Dreadmage Journeyman Misplaced?

[Rooshy41]

Hilariously high AC mages that spam horrid wilting and elemental shield?

The very best thing ever. Don't forget Mordenkainen's Disjunction!

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I was gonna let this go- I had a long, LONG post typed up earlier, and I deleted it.

Then this hit three pages.

@Cortex: Hard to reach epic level dungeon. (Early, even.) So, not really meant for soloing. Greater Spell Breach and dismissal/banishment, I feel, are common staples in every full arcane caster's kit by the time they hit epics, not counting specialty mages that don't have access for some reason. Open up with banish/dismissal, throw a greater spell breach, and then knockdown spam the mage.


Suggesting that the devs don't know what the monster is capable of because of the inability to plan for epic level spell combat is a little needlessly insulting, I feel, especially since unless those mobs all have ungodly SR I could probably solo that spawn group as Astarial and several more of the same group without even changing my spell slots.



Addressing a more overall trend- Can we please stop with the threads asking for epic challenges to be less (epicly) challenging?


From a perspective of immersion, I like the fact and thrill of being caught off guard occasionally. A server where spawns never surprise you or win is boring as hell.

[Cortex]

@Cortex: Hard to reach epic level dungeon. (Early, even.) So, not really meant for soloing. Greater Spell Breach and dismissal/banishment, I feel, are common staples in every full arcane caster's kit by the time they hit epics, not counting specialty mages that don't have access for some reason. Open up with banish/dismissal, throw a greater spell breach, and then knockdown spam the mage.

1. Solo or no, not every party has a caster with those spells (sorcerers are limited, clerics, druids).
2. Have fun being out of spells only after 10 minutes.
3. Have fun still eating Meteor Swarm because by the time you get to do something they're already on your face. (remember they sequencer buff with greater sanctuary and you can't sneak up on them due to max aggro range)
4. It's not a massive epic challenge, they're pirates meant for late teens early epics, nasty pirates but not god tier plunderers of the deep ocean abyss (those are sahuagin).

Suggesting that the devs don't know what the monster is capable of because of the inability to plan for epic level spell combat is a little needlessly insulting, I feel, especially since unless those mobs all have ungodly SR I could probably solo that spawn group as Astarial and several more of the same group without even changing my spell slots.

You don't need to be insulted for them, especially since it wasn't an insult, perhaps leaning on the passive aggression but that was not the intention.

...also Astarial is not a good build (this is also not an insult just an observation), it'd be interesting to watch how he deals with multiple dread mages before burning out of magic, that on top of the pirates themselves who are pretty nasty, able to pierce elemental DR.

Addressing a more overall trend- Can we please stop with the threads asking for epic challenges to be less (epicly) challenging?

No.

[Barradoor]

There is a hard to get to level 15-18 area, from the old UD that has for example, priests with Storm of Vengeance (17 Cleric), Summon Creature IX, Destruction.. Epic dodge and crippling strike (16 Rogue, level 27 minimum)

So if I were killing a level 33 mob, in a level 15-18 area, one would expect it to give me decent experience? No.. It gives me about 18 on a 2 ecl character, meanwhile the other level 15+ area that is highly visited is giving me more resources, more gold, less challenege, and 25+ per mob, which it spawns more of.

Old spawns and new spawns are very, very different.

We've got a well balanced area, the pirates, that require a high ac tank, and some sort of damage that can knock out the higher AB targets before they kill your tank, it's solo-able sure, but it's still dangerous, for the level you should be going at - while not using stupid sequencers that are pretty much designed to make you spend kits.

Biteback shields on mobs are the worst mechanic, you either bring a weave master and wait 16 seconds for the second breach (oh wait, rip Weave master) or you wait it out and get hit by 18 more level 9 spells then they should have in your level range, or you bring a breach wand (average lets say 35 charges / 8000 gold) which is going to cost you 400 gold PER spawn with a biteback shield.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

1. Solo or no, not every party has a caster with those spells (sorcerers are limited, clerics, druids).
2. Have fun being out of spells only after 10 minutes.
3. Have fun still eating Meteor Swarm because by the time you get to do something they're already on your face. (remember they sequencer buff with greater sanctuary and you can't sneak up on them due to max aggro range)
4. It's not a massive epic challenge, they're pirates meant for late teens early epics, nasty pirates but not god tier plunderers of the deep ocean abyss (those are sahuagin).

1: Druids and clerics should be able to heal you through the damage shields or ward you for them. They can also give you SR vs. enemy mages.Sorcerers are limited but in the Arelith meta both named spells are practically mandatory (a high enough sorc might drop GSB for MD, instead).
2: *Shrug* Sometimes that's the case, sometimes it isn't. That's usually when my elf chirps up with "I need to stop and prepare spells!"
3: Mordenkainen's Sword is immune to all magic, and is a transmutation that can be cast after you banish. I wouldn't be on the same screen as the mage, I'd have my MS targeting the dread mage and I'd probably chuck some will disables at the pirates (I carry a lot of them despite the general sentiment that they're bad).
4: Maybe one of those god tier nasties is keeping the sub-god-tier nasties in line and visits every once in a while!

