Arelith - Hak Server

[Irongron]

In regard to a recent topic elsewhere on the forum, I'm starting this one to let you know my position on Haks, and after discussion with the other admins I'm going to come clean on one thing I've been working on.

For a few months, around August/September last year some of you may recall I went quite quiet with Development work. During that time I was working on a 3rd Arelith server, Guldorand (The Fortress City), a new starting city, with its own unique narrative, and reflecting RP I'd seen taking place in the Skull Crags, and one intended to use full HAK content.

In part this was so I could become familar, myself, with what the options were, and what, as server, we could acheive. Nothing is set in stone here, I should make that clear. A project this size, even with the weeks of work I've already completed, would not be finished quickly. I also have other project I wish to finish first. Mainly the Lowerdark update (which will hopefully be soon) and, finally, the castles Gloom and Darrowdeep.

What I am considering is this though; For a trial period, the northern slopes of Guldorand, with their newly built city would be 'gated' via an IC explanation. Players would be advised they'd need to use our HAK executable in order to access this area of the isle. For players this would mean experiencing what could potentially be possible, and for myself not only learning to build the module with them, but to assess the impact on player numbers and how readily HAKs could be supported on Arelith.

This would be world side stuff, with new tilesets, placeables, creatures and PC fighting styles. What I have discovered is that some of this content doesn't just allow for a prettier world, but also a different game-play style. I have given previews to some of our DMs and staff, who can likely chime in about what they've seen thus far.

But I stress once again this IS NOT GUARANTEED to be happening. A hak gated Arelith expansion is just one idea, and there are those that would prefer I either jumped in with both feet, applying HAKs throughout, or avoided this idea altogether. My own personal feeling? That both myself and many of our players are not in a position to make an informed judgement. I have a big list of things to do for Arelith, and I can't imagine this being ready before the last quarter of 2017. I would require the aid of other developers, especially those that would be able to contruct a prototype HAK file for Arelith. I also would rule out the possibility of a new starting location if our numbers stopped rising. Right now it looks good in that regard, but we cannot bank on continued popularity.

Noxt suggested I post some screenshots here, which I may get round to once I'm working on this again, but for now I'm just letting you all know, in the interests both of transparancy, and to show that I am attempting to find a way to navigate both sides of this debate.

To those that are highly concerned that we're going to introduce HAKs overnight- That's not going to happen, and to those that are keen for our server to explore the possibilities this offers, I would very much like to.

I have perhaps two motivations to work on Arelith; to make it the best world I can, and to ensure our players have a genuine investment in our game. The first of these I am in little doubt could be far better achieved by utilising the best of the HaK content avaialable, but the second? Well, as we've learned in the past not every change that has been made To Arelith has been welcome. The server is in a very good place right now, and it may not be best time for us to make a leap into the unknown.

[One Two Three Five]

Cautiously hype-tomistic. New clothes options too, maybe? Too early for questions on what might be included, I guess?

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Thank you for this post, Irongron.

This is some necessary insight into some of the ideas and visions among the Admin/Dev Team. And I think it's great to see some of these ideas being disseminated publicly.

I think it's great to see that we are constantly trying to push the envelope, both with what we can do with what we have, and testing some of this new areas/paradigms, like with nwnx. I think any kind of Dev/Admin, however, must recognize the temptation that is the .hak file and how it could breathe new life and add more possibilities in a game that's some decade-and-a-half old.

I do, however, want to provide some feedback. Primarily in a counter-point to irongorn's idea.

I think any kind of idea of "gating" content or actual locales on the island would not be the appropriate measure to take. I completely understand the rationale behind it - you get to "test" it in a protected environment. My concern, however, comes on the heels of a whirlwind of discussions encountered elsewhere in the gaming community about ideas of gated content, and segregated playerbases. For a recent discussion on some of these models, here's an article I found with a quick google search that sums up some of it: http://www.gamesradar.com/the-multiplay ... illing-it/

If one of the main worries about .hak is the "technical prowess" required in navigating the file folders of NWN, ensuring compatibility, and keeping files up-to-date, I think adding a content behind this "gate" would only seek to segregate the community. Perhaps this is a bit hyperbolic, but my first reaction was how so many big AAA games have died on the winds of creating "gates" of expansions (see the article above).

Now, I understand that those examples involve $$$, and a .hak 3rd server here would not. I think nonetheless there is a common principle of "I need this and this" to play the game "and THEN this" to play another part of the game.

To me, I think that can be seen as a kind of deterrent. This all relates to other economic factors like size files and so forth (limited bandwidth are still issues that plague the common gamer).

Instead of adding a realm of experimentation, I would instead challenge the Admins/Devs to consider wide-sweeping installation that requires an "all or nothing" implementation of .haks into the server and letting it settle.

I understand that might be a drastic approach. But somehow I predict having conversations something along the lines of,

"Hey, let's go to Guldorand and the Crags!"
"Can't :/"
"Why not?"
"Don't have the haks"

I know to many it seems silly to not know how to install hak files or whatnot, but I'd rather have none of these conversations (because everyone is hak'd or hakless) than having these kinds of conversations that could segregate the playerbase and the community.

