Raw power of Flameborns.

[The Rambling Midget]

...also, wands, scrolls, potions? They aren't nowhere near as useful as a TFer in a party, save for the mandatory clarity potion.

No, certainly not as useful as a True Flame. I'm with you on that part.

I'm more referring to FS, WM, and to a lesser degree Warlocks. (As far as their buffs go.) If, when playing a mundane character, my options are between tracking down a Vancian caster for really good but limited buffs, and just using wands/scrolls/potions for renewable good enough buffs while being more careful, I tend toward magic items, because they get the job done and are way easier to deal with and more reliable. Having a dedicated buffer in the party, if their buffs are limited, doesn't make that much of a difference, unless the circumstances are extreme.

[Cortex]

I'll agree that some mages don't add much to adventuring or grinding, but some things to keep note of:

Wizard early on can grant buffs that are not yet readily available, and mid-epic they grant higher level buffs like Protection from Spells and Mass Haste. As well a safety net for when stuff goes bad.

Sorcerer works similarly but is inferior to the wizard in regards to buffs, but superior in regards to safety net.

Cleric is always good to have, no matter what, 'cause you just can't get that tasty AC otherwise.

Druid is... bad, but that's the class itself which is in dire need of an overhaul.

I had forgotten FS was a thing until you mentioned. I've mixed feelings on it, it's like a weaker bard, but it has infinite haste and other buffs.

[The Rambling Midget]

I had forgotten FS was a thing until you mentioned. I've mixed feelings on it, it's like a weaker bard, but it has infinite haste and other buffs.

That one I feel keeps itself in check pretty well. None of the buffs are overly powerful, and for lack of upper level cooldown reduction, they never really become spammable. When playing one, I could drop maybe two useful spells in a typical mob fight, which was enough to give a little boost, but not turn the tide if things were going badly.

[Astral]

I had forgotten FS was a thing until you mentioned. I've mixed feelings on it, it's like a weaker bard, but it has infinite haste and other buffs.

That one I feel keeps itself in check pretty well. None of the buffs are overly powerful, and for lack of upper level cooldown reduction, they never really become spammable. When playing one, I could drop maybe two useful spells in a typical mob fight, which was enough to give a little boost, but not turn the tide if things were going badly.

I concur. Been playing a melee FS for 6-7 months now, its REALLY fun for pve. You refresh your extended haste every time it runs out. You get to open fights against spawns with ONE of the following: Warcry, Wounding Whispers, Ethereal Visage. You can also cast silence on yourself and charge the mage mob. However, over all, you're a hasted melee character with not nearly as ab or dps or beefiness of a fighter. you got your spells to keep yourself alive but you often find yourself having to run away or fall back to using wands. I always carry a haste and ii wands with me. in raw power terms? Bards are WAY stronger than FS just like vanilla sorcs are WAY stronger than weavers. The difference is that FSs don't have anything a fighter/wm/rogue cant have (in terms of melee numbers) and they don't have bard song AND they don't benefit from quicken spells a lot, and no access to AQS so they don't "break" the pve balance of the server. Weavers DO.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I think in builds where bard song was not very important (Bard/CoT/WM, Bard/WM/Fighter, Bard/Paladin/Fighter) favoured soul can be extremely dangerous. It's a similar issue as other infinite casters - it can last a lot longer than the typical bard.

[Astral]

I think in builds where bard song was not very important (Bard/CoT/WM, Bard/WM/Fighter, Bard/Paladin/Fighter) favoured soul can be extremely dangerous. It's a similar issue as other infinite casters - it can last a lot longer than the typical bard.

FS is FAR from dangerous in power both in pve and pvp, as the server looks right now. Bards do the same thing but better. If we compare Sorcerers to weave masters, the second is infi-caster with cooldowns and no other differences. If you compare the bard to FS, the second allows normal armory, infi-caster with cooldowns and no bard song which is one of (if not) the best buffs in the game. I played bard/bg, bard cot, bard WM, and currently a favoured soul CoT. The FS is the weakest among all the bards. The trade off the FS gets for infi-casting is really fun for pve-ing slightly fast to epics and then the bards out-class the FS greatly. Essencially, FS is what I would recommend a new player who doesn't want to just bash things with a sword.