You don't need to be insulted for them, especially since it wasn't an insult, perhaps leaning on the passive aggression but that was not the intention.

Fair enough- I'm not so much soap-boxing about it as I felt like you may have had a knee-jerk reaction and I'm not too bashful to say something. I apologize for misunderstanding your tone!

...also Astarial is not a good build (this is also not an insult just an observation), it'd be interesting to watch how he deals with multiple dread mages before burning out of magic, that on top of the pirates themselves who are pretty nasty, able to pierce elemental DR.

Absolutely no offense taken. You're 100% right. He's slated to be a pure level 30 wizard if he ever hits it, so his build is sub-optimal by default. What makes him dangerous is the same thing that makes any other prep mage dangerous- tactics and knowledge, and a spellbook that has (almost) everything except conjuration spells!

Multiple dread mages: Simultaneously or one at a time? See #3, above. A GMW cast on the mordenkainen's sword will also render their premonition useless. At that point I really just have to micro-manage the melee mobs, and I can do that with with an expeditious retreat by running them around in circles until the sword is done with the mage. This is assuming I'm trying to be really frugal with my spells and I don't just dominate one and then help it fry the rest.

Addressing a more overall trend- Can we please stop with the threads asking for epic challenges to be less (epicly) challenging?

No.

Y u do dis?

[Cortex]

1.Heal through the shields, the pirates, BBoD, meteor swarm...
2. Stop to prepare spells every 1-3 spawns.
3. The sword would be devoured by pirates/damage shield.

Really, you should fight them and record results for us, on a level appropriate character. Though multiple mages would give anyone trouble.

edit: A reminder that at the end of the day, these mages are only found in one other mega late epic dungeon, while this is, again, a late teen/early epic dungeon.

[Sab1]

As for changes, then push for changes ig. Give the devs a reason to pay attention.

I don't think player-characters should be motivated by out-of-character balance concerns.

Out of balance? I was simply pointing out there are ig ways one can justify an area change. For me it makes more sense then suddenly, ohh the land has changed. There are rp ways to try and start things such as the golem factory being changed, etc...

[Rooshy41]

Aelryn Bloodmoon said:
1: Druids and clerics should be able to heal you through the damage shields or ward you for them.

Cortex said:
1.Heal through the shields, the pirates, BBoD, meteor swarm...


I have to agree with Cortex on this one, as an epic level druid right now, heal requires you to be in touch range and only heals 200, where as a hasted mage can drop 4 meteor swarms or horrid wiltings in two rounds. Dealing probably as much as two heal spells, and leaving the said druid/cleric dead.

[PainIsJoy]

Druids and clerics should be able to heal you through the damage shields

Now the druid and cleric are dead to the AoE that does just as much damage as their heal did to the single target they used it on.

I'm not sure why you're defending this so vividly, these monsters are not the right CL for the area they're in.

Also, nobody I've ever known, even at max level unless it was an absolute necessity has gone, "Heal me while I swing my sword into this 40-60 damage acid sheathe and take 160-240 damage a round", and it's certainly not a viable tactic to do for every group of monsters you encounter.

Swinging into damage reflection, afaik, is only even viable (and still risky) as a weapon master who can potentially out damage it.

[Mango Reinhardt]

Well, just adding my own recent experience here. Hit the pirate cove while tooling around recently in the Rose, and when we stepped off the boat, we were immediately greeted by the sight of no less than six of the mages across three groups, all of whom immediately hit their sequencer buffs and sanced out. Luckily, combat hadn't kicked in yet... so it was right back on the ship. But yeah... there would have been /no/ winning that... regardless of group combo or tactics.

[Aodh Lazuli]

just seemed like everything was about having a place to gain xp, but maybe i just read too much into things

Funnily enough, when reading a thread about places where you gain XP (this one detailing a situation where a random difficulty spike stemmed from a single mob type), one might find discussion about gaining XP.

Gosh.

[Daedin]

Random thought,since this seems to have happened a bit suddenly:

Has anyone checked the -balance of the area? If not, it might be worth it to drag a ranger over who can tell,ig, wether these mages are an intrusion or not.

[yellowcateyes]

It's almost certainly not a -balance issue. The usual spawns in the cove were not displaced by another area's spawns. Instead, an out-of-place mob was mixed in with the pirates.

Given the generous amounts of XP and gold on offer in UD dungeons offering little challenge (Myconids come readily to mind, among many others), it seems odd that surface dungeons are the ones being targeted for difficulty bumps.

