Arelith impressions.

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DM GrumpyCat
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Re: Arelith impressions.

Post by DM GrumpyCat » Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:06 pm

The occasional big DM event is fun, and I definatly think they should occur. But franlky I think one of the big strengths of Arelith is that it provides the tools to enable great player plots.

At the risk of sounding like an That Person - back in the old days there were basicaly no, or very, very few DM events. We very much had to make our own fun and y'know what? It basically worked. Now we have lots and lots of fun DM plots and a lot more freedom as a DM. And y'know what? That's AWSOME, and I love it. It's a great improvement. But suggesting that the entire server needs a massive over arching plot is not a good move.

Why is it a bad idea?

1) Dm's get sick, get called away, or just get bored. If that happens then the plot running crawls to a hault. I've been guilty of this myself, and it's not uncommon even now. Yes, if the Mega Plot was shared between a few DMS, it might last longer. But that ultimatly can lead to discrepencies in story and, even so - we're gonna get bored of running said plot after a bit, and players will want some form of resolution. The problem with major DM plots is eventually they /end/. Asking for one that last RL years will just result in burnout I think, or an ending that's less a 'bang' and more a 'trickle'

2) Favoritism: People already complain that DM plots get hogged by certain players. Imagine if there was one mega plot, by neccesity it would end up being centred around a group of players I think, for cohesions sake. And if it's a months and months long plot, that'd get dull quick, both for the players involved, and those not involved.

3) More Favouritsm: If we had mega plots that changed the server (e.g. the utter destruction of Cordor) then we'd get people being very upset with us.

4) Dev Burnout: Ultimatly the Devs tend to work on projects they like. Asking them to constantly change areas to fit our plots would be exhausing for them and would result in burnout if done regularly

5) Area Balence: Sure it sounds good to have a Dm plot where Cordor gets smooshed, but then where will the starting area be? These sort of things can't be done lightly, or on any sort of regular basis. In fact such decisions are best lead by the Dev team, who can work on a project when they feel like it, and have the energy, rather than being tugged around by the Dms.
Railroaded, repetitive, or events that aren't player-centric is bad DMing, and has nothing to do with my point. Assume I'm talking about competent GMcraft. A good narrative (and who says they have to be apocalyptic) is irreplaceable for driving character development in a way that the usual election bickering and bulletin-board shitposting never will.
I think the problem here is that, in as much as we espource that Arelith is similar to PnP, in some ways it rally isn't. And whilst you are right, the above are excellent points for good Pen and Paper Dming, they are not for Arelith or as I call it 'Mass DMing' wherin changes have to be significantly slower.

The Tl;DR of my theory is this:

In Pen and Paper the game is based around changing the setting and following a flowing, mass 'story'.
In Mass Gaming (Arelith, Ravenloft, also some large LARPS ect) the game is often based as much in character-to-character interaction, and filing in the story that develops there. The world is much more static, but the characters are, ironicaly, much more fluid. And the best and easiest stories are obtained not so much by seeking to change the world, but seeking to change yourself/the characters around you. Personal storylines basically.
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Re: Arelith impressions.

Post by Ebonstar » Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:41 pm

played on a server that had an over arching mega plot campaign that had moved from the group pnp to nwn.

had its own lore and all characters had to be approved to fit the setting with reason and cause to fit in that setting set up by the original groups creation. Those pnp players were not only the ones who held the setting titles for who they were but were also the main dm team for the whole online aspect.

the over arch ran from 04 to 07 online continuing the prior few years worth from the pnp times. once that campaign was done, of which each dm had a set space to move the plotlines which led to all smaller archs combining to the climax.

while this was great, noone outside the original group had a chance to become these titles that would be passed down to the next able carrier of the torch so to speak.
so when the team decided they wanted to make money creating an mmo, and not run the main servers anymore leaving backup dms and newbies to run things, the server fell apart and a 250 player base scattered to the winds

bottom line overarchs sound really cool, but they have bad downsides
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Re: Arelith impressions.

Post by ReverentBlade » Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:10 pm

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I've done my fair share of DMing for both tabletop and PW, and there's a magic that a "main story" adds that can't be replaced by interpersonal RP in a static word. I get what you're saying, GrumpyCat, but that just hasn't been my experience. Interpersonal RP outside the context of an actual curated story just ends up going in circles. There's never -real- consequences, and there's only so much impetus that a cardboard cutout world can impart.

