Recent enchantment changes

[Peppermint]

Let's math out the impact of removing heal from gear for a standard weapon master. We'll compare no heal gear at all to a standard setup under the old model, and assume that the weapon master has 8 wisdom and full ranks in heal. We'll calculate twice, the first time using +1 heal kits (i.e. arguably the standard), the second time using +10 heal kits (i.e. the maximum).

For the heal gear model, we'll assume the weapon master enchanted amulet, belt, cloak, gloves, and rings for a total of +12 heal from gear. He doesn't enchant his weapon, shield, or helmet because he's using masterly damask/adamantine. He doesn't enchant his boots because he's running +1 AC, +1 Strength, +1 Constitution, +2 Discipline.

+1 Heal Kits
Heal Gear
Base Ranks: 33
Wisdom Modifier: -1
Kit Modifier: +1
Equipment Modifier: +12
Average Roll: 10.5
Average Healing Per Kit: 56.5
Average Healing Per Round: 113

No Heal Gear
Base Ranks: 33
Wisdom Modifier: -1
Kit Modifier: +1
Equipment Modifier: 0
Average Roll: 10.5
Average Healing Per Kit: 44.5
Average Healing Per Round: 89

In this scenario, the weapon master drops from 113 healing a round to 89 a round with no heal gear. This is a difference of 24 points per round or approximately a 21% reduction in healing.

+10 Heal Kits
Heal Gear
Base Ranks: 33
Wisdom Modifier: -1
Kit Modifier: +10
Equipment Modifier: +12
Average Roll: 10.5
Average Healing Per Kit: 65.5
Average Healing Per Round: 131

No Heal Gear
Base Ranks: 33
Wisdom Modifier: -1
Kit Modifier: +10
Equipment Modifier: 0
Average Roll: 10.5
Average Healing Per Kit: 53.5
Average Healing Per Round: 107

In this second scenario, the weapon master drops from 131 healing a round to 107 a round with no heal gear. This is a difference of 24 points per round or approximately a 18% reduction in healing.

Analysis: assuming no heal gear, the weapon master loses about 24 points of healing per round (i.e. 12 per kit). The potency of the kit has a minor impact on the percentage difference; assuming +1 kits, the weapon master sees approximately a 21% reduction in healing. Assuming +10 kits, the weapon master instead sees a 18% reduction in healing -- a 3% difference between each case. Note that both cases assume a 30th level character. At lower levels, the percentage impact will be greater.

[Lorkas]

I think the early levels are what most people are frustrated by. Probably some low level stuff could be added to the loot matrix to compensate, add long as something about the item is less appealing to high level characters somehow so as not to change the level 30 situation.

[Tarkus the dog]

I think the early levels are what most people are frustrated by. Probably some low level stuff could be added to the loot matrix to compensate, add long as something about the item is less appealing to high level characters somehow so as not to change the level 30 situation.

Basically this.

I did not have heal on my level 30 weapon master before these changes and I... well, clearly won't have it after them. No longer it is possible for level 3's to slot heal and make early leveling up much easier, whether this was frowned upon or not that is an entire new topic but there it is. Not to mention that you can safely ignore heal as a skill on some wisdom classes ( cleric and druid ) where once you get the Regenerate (spell) you need not use another healing kit for the rest of your leveling up to 30.

So that's the problem, it seems as if level 30's were targeted but low levels were shot down. How often does Arelith attempt to fix something that didn't need to be fixed in the first place and another thing became broken? Some low level items used mostly by pre-teen characters would be a pleasant sight like Lorkas said.

[miesny_jez]

Hmm.. I would say that there is now very little point in going to see an enchanter if they are not at least 15+. As Action Replay pointed out, there are now a literal slew of +1 stat and a sprinkling of skills pieces of gear being sold for less money than it costs an enchanter to put even just the +1 stat on it. The only point of enchanting now seems to be its very small chance to create gear that very slightly exceeds what can be generated via procedural loot. And since the process of purchasing said gear is now often relegated to a few clicks at a shop, we see a loss of interactive RP centered around the economy. Many an enchanter character I've had made a large portion of their early contacts and friends through the process of providing early tier gear.

Edit: Also, by the time one is looking to enchanters to improve their gear over procedural items, the gear is so difficult to make that it is unlikely any but a very high epic enchanter, likely a level 30, would be willing to make the attempt.

I think Mango provided here a very good feedback which should be highlighted and bolded.

I am seeing similar things like now as well.. yesterday strolled through shops in Andunor and there was a temporary shop filled with randomly generated items which were on the level of +1 stat +2/+2 skill .. sold for 500 - 1200 gold coins.