It'd be one thing if a dungeon was out of line in comparison to the others and had to be tweaked to fall in line with server-wide standards. It's another thing entirely when there's a glaring and widely-acknowledged disparity between two regions, and continuing adjustments only worsen that disparity.

[Rooshy41]

Random thought,since this seems to have happened a bit suddenly:

Has anyone checked the -balance of the area? If not, it might be worth it to drag a ranger over who can tell,ig, wether these mages are an intrusion or not.

Just a minor correction, only druids can do that I believe.

[Daedin]

Random thought,since this seems to have happened a bit suddenly:

Has anyone checked the -balance of the area? If not, it might be worth it to drag a ranger over who can tell,ig, wether these mages are an intrusion or not.

Just a minor correction, only druids can do that I believe.

Nope.

Rangers can check the balance of an area as well.

Druids can rebalance an area that is disturbed, which rangers cant do.

And to yellowcateyes:

That is what makes me think about the balance. If you look at the crags, the talassians will often mix with the ogres and giants, not just replace them.

[Lorkas]

Can druids check the balance of an area? I thought that only rangers (well, anyone with -track maybe? I don't know if the subraces with -track or harper scouts can see the balance when they use -track) could check the balance of an area, and only druids could repair it. That way druids and rangers have to work together to identify and fix areas that are out of balance.

[yellowcateyes]

That is what makes me think about the balance. If you look at the crags, the talassians will often mix with the ogres and giants, not just replace them.

It's been a while since I rolled the one character I had who can directly check -track, but I'm pretty sure this isn't the case here. The islands you can reach by ship are disassociated with the population mechanics on the main Arelith island. There is no population spread on, for example, the islets with greater harpies or Blackfin Rock.

Also, not long after the initial 'Dread Mage Journeymen' were reported in this thread, the mobs have since been replaced with 'Dread Mage Initiates.' That reads as a purposeful tweak rather than population scripts at work.

[Daedin]

That is what makes me think about the balance. If you look at the crags, the talassians will often mix with the ogres and giants, not just replace them.

It's been a while since I rolled the one character I had who can directly check -track, but I'm pretty sure this isn't the case here. The islands you can reach by ship are disassociated with the population mechanics on the main Arelith island. There is no population spread on, for example, the islets with greater harpies or Blackfin Rock.

Also, not long after the initial 'Dread Mage Journeymen' were reported in this thread, the mobs have since been replaced with 'Dread Mage Initiates.' That reads as a purposeful tweak rather than population scripts at work.

Makes sense!


Also, yeah Lorkas, I think that is how it works.

[Rooshy41]

Well on in the case of checking to make sure that populations are out of line, I can work on that IG.

[RedGiant]

What I think would really help this thread is the obvious solution: a BBoD minigame! You are incredulous? Well, imagine the dread mage initiate summons its woeful BBoD. Then YOU summon your woeful BBoD! They clash in an epic BBoD minigame! The swords lock. Sparks fly. Then you have to press "B" a lot faster than your computerized opponent to win!

You are welcome.

[Tranquility]

If you think the change of dread journeymen mages at the coves is tough, just wait till you see the new mages at Kohlingen. Oh boy, place is scary now.

Another surface dungeon that was worth it bites the dust.

*joins the exodus to the UD, where there is xp and not master dread mages everywhere*

[Cortex]

If you think the change of dread journeymen mages at the coves is tough, just wait till you see the new mages at Kohlingen. Oh boy, place is scary now.

Another surface dungeon that was worth it bites the dust.

NOoOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooo

[Hunter548]

So

Why exactly is there an epic level boss in an area that was A) Already fairly tough B) Already had mage spawns C) Is a level ~15 area?

[Iceborn]

We went through Kohlingen today:
We found, crossing the whole top dungeon, 15 mobs. Tops.
In the underside there were a few more.
In both areas we found dread mages.

It's not the dungeons. Something is broken with the spawning system. Everything is starting to look as depressing as the Orclands.

[Miaou]

Leveling at mid to late teens on the surface is the worst thing in the world currently. You need a boat to access most of the better dungeons, and Sibiyad is swarming with underdarkers constantly for some reason for it to be worth going there.

Can druids check the balance of an area? I thought that only rangers (well, anyone with -track maybe? I don't know if the subraces with -track or harper scouts can see the balance when they use -track) could check the balance of an area, and only druids could repair it. That way druids and rangers have to work together to identify and fix areas that are out of balance.

Druids have a once per day ability, -balance, which allows them to help magically push that area into balance. You can check the balance of an area that way as a message will come up with "You have helped the balance here a little" or "This place is already in balance!", but it's once per day so you can not constantly check every map you walk into, or get information from the -track ability.

Still of the opinion that druids should be able to read the tracks at transition, but that's just me.