The best time I had on Arelith is when my character was making deals with gangsters and rebel heroes in Lower Cordor, arguing with Amnish Admirals, and debating with the King's cleric handmaid. Then scouring the island for people that share similar ideals and -getting them involved too-. I'm sad that never went anywhere. Arelith has a great potential to tell a bigger story that I feel is being hamstrung by policy.

EDIT: Props to Chilliad for the above events, btw. I'd love to see more in that style.

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Re: Arelith impressions.

Post by CosmicOrderV » Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:42 am

It might only be situational, due to the fact that HAKs will be progressively changing the server (that is to say, this theoretically won't continue forever) but it would be cool to see server changes perhaps preceded by relevant DM events, to sort of 'herald' the changes.

I realize this isn't exactly the topic, but it felt related. I'm sure something like this could scratch that itch.

I almost wonder, too, if there's some minor miscommunication. DM Watchtower plots? Ho'baby those were always far reaching and awesome. And none of my characters were ever even directly involved! It was a blast just being able to witness it from the sidelines. That one time the dracolich Kris'alix decided to start cult in the obsidian asylum, hiring PC's to help further its nefarious aims? Also super wicked fun! I don't know about the full implications of an 'overarching server plot' but I do think the occasional (maybe even seldom) big server changing story arch is healthy. It helps maintain the illusion of consequence and change. That said (and I think this is part of the miscommunication maybe), even Watchtower's plots were player driven. I don't think that part is ever meant to be lost.

One can have big over-arching stories AND they be player driven / inspired.

And again, I'm tempted to think a few DM plots to help precede the advent of specific HAKs being introduced to the server, could be hella fun. I can think of a few right off the top of my head.
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Re: Arelith impressions.

Post by Liareth » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:57 am

ReverentBlade wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:10 pm
Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I've done my fair share of DMing for both tabletop and PW, and there's a magic that a "main story" adds that can't be replaced by interpersonal RP in a static word. I get what you're saying, GrumpyCat, but that just hasn't been my experience. Interpersonal RP outside the context of an actual curated story just ends up going in circles. There's never -real- consequences, and there's only so much impetus that a cardboard cutout world can impart.

The best time I had on Arelith is when my character was making deals with gangsters and rebel heroes in Lower Cordor, arguing with Amnish Admirals, and debating with the King's cleric handmaid. Then scouring the island for people that share similar ideals and -getting them involved too-. I'm sad that never went anywhere. Arelith has a great potential to tell a bigger story that I feel is being hamstrung by policy.

EDIT: Props to Chilliad for the above events, btw. I'd love to see more in that style.
Great feedback. I completely agree with it, but only from a macro perspective.

Dynamic DM driven events can inject incredibly positive and inspiring moments into the game, but they can also inflict more harm than good when overdone. I think Arelith strikes a good ratio between non-DM-activity to big-DM-event (e.g., the micro level), but on the macro level, it can fall a bit short at times.

An ongoing overarching background plot would be a great thing to have as long as it doesn't spiral into a back to back DM events. To me, there are two primary motivators for avoiding regular DM events. First, DM events are chaotic, exhausting, and laggy. Second, DM events are (typically) not inclusive. There is a phrase "lot lizard" that some of you may know - when you hold a DM event on Arelith, there will inevitably be a horde of "event lizards" that chase the event at full speed and try to take the spotlight. These events are not representative of how anyone plays typically, and it's challenging to get everyone involved.

Subtle background plots seeded by the DMs that require minimal effort are something the team already do, but I think they could do more of them. They could especially tie more small in-game plots to player-driven conflict and development team updates. Imagine how special you would feel if you participated in some magic-related quest and at the end, a new path for wizards was introduced. It would make you feel like you caused that update, even if it was going to happen regardless of your input. Similarly, a war you were waging could result in a doubling of the guard in one place and a shortage of food in another. These things would be pretty awesome.

One factor to note is regarding the human element of the DM team. On Arelith, DMs are very much "administrative assistants". I don't say this to diminish them at all. They spend a massive amount of time dealing with a never-ending stream of player complaints and reports. Unfortunately, this leaves little time to do fun stuff. Even though the DM team is large, the time they spend in-game doing fun things is considerably lower than it should be. This may explain why there often seems to be a low level of DM activity. The team is around; they are just trying to navigate the fifth hostage situation of the day.

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Re: Arelith impressions.