[Hawker]

I am going to put a request in right here and now on behalf of at least three players that I know who are on cellular data with a data cap being shared between their family as the only means of internet.

IF Arelith goes down a path of Hak's please, please put in a policy of spreading the releases apart by large chunks of time and releasing downloads in advance of when they will be required. None of us would enjoy being in a position of not being able to play the game because it updated and it will be several days before you can drive to a town with WiFi that you could use to download the update.

[ActionReplay]

Personally I think Arelith should be HAK-free, always, no exceptions. That being said I have seen this content Irongron has created and its pretty damn cool and yeah you get tempted to use HAKs.

But as Irongron already said Arelith will never truly go over to being a server using HAKS entirely. I see this project more of a trial sort of speak, to test things out and see how it goes. If its well received then yeah maybe its worth proceeding with it, if not no big deal.

If it was decided to make it "official" sort of speak then I am fairly sure we would create some sort of Arelith Launcher for players to make use of that would keep your Arelith HAK updated and installed properly. And I am also pretty sure there would be a tight leash on what content was to be added to the HAK as to keep the download size at an appropriate size.

Cheers!

[Irongron]

I understand that might be a drastic approach. But somehow I predict having conversations something along the lines of,

"Hey, let's go to Guldorand and the Crags!"
"Can't :/"
"Why not?"
"Don't have the haks"

I know to many it seems silly to not know how to install hak files or whatnot, but I'd rather have none of these conversations (because everyone is hak'd or hakless) than having these kinds of conversations that could segregate the playerbase and the community.

You're absolutely right, and while there would be an in-character explanation for the 'gate' that is essentially what it would boil down to.

All I can really reply to this point is that it would be temporary, and would be surrounded by a strong narrative, this would end in either a full HAK Arelith, or an end of days event for the new city, and reversion to what we have now.

I don't want to play fast and loose with the future of Arelith, I never have. We have a long history and a dedicated player base. Big promises are made about HAKs, what it will offer, how it will affect our popularity, and how painless we can make that introduction. I need to see the truth of these before entrusting our future to what would be the single largest change it the server's history. Of course it may be the wrong call, and I may be being too cautious, but curently it is where my intincts lie. If we can make it a fun event for a few months? All the better.

As above though, while I've done a ton of work on this project the plan isn't fixed, and will be reading the input in this thread closely.

[Cortex]

Would really anyone at this point in time not be aware Arelith has a website/forum, where they can get the HAKs? You already have to know that Arelith exists to play it if you get a NWN copy since gamespy is kill.

[Irongron]

Would really anyone at this point in time not be aware Arelith has a website/forum, where they can get the HAKs? You already have to know that Arelith exists to play it if you get a NWN copy since gamespy is kill.

There's a bunch of other considerations besides the ease of actually getting the file. Not all HAKs function properly, and there is the file size as stated above, how it would affect those on older systems and how readily our .exe would work, and simply how this kind of content would be received.

There are those who are certain HAKs are a bad idea, and I'm going to simply say 'Hey, I know better and you're wrong'. Because, well, I don't. This is a question that, whichever way we cut it, alienates some members of our community, and our team. Ideally I'd like everyone to feel they are being listened to, and their concerns taken seriously.

[Cortex]

What would be the file size? Is it possible to get a few 'beta testers' with ye ole 98 OS to try it with?

[Irongron]

We wouldn't really know the file size until we had a better idea what was to be included, and a lot of questions wouldn't properly be answerd until I'd had some weeks/months to monitor its impact and level of support.

[Cortex]

What would be the viability of holding a survey "IG", for the time span of a week, every time someone logs on, they get a message about the news and that they can vote with a command like -hak/-nohak, asking for their opinions on it?

Otherwise, having it run as a temporary test on a settlement, a few dungeons or so, could be interesting to see what happens and how people react.

[Shadofury]

I for one volunteer for test subject

[Shadofury]

I am going to put a request in right here and now on behalf of at least three players that I know who are on cellular data with a data cap being shared between their family as the only means of internet.

IF Arelith goes down a path of Hak's please, please put in a policy of spreading the releases apart by large chunks of time and releasing downloads in advance of when they will be required. None of us would enjoy being in a position of not being able to play the game because it updated and it will be several days before you can drive to a town with WiFi that you could use to download the update.

i would be happy to take the responsibility to burn and mail out cds to any who cant get high speed access enough to dl the files

[Tathkar Eisgrim]

I think the server-community has issues and faults that need to be addressed, that should be a priority over haks.

[Miaou]

While I am all for Haks and really want such so we can have super neat things, I think having a "gated" section of the server with hak content isn't the best. I'm not saying I am against it and it would be a good "test". But blocking off places such as Guldorand can and most likely will kill activity there or at least change roleplay majorly around the area, which players around there might be annoyed at.

While I understand the need for a "test" of such content, I hope you understand doing so will be viewed negatively, in the ways others before me pointed out. I would love for us to simply switch over and from a players perspective it seems like the kid who only touches the pool water with his foot and won't jump in. But I can understand it from a "Dev" perspective, wanting to test a system to see how it works without changing everything at once, a trial of sorts.