[Nitro]

FS does get permanent uptime on some very potent short duration buffs though, like Ethereal visage, Improved Invis, warcry etc. As well as infinite healing. Not as powerful as a well built bard counterpart, but with a lot more staying power.

[Peppermint]

FS does get permanent uptime on some very potent short duration buffs though, like Ethereal visage, Improved Invis, warcry etc. As well as infinite healing. Not as powerful as a well built bard counterpart, but with a lot more staying power.

In this respect, favored souls are a lot like weavemasters: really powerful early, but fall off into obsolescence late. It's merely a difference in extremes; weavemasters are even more broken early, and even more powerless late.

Anyone that understands how the action economy of Vancian casting (i.e. the default model) works can surely understand why this might be. The spells were never designed with cooldowns in mind, but instead total available 'slots'. Spells with longer durations become (relatively) much more valuable when cooldowns are introduced (e.g. summons, haste), whereas instantaneous spells become much less attractive (e.g. finger of death, IGMS). While one could rebalance these spells to fit infini-casters better, there remains a massive obstacle: rebalancing them for infini-casters inherently breaks Vancian caster balance.

Ultimately, Vancian and infini are both fine as models; however, they cannot really co-exist. It's impossible to balance spells for two entirely separate resource pools simultaneously.

[Amineh123]

Allright, so we pretty much discussed it over, went off-topic as well, but it all has to end somewhere into summary.
From what I've understood, in a very plain way (please don't quote it, it's really just an irony) :
Infinite casters are FUN but UNBALANCED, in various ways.
Default casters and BORING but somewhat BETTER.

A couple of people here, casters included, from what I've understood - would like to get rid of infinite casting, BUT in exchange for not-having-to-wait-forever-to-rest between battles, so PvE is not boring anymore.

If I may make a suggestion, I'll keep it simple:
- Infinite casters stay, because deleting someone's characters is wrong.
- Infinite casters become an award-only class, OR not, deleted as a choice from now on.
- Default casters are able to regain their spells much faster than it is before, either by reducing resting time, or finding other way, like an option similar to REST but one that only regain spells - PREPARE, or SIT AND RELAX, whatever you call it - just not as restricted (time consuming) as REST.
This way PvP is largely untouched, PvE though is much more enjoyable.
- Spell components STAY as it is.

What do you think?

[Ambigue]

What do you think?

I think the ideal solution is probably to take a page from 5E's book and make cantrips and, past a certain caster level, 1st-level spells infinitely castable, no matter the core casting class.

As Cortex, I think, has repeatedly said, you cannot balance Vancian and Infini-casting adequately. They are two different games played with the same tools. That said, there aren't any 1st or 0th level spells that would unbalance things overmuch if they were infinitely castable.

[Hunter548]

[ That said, there aren't any 1st or 0th level spells that would unbalance things overmuch if they were infinitely castable.

Grease.

[Lorkas]

It isn't stackable anymore, at least.

[Peppermint]

Amineh123 is on the right track, IMO. The trick isn't to balance vancian vs. infinicasters (which is impossible). Rather, vancian casters should be given a few of the features that makes infinicasters more fun and infinicasters deprecated. Win-win.

The question is, how to do that?

[Hunter548]

I'm not sure giving vancian casters a few infinite spells is the solution. Just looking at the first level spell list, giving them infinite first level spells doesn't give them much that's Useful. Grease is really good if it's infinite, yeah, but other than that it doesn't seem like it would do anything other than combat the ADHD some players apparently get when playing non-infinite casters and pretend that they're contributing with the piddling damage of magic missile twice a round.

[Ambigue]

I'm not sure giving vancian casters a few infinite spells is the solution.

I'm sorry. I meant that that's what we should do INSTEAD of infinicasters.

[Amineh123]

Seriously, is making a normal rest divided on one as it is currently, and the other that does nothing else except regain spells and skills is so OP? Everyone could use it. It's only usable outside of battle. Where's harm in that?
It seems so simple to me.

[Ambigue]

Seriously, is making a normal rest divided on one as it is currently, and the other that does nothing else except regain spells and skills is so OP? Everyone could use it. It's only usable outside of battle. Where's harm in that?
It seems so simple to me.