Post by DM GrumpyCat » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:23 am

ReverentBlade wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:10 pm
Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I've done my fair share of DMing for both tabletop and PW, and there's a magic that a "main story" adds that can't be replaced by interpersonal RP in a static word. I get what you're saying, GrumpyCat, but that just hasn't been my experience. Interpersonal RP outside the context of an actual curated story just ends up going in circles. There's never -real- consequences, and there's only so much impetus that a cardboard cutout world can impart.

The best time I had on Arelith is when my character was making deals with gangsters and rebel heroes in Lower Cordor, arguing with Amnish Admirals, and debating with the King's cleric handmaid. Then scouring the island for people that share similar ideals and -getting them involved too-. I'm sad that never went anywhere. Arelith has a great potential to tell a bigger story that I feel is being hamstrung by policy.

EDIT: Props to Chilliad for the above events, btw. I'd love to see more in that style.
I actually entirely agree with this. Some amount of dm events are definatly a great idea, and it is possible in such events to give players an amount of choice, within the confines. I've been on the server when there were bascaily NO dm events, and nowadays, with a good peppering, things are much improved.
Further more the odd 'Mega' event is also a great idea, as it can bring people together and give the server an 'epic' feel.

My argument is that Arelith isn't really set up to have one huge Mega Event that goes n for RL years, and regularly shapes the server. I'm not saying it can't be done on other servers, but I do not think it'd work on Arelith, and that whilst DM events are good, there's a large danger in everythign surrounding DM event(s).
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Re: Arelith impressions.

Post by Seekeepeek » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:50 am

I came from a server that had a lot of DM events and i got rather feed up with them. i'd rather see no DM events at all to be honest, no disrespect for the DMs intended. I kinda joined Arelith for two reasons back in the days. Few DM events and an Underdark that was fun.

This is just my personal opinion, but i always found DM events laggy, un-fun and messy. But then again i think gatherings of more the 6+ people in one place to be confusing, simply to much chat and conversations going on at the same time (if it's a bunch of fast typers).. just urgh. DM events often have more then 10+ people in them i found. I got lots of Respect for the DMs that they can manage this lag cluster of players and my hat comes off to them in respect. just.. ain't my thing.. if i see a DM event unfold near me, I'll run far away...

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Re: Arelith impressions.

Post by ActionReplay » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:49 pm

Seekeepeek wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:50 am
I came from a server that had a lot of DM events and i got rather feed up with them. i'd rather see no DM events at all to be honest, no disrespect for the DMs intended. I kinda joined Arelith for two reasons back in the days. Few DM events and an Underdark that was fun.

This is just my personal opinion, but i always found DM events laggy, un-fun and messy. But then again i think gatherings of more the 6+ people in one place to be confusing, simply to much chat and conversations going on at the same time (if it's a bunch of fast typers).. just urgh. DM events often have more then 10+ people in them i found. I got lots of Respect for the DMs that they can manage this lag cluster of players and my hat comes off to them in respect. just.. ain't my thing.. if i see a DM event unfold near me, I'll run far away...
There can be smaller DM events though for just you and your party to enhance (EE) your experience. I'm not a big fan of huge server-wife DM events either, its easy to not feel you are part of it but I am sure people have different opinions about it. Though I've had my best moments when I'm in smaller groups and a DM is just there to spicen things up a bit.

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Re: Arelith impressions.

Post by Vrass » Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:49 am

I could not imagination playing on a server with no events... it would be boring as Hell lol. I always loved huge surprise events even despite the lag. Even if having a super-plot is not possible i still think we could afford to increase the number of announced events even if only by a small amount. Ultimately though its up to the admins and the dms themselves. In the mean time i will be joining more factions since 90% of events are based around them. Need to get my fix lol.

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Re: Arelith impressions.

Post by Subutai » Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:12 pm

ActionReplay wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:49 pm
I'm not a big fan of huge server-wife DM events either, its easy to not feel you are part of it
I think this is the absolutely key thing when it comes to server-wide DM events and big over-arching stories. In a PnP game, your characters are at the center of it. They take part in every major situation that doesn't specifically happen behind the scenes, and their actions directly impact the outcome of the campaign. This is possible because the group of players involved is small, maybe 3-6 people who always play together.