Interesting times ahead.

[Cortex]

I think the server-community has issues and faults that need to be addressed, that should be a priority over haks.

Not terribly specific.

[JediMindTrix]

A move in the right direction.

[Tathkar Eisgrim]

I think the server-community has issues and faults that need to be addressed, that should be a priority over haks.

Not terribly specific.

Indeed. I was trying to be cautious in choosing my words. I am trying to get my head around saying something exactly and carefully and respectfully.

[Nekonecro]

FL 2.0 anyone?

[Wolfking6116]

While I am all for Haks and really want such so we can have super neat things, I think having a "gated" section of the server with hak content isn't the best. I'm not saying I am against it and it would be a good "test". But blocking off places such as Guldorand can and most likely will kill activity there or at least change roleplay majorly around the area, which players around there might be annoyed at.

I can kind of agree with this; Perhaps a suggestion as far as something in character would be a trade port opens up... somewhere not on Arelith... with an option for travel between the two open for a limited time. It gives a bit more free reign in what can be made for it, though it does require a bit more work. This also doesn't cut off an already existing area. In essence it's an expansion area that unlocks with the Haks, though since it's free there's no real loss.

[yellowcateyes]

While it's nice to see the server trying out new and shiny options for moving forward, there does remain a number of issues with core systems. Old and persistent problems with crafting, dungeon/mob balance and lackluster core classes will continue to exist, regardless of how many tilesets are added.

I think the server-community has issues and faults that need to be addressed, that should be a priority over haks.

Yes. If haks help fix those issues, I'm all for them. But if we're going that road just for the sake of shinies in a decades-old game, I'd rather just load up Witcher 3 again.

[Irongron]

Old and persistent problems

I get as frustrated with these as much as most other players, but it is worth remembering just how large Arelith is, and that one person's solution is another persons critical breakage. The team has been amazing this last year though, and I feel the server has been greatly improved, and I'm confident we can go on doing so.

These things don't easily happen though, and require hundreds of work hours, and plenty more in discussion. I don't pay the staff, and the admins are all too often faced with hard decisions. I'm sure Haks will help with some problems, but definitely not all. What does help though is having a development team that are enthusiastic about their work, and a playerbase who feel that their concerns are listened to.

[Hunter548]

I'm gonna be honest: If Arelith goes hak-heavy, it should go all the way. Doing it by half measures is just going to exacerbate any playerbase splitting problems going on right now. Either go fully hak, or no haks.

Personally? I think going fully hak'd is the answer; I don't find the accessibility, or difficulty arguments persuasive. Nobody's been able to just load up NWN and play since Gamespy went down a few years back, so you already have to use outside websites to get the server's IP - Said websites also listing needed haks, from what I recall. And, tbh, putting haks in NWN is just not that hard: Anyone who can manage taking IG screenshots and putting them on the forums can do it, especially if the server puts together a custom .exe that handles all the installation itself.

If you can take a screenshot, crop it in paint, and upload it on the forums, you can put a .hak in NWN. As for old machines/OSes, exactly how old are we expecting people's computer's to be? Windows 7 is 8 years old, and requires you to play with NWN to get it to work properly. Vista, from what I recall of two laptops ago, was also a pain in the Snuggybear as far as NWN was concerned. Do we actually think that any portion of the playerbase is running arelith on an OS from 15 years ago? Or Hardware from circa the time NWN was originally released?

I'm all for haks, as long as they focus on improving back-end and mechanical stuff, rather than slapping new coats of paint on the module. Give us more Stuff to do (Spell creation?), rather than prettier faces, clothing and areas to do the same old stuff in.

[Horselords]

My feel: Concerned, not for me, I would install those haks and forget they even exist and just appreciate the new content. But concerned that it ends up in player-loss, and right now and forever, playercount>everything else. So yeah, concerned.

But, history has shown that empires too shy to move forward and stop innovating, stagnate, get corrupt, and crumble. We are on a 15 years old boat, I don't believe using haks to keep that boat floating/cool and up to speed, isn't a bad thing no matter how resistant to change we might be.

Bonus concerns : haks only for barely better pixely textures : NWN is ugly, it will be ugly with haks too. Also : Haks to change what NWN and dnd 3.0 is at its core. Haks should not be about offering a different game experience, the community would feel betrayed if haks changed NWN in ways that are too deep.

Also : Full haks or no haks. If mid-haks, then do it on an isle as a separate expansion, not something we already know. Just my feel.

[Irongron]

I'm gonna be honest: If Arelith goes hak-heavy, it should go all the way. Doing it by half measures is just going to exacerbate any playerbase splitting problems going on right now. Either go fully hak, or no haks.

Ultimately it will be, and in regard to the rest of your post I'm largely in agreement. This isn't something that only requires a decision though, but a great deal of work and decision making from the staff. Rushing into it could lead to critical problems, and whatever my own personal opinion I have to accept the possibility that it may be the wrong one.

What I am considering/proposing is not a fixed 'split' to the playerbase, but a period of potential transition as I discern, ultimately, how realistic these plans are.