you almost always made it through fine. If you went in unprepared, ran through everything, and played the game badly, you almost certainly either TPKed, or abandoned the idiots to respawn.

I'd also suggest that there are two other kinds of ideal that should be in the mix:

a)Pretty Easy, but not cake; a well-prepared solo, a duo, or a pretty haphazard/unskilled/ poorly built party can take it, and really only run the risk of death if they do stupid junk.
b)12-18ish XP per kill, bosses at about 100 XP.
c) 2-3 chests per dungeon
d) gold returns that should be slightly in the profit margin, or reasonable profit for duo/solo
e) thematically interesting, varied, and doesn't require a whole lot of backtracking when completed

This represents stuff that you can go do if you have to solo, or you've got a faction based party that's missing key roles, or is heavy on really flimsy builds. It should pose enough challenge to be fun and rewarding for those circumstances, while sufficiently underperforming the returns a solid party would get going somewhere more challenging. 12-18 XP isn't great, but it's also not agonizing.

a)Actively challenging. Should require at least two people with excellent builds, or ideally a balanced and solidly built party of 3-4+. Even playing well, there should be some risk that things just don't work out for you, or eliminating that risk requires extensive preparation and/or excellent, not just non-stupid play.
b) 25-30, possibly more XP/kill, bosses at 200. Spawns occasionally run fairly dense.
c) 4+ chests per dungeon
d) gold returns should be pleasingly lucrative even if split 4-6 ways.
e) thematically interesting, varied, and doesn't require a whole lot of backtracking when completed

This represents a dungeon that caters to people who enjoy active risk during their adventuring, and balances it out with an increased reward to compensate for the fact that they could be doing something way easier, but are pushing the limits instead. For reference, this is essentially my ideal dungeon. I enjoy the game the most when I have to play well, using a well thought out build, can never afford to tab out or watch netflix on the side, and am playing with at least one other person who also enjoys that style of play.