Because it makes all casters, effectively, infinicasters. Instead of spamming buffs every now and then, everyone just stops to let the wizard trance or whatever and restore everyone's buffs. And his timestop. And his Planar summon. And his everything else that isn't a buff that your typical weavemaster doesn't usually bother with.

If the limiting factor becomes "Restores spells up to a certain level", then you might as well make all spells at that level and below infinitely castable.

If the limiting factor becomes a timer of some sort, then it would be easier to simply adjust rest values.

[Amineh123]

What if:
Spell focus gives infinite cast in 0-2 spell level
Greater Spell focus gives infinite cast in 3-4 spell level
Epic Spell focus gives infinite cast in 5-6 spell level
Of course, only in focused school.
Levels 7-9 is normal, default cast for both sorc and wiz.
Unfocused schools are default as it is.

[Ambigue]

What if:
Spell focus gives infinite cast in 0-2 spell level
Greater Spell focus gives infinite cast in 3-4 spell level
Epic Spell focus gives infinite cast in 5-6 spell level
Of course, only in focused school.
Levels 7-9 is normal, default cast for both sorc and wiz.
Unfocused schools are default as it is.

That just means spellcasters become, overall, more powerful. In general, the higher the level the spell, the less desireable it is from a balance standpoint to make it castable a large number of times over the course of a day. Making sixth level spells infinitely castable without some sort of ENORMOUS drawback, is going to be pretty problematic.

Plus, it just means every single spellcaster will take the two or three feats required to make all the good low-level buffs infinitely castable. That will become the right answer for every build always because it's just that good.

Since most of your bread and butter buffs are 2nd or 3rd level, it seems a good idea to keep infinite casting to first level and cantrips if at all.

[Cortex]

hmmm these posts are great study

[Amineh123]

I was hoping for someone to figure out a drawback to that.
Maybe make spell focus a one school only feat, abjuration - opposed by conjuration and so on.
So you get infinite abjuration up to lvl 6 but no conjuration at all?
That would make you a school specialist. And can only pick one.
Who says you can't be a specialist in buffing? And all the rest spells are default.

[earthsong309]

Make all casters infinicasters! (Hear me out.)

I don't know how to code, so I don't know what's possible and what isn't, so forgive my ignorance; but here's a neat idea for your consideration.

1) Do away with the option to select Weave Master/True Flame at character creation.

Grandfather in those that exist. Warlocks should remain, as they are a unique class in and of themselves.

2) Make all casters quasi-infinicasters via time-dependent spell refreshment.

Circle 1 spell slots are refreshed (left to right, not the whole row) every 1 IG hour, circle 2 every 2, circle 3 every 3, and so on, building up to circle 9 slots which are refreshed left to right every 9 in game hours. Auto Quicken I-III could shorten the length of time between refreshes in the same manner it does for Weave Masters now (circles 1-3 would be spammable).

I know this is at least possible considering a Wild Mage's surge proc refreshes the wizard's spell slot.

Obviously this should be adjusted according to what the devs see as balanced.

Rest functions as normal, so Vancian casters have a choice between resting or waiting for spells to refresh. It puts more emphasis on using low-circle spells and gives an incentive to taking things slow (and roleplaying) rather than rushing through dungeons.

Wizards still have a wider arrangement of spells, but a smaller pool to draw from before their spells are depleted. Sorcerers are still sorcerers, with a larger pool to draw from before their spells are depleted. Both would be encouraged to focus more heavily on low-circle spells while they wait for their high-circle spells to refresh.

Then again, this is probably a lot of work, and I imagine it would cause a lot of script lag (?), but in my very ignorant opinion it's a good middleground between infinicasters and Vancian casters.

[Amineh123]

That would make casters super weak.

[earthsong309]

That would make casters super weak.

How? They still have the option to rest to refresh their spells immediately. Everything remains the same, they just have their spells refreshed over time. This makes them stronger.

EDIT: Also, you're suggesting giving mages infinite casts of spells from foci. So my evoc sorcerer would be able to spam Bigby's and IGMS to her heart's content with zero drawbacks.

That's way too powerful.

[Amineh123]

Ah, I haven't red that, you probably edited it before I could.
Well, that is a way, but it seems a bit too difficult to code (no idea, an assumption only)
Seems complicated to keep track of, as well.
I'd stay with the school speciality idea.