This is completely different from Arelith, where a server-wide event can involve huge numbers of players. Not all the characters played by those players will be able to contribute much. In my experience, you'll often have roughly the same PnP group number of characters, 3-6, or maybe a couple more, who are essentially calling all the shots, handling the decision making, etc., while everyone else just kind of tags along. Most of the characters involved won't really make a difference to the plot of the event. Trying to compensate for this can often end up with no one feeling like they matter, and that the story is just kind of chugging along with or without them.

I will, however, caveat all this by saying that I've had some good experiences with longer-running, mostly player-lead campaigns against a DM-controlled enemy. On a previous server I played on, there was a war against I believe a dracolich and his undead horde that went on for several months. The players coordinated their own efforts against it, set up their own opposition army, and set up a rather large camp out near where the undead army was supposed to be. Every so often, the DM running it would schedule an event regarding an undead raid nearby, or an undead attack against the camp, or would work with the players to get up a raid against the undead. That, combined with a few larger events coordinated longer term with the players who involved themselves in the war resulted in a very interesting setup. In retrospect, it suffered from some of the same problems of exclusivity that I talked about above, but the mostly-player-run style of it meant that exclusivity wasn't a direct problem of the event itself, but rather of the players' response to it.

The benefit to the event, though, was that while the server suffered from some of the same issues with PvP conflict and OOC bitternesst hat Arelith has suffered from lately, having a powerful, longer-term NPC opponent gave players a chance to get involved with a larger conflict without butting heads with each other over PvP issues. It also gave more casual players a chance to get involved in a larger conflict, whereas normally, interfaction PvP-based conflict can heavily favor powerbuilds.

Overall, it's the kind of event that I'd definitely be interested in participating in again, even if it didn't always go as smoothly as it could have. I think once this kind of event was done a few times, and the players and DMs got a better sense of how to do it, it could be a lot of fun for the players who choose to involve themselves.

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Re: Arelith impressions.

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:59 pm

It's a very difficult balance. We've seen how DM involvement had led to the destruction of settlements, that arguably were not any more or less significant than previous conflicts that have involved such actors.

But DM involvement has also created sprawling new spaces for roleplay.

Whenever a DM event is on, I usually run in the opposite direction. People/characters become fake, stiff, and compromised - they want to impress people and DMs, and everything becomes re-aligned to be the most cool, most edgey, most deep, most awesome.

Flipside, is that a lot of players can generate these massive intriguing story archs, but when all is said and done there is very little to show for it. (For me, this was always when Salamandra declared a monarchy of Bendir.)
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Re: Arelith impressions.

Post by Marsi » Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:31 pm

There's been times when I've felt smothered by DM involvement, it can be frustrating and disruptive when genuinely cool player dynamics are drowned out by Epic Demon Explosion Time. However, I know better than to try and advocate for no DM contact or events whatsoever -- and this certainly isn't my position -- having experienced a time a while ago I can only call the "doldrums" where so little of consequence was occurring in-game that it lead to one forum user equating the experience to playing with "pinecones and matchsticks" (something I'll always remember).

For me, the perfect balance is when DM's use their power to supercharge player choices. Preferably the narrative itself is spurred by players (eg. the Wharftown war), but not necessarily so.

I don't think impermanence is a bad thing, nor do I think lack of visible long-term consequence is a valid critique of player agency. If there is a coup, or a Cyricist takeover, or what have you, and that is eventually corrected and things are returned to a new normal, I don't think it's rendered meaningless on the whole because there isn't a DM to set it in stone. Just as with real-life history, things come and go, and people easily forget things that oughtn't be forgotten. Change works in more subtle ways.

As much as I'd like there to be a little bit more historical memory and lasting consequence, I don't see the month-to-month turnover of PCs as all that different to real-life generational dynamics however on a micro scale. It's funny, in Roman political history you have consuls embarking on these grandiose restructurings only for the next to just dump it and pretend like it never happened -- it felt very Cordorian, complete with message board shitposting.
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Re: Arelith impressions.

Post by DM Axis » Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:47 pm

I rather feel the subject could be its own topic in truth, but these elements are something we do keep in mind as DMs who run events!

Being one of the newest to join the Team's number has allowed me the chance to see first hand the challenges of going from a smaller tabletop setting and onto this almost MMO like quality. Arelith certainly has a bit more of a hands off approach, and events are by no means mandatory.

Finding those who are interested (story and event hooks) is often our first challenge. Whether a player goes seeking out something that would require a DM to assist, or whether the DM tries to either build on an activity in progress or offer a unique encounter to something already existing.
To that end we do presently take quest requests into consideration, but the Team also does try to prompt other stories out of the blue.