There is absolutely no way that my character would be able to produce items like that through enchantment for the same cost when simple +1 stat costs around 800 g on a base item.

Another thing is.. why anyone would want to seek a low level GSF/SF enchanter nowadays? If someone with ESF enchant and 6 levels more then the lvl 15 GSF character can do everything better?

I don't understand why does this limitation of 15 levels even come from and what is its purpose? Wouldn't it be better to allow just SF:Ench for +1 skills and GSF:Ench for +2 skills with no lvl limitations?

With the procedural items being on-par or BETTER then what an enchanter can produce.. I would vote for a very heavy price reduction for enchanting AND removal of xp cost.

Perhaps a compromise could be the ability of Epic Spell Focus Enchanting to "strip" a single ability or skill away from an item. Then the EPIC Enchanters have a business to themselves of modifying some of this non-optimal magical gear, and also allow items purchased that are not -precisely- what your character wants/needs to be adjusted by the skill of the Epic Enchanter.

This sounds to me like a very good idea..

I also seen a number of items with use-spells on them being generated by the loot system now.

Could we expand this to enchanting as well? Giving such perks instead:

SF:Enchanting - +1 Skills and Abilities (Gold cost only)
GSF: Enchanting:
- +2 Skills (Gold cost only)
- lvl 10+ = ability to remove unwanted minor enchantments OR replace them with something desirable (gold cost only)
- Ability to produce 'cursed' effects, effects with negative modifiers (like -1 ST for example)
ESF: Enchanting - All previous and:
- Ability to replace any Major enchant with something desirable (gold cost only)
- Ability to enchant ON-USE spells (gold+xp cost)
- 5% rolls (heavier gold + xp cost) Ability to add ON-HIT effects to weapons/Sequencer effects to
armor
- Ability to upgrade the power of existing enchant (+2 ability max, +4 skill max, 10% immune, +2 saves) - Heavy Gold minor xp cost

[miesny_jez]

As "Replace" I mean - 100% chance of successful replacement

[Dean]

I'm still trying to understand why the changes were made. I understand the ramifications, but unlike the appraise skill removal I don't see why they removed heal.

Could someone explain to me why?

[Liareth]

I'm still trying to understand why the changes were made. I understand the ramifications, but unlike the appraise skill removal I don't see why they removed heal.

Could someone explain to me why?

I would if I could, but I don't think any of us know -- we need an admin!

[Iceborn]

Actually I'm curious as well.
Power enchanting items with heal at lower levels had a very strong effect, that I can understand, but why limit all this to enchanters, and limit Greater Enchanting Focus + 15 levels for the second skill tier? What are the actual consequences that the team was hoping to address by adding these limitations?

This one and the removal of Greensteel armors... intrigue me. They don't affect me, but I don't see why they had to be done.

[Quoth]

Wait greensteel armors got removed? I really need to read those updates a lot more.

Also would argue that heal would also go on the boots since you'd put the same enchantment on the amulet as you would boots. both grant different forms of ac, so the net gain is 14 but that's still only an extra 4 around added on to 24, so 28 which is actually a basic hit from another melee fighter. So they would heal a full attack back extra. now the heal drop off isn't as evident outside of combat but considering combat makes it a d20 rather than a flat 20 the fact your minimum heal roll is greater is significant.

But yes like others my only question is why, it makes no sense for it to be removed.

[Cortex]

Greensteel was nerfed, but to the point it might as well have been removed.

Wearing a set of gsteel now will still give 10% ASF, but having auto still I negates that, though at that point you might as well go full meme and go all the way to III.

[Iceborn]

Ah, it's still there?
So I stand corrected.
I -still- don't see why it had to be done, considering that Auto Still requires a lot of investment and armor-mages are not that common, and bards are particularly pinched.
But all that probably had its own discussion thread, somewhere.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I'm just banking we're going to make crafting and enchantment not terrible.

My only concern, which I don't think is tangential, is "power creep"-

Maybe I'm alone here, but I've never had a character with gear that had +1/+1 stats w/ 4 +1 skills (or the elite gear). One, because I've never had rich characters. And two, I always despised the enchanting system - I couldn't stomach doing it myself, and not all my characters had friends who were epic enchanters.

But, to my understanding, my likelihood of getting this kind of gear has increased exponentially. This gear is now going to be more common - more of an expectation.

Will this undermine ideas of difficulty or balance? How will this impact the economy? Suddenly all my weak, poor characters are a lot more awesome, because whenever they roam about there's always going to be a % chance to get one of these items (whereas previously, it was 0%).

Also, irongorn has stated he wants 'loot' to be one of the 3-prongs of Arelith's economy - the other two being enchanting and crafting.