It's a unique challenge to create a story/event that can incorporate 10+ folks all at once. Let alone server wide.
It is an art more than it will ever be a science and it is one that hopefully those who have experienced my first attempts at it will provide me some feedback as I advance my craft and technique of my own stories and events.
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Re: Arelith impressions.

Post by ChevroletElvis » Wed May 22, 2019 2:09 pm

satan wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:05 pm

Noob friendly?

This is where Arelith needs work.
I sort of agree, however I feel this has actually gotten better over the years. I tried Arelith a while back, and they lost me at the start. I tried it again recently, and it's much better.... even though they actually added more stuff to learn!

I feel that the learning curve actually adds to the role-playing aspect. It CAN hurt the role-play if you are trying to role-play a know-it-all and as a player you don't actually know anything.... which happens... But mostly I feel that the game being difficult to learn is yet another positive.

I've seen role-playing servers try to add noobie friendly elements, and it is very difficult to add something noobie friendly that does not take away from the role-playing atmosphere.

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Re: Arelith impressions.

Post by ReverentBlade » Thu May 23, 2019 8:31 am

The total lack of ability to rebuild a character discourages a lot of newbies. They end up being unable to solo the content because they hit "recommended", and stick it out till the early teens until they are hit with an insurmountable wall of difficulty. At that point, the build is botched beyond all recognition, but they've already established plenty of IC relationships. Re-leveling is a bitter pill to swallow, and more often than not, its the first level and the stat spread that's messed up anyway. Telling them to give up on the character and start over is not something we should ever be telling newbies, but it is legit often the only solution.

Would giving each character a single, scripted, consumable "do-over" token on creation really be that server breaking? I'm legit dealing with 4-5 people with identical problems, so it is hardly an isolated problem.

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Re: Arelith impressions.

Post by KreshDickens » Thu May 23, 2019 7:07 pm

ReverentBlade wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 8:31 am
The total lack of ability to rebuild a character discourages a lot of newbies. They end up being unable to solo the content because they hit "recommended", and stick it out till the early teens until they are hit with an insurmountable wall of difficulty. At that point, the build is botched beyond all recognition, but they've already established plenty of IC relationships.
Exactly where I am now. I hit level 15 recently, leveling with new ingame friends the entire way. Downside is I went in the total wrong direction on crafting and goofed some skills. In the long run the character seems to be dead in the water.

I already rolled a new character, it just hurt having to realize I invested time into a null character. The journey was still fun and I learned.

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Re: Arelith impressions.

Post by Lycan » Fri May 24, 2019 6:37 am

DM events can be alot of fun but my favourite thing about Arelith is building relationships and stories in an interesting and immersive world. The best DM events are the ones that nurture that aspect in my opinion. It doesnt even have to be an event. Just little social interactions on behalf of the dm that nudge people towards something interesting or remind the player who their character is.
A recent great example of this was @DM_TItania taking over a guard yesterday to refuse entry to Skal to a tiefling player. It was a great welcome to Skal for the player and i imagine it really set the tone of play for them when they did eventually get in.
Big over-arching plots can be great fun! But my favourite moments have always been subtle little things among small groups of players and you can have those without any DM assistance atall thanks to the effort they put in keeping things in order behind the scenes, which is ALOT of work (which they do for free) and which sometimes means saying NO. So give them a break please!
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Re: Arelith impressions.

Post by Ebonstar » Fri May 24, 2019 7:09 am

ReverentBlade wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 8:31 am
The total lack of ability to rebuild a character discourages a lot of newbies. They end up being unable to solo the content because they hit "recommended", and stick it out till the early teens until they are hit with an insurmountable wall of difficulty. At that point, the build is botched beyond all recognition, but they've already established plenty of IC relationships. Re-leveling is a bitter pill to swallow, and more often than not, its the first level and the stat spread that's messed up anyway. Telling them to give up on the character and start over is not something we should ever be telling newbies, but it is legit often the only solution.

Would giving each character a single, scripted, consumable "do-over" token on creation really be that server breaking? I'm legit dealing with 4-5 people with identical problems, so it is hardly an isolated problem.
I have never met anyone who clicks recommended on a server with character building and development as you go, however I shall add the "do not do this" to any promotion posts I do in the future

However, not being able to solo isnt a bad thing. Some content is not supposed to be solo'ed
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