As of now, it's unclear how they are going to interact. Is crafting going to ONLY include items you can craft, thus not being able to find them anywhere else? Is enchanting the "middle man" between crafting and enchanting?

How much of current 'minor artefacts' are garbage? Is there a need to the inclusion of useless items?

[Mr_Rieper]

Bear in mind, the muling script.

Items can only change hands within the same group so many times.

[RedGiant]

Playing mundane characters is just becoming more and more of a hassle, that's something I'll say.

1,000 HP Barbarians...such a hassle. Same with FighterWeaponMasterRogues!

*throws red meat to Cortex*

[Quoth]

It's not difficult to do over 1000 hp of single target damage within five rounds as a caster. Epic warding and acid sheath strips any damage those two have as well.

[Aodh Lazuli]

What's the fuzz about Heal being removed?

With the cost of heal kits having effectively risen through appraise changes and gold being more scarce, Suddenly every hitpoint lost costs you more gold to heal anyway... Now we remove heal from gear, and we're left with getting damaged in any way becoming financially expensive.

What is this, health insurance legislature?

[One Two Three Five]

It's not difficult to do over 1000 hp of single target damage within five rounds as a caster. Epic warding and acid sheath strips any damage those two have as well.

Epic warding requires level 31.

[Trunx]

It's not difficult to do over 1000 hp of single target damage within five rounds as a caster. Epic warding and acid sheath strips any damage those two have as well.

Epic warding requires level 31.

And Acid Sheath doesn't actually strip any damage.

[vaclavc]

I just logged, and lo behold what I found in literally first two player shops I checked.

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii17 ... Srsly1.jpg
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii17 ... Srsly2.jpg
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii17 ... Srsly3.jpg
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii17 ... Srsly4.jpg

Is this really intentional? New loot system was implemeted few days ago. Most artifacts for sale are crap compared to this, and those items are rather powerful even by measures of epic enchanters.

-V-

[miesny_jez]

In my opinion You are GREATLY overestimating the effect of +Heal skill removal from the possible enchantments.

Peppermint provided the factual numbers on it.. 20% is not that huge considering You would primary use the kits in out of combat situation.

Actually the longer I think about it the more I am getting into the opinion its a good decision. Not only it would promote switching to better quality healing kits (higher levels can easily afford that), but also cull out any kind of cheese of in-combat usage of Healing Kits.

If Your character is "Near Death" after fighting with a single mob or a single group.. that means he should not be there alone and not that he has to carry more healing kits with him/her.

Not long ago we had a really nice (and long) thread about Healing kits as breaking immersion because of usage in combat, from what I gathered on that thread was that a lot of people were using kits in combat.. whereas there is none logical RP reason why any character would be able to do so.

Removing +Heal.. after a longer thought about it seems a good decision and cutting out the meta of Kits -in combat.


And now.. raise Your pitchforks of counter-arguments backed by mathematics

[Morderon]

Power creep doesn't really apply given it's power any character already has available to them. It's more so evening up the field between those who can find an enchanter and those who cannot; although the loot shouldn't be so consistently good, or good enough, that it replaces the need for an enchanter/crafter.

[Cortex]

I just logged, and lo behold what I found in literally first two player shops I checked.

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii17 ... Srsly1.jpg
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii17 ... Srsly2.jpg
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii17 ... Srsly3.jpg
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii17 ... Srsly4.jpg

Is this really intentional? New loot system was implemeted few days ago. Most artifacts for sale are crap compared to this, and those items are rather powerful even by measures of epic enchanters.

-V-

where is the boot from the first pic, asking for a friend

[One Two Three Five]

Power creep doesn't really apply given it's power any character already has available to them. It's more so evening up the field between those who can find an enchanter and those who cannot; although the loot shouldn't be so consistently good, or good enough, that it replaces the need for an enchanter/crafter.

And, keep in mind, this system is on a timer. Any shop 'filled' with this stuff is likely the result of grinding, or trades, or a real lucky party.

Making crafting and enchanting more worthwhile (instead of enchanting being entirely required by every single character) to on par with dropped gear seems the best bet, and almost certainly something that's already being worked on.

[vaclavc]

where is the boot from the first pic, asking for a friend

Tell him to simply browse random shops like me
-V-

[vaclavc]

And, keep in mind, this system is on a timer. Any shop 'filled' with this stuff is likely the result of grinding, or trades, or a real lucky party.

Such items are literally everywhere in player shops. It does not seem like luck to me; I know some of the sellers and they are definitely not grinders. Moreover, the system was implemented few days ago.
All these items are sold at prices that are lower than the cost of similar enchantmets.
Just saying.
-V-