Ranger idea.

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Ranger idea.

Postby Invader_Nym » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:40 pm

I noticed recently kensai was given another attack without the use of haste.


Would it be possible to hack this code to give rangers additional off-hand attacks?

Would we want to?

Discuss-burgers with cheese.
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Re: Ranger idea.

Postby Scurvy Cur » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:14 am

The chief issues with ranger have nothing at all to do with their damage output. The class is slated for some tweaks, but I'm relatively certain this shouldn't be one of them.
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Re: Ranger idea.

Postby Cortex » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:15 am

Even if it was, doing it the same way it was done with kensai would only add a main hand attack.
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Re: Ranger idea.

Postby gilescorey » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:15 am

Scurvy Cur wrote:The chief issues with ranger have nothing at all to do with their damage output. The class is slated for some tweaks, but I'm relatively certain this shouldn't be one of them.
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Re: Ranger idea.

Postby Invader_Nym » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:13 pm

Scurvy Cur wrote:The chief issues with ranger have nothing at all to do with their damage output. The class is slated for some tweaks, but I'm relatively certain this shouldn't be one of them.


One of the chief issues is damage mitigation in my opinion. It seems to me ranger is in a bit of a pickle because if we give ranger a ton of AC without using a shield then builds bound to shields will have grounds to complain.

Extra off-hand attacks will have the net effect of damage mitigation because the ranger will take less hits if he finishes his enemy sooner, but the ranger will also have to suffer an AC penalty for dual-wielding.

I think right now the major problem for ranger, at least in terms of fighting style, is that the -2 AB and the -4 AC you suffer from not using a shield don't really seem like a fair trade-off for the off-hand damage. The only way I was able to get that off-hand damage to matter really is to get bane of enemies, epic weapon spec, and exotic weapons for a 1d10 offhand weapon (katana.) Even then I would say it's only right on the cusp of being a fair trade off.
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Re: Ranger idea.

Postby TimeAdept » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:38 pm

You could give dual weild focus rangers a bonus to their offhand damage equal to 1/2 their STR, letting them get full STR to both hands. <-- no clue how to implement this.

You could give a "Dynamic Slot" to rangers every 10 levels where a ranger could select a FE to change every so often, though i'm not sure if that's a direction the DM/Devs would want to encourage vs permanent choice favored enemies.

Perhaps Totem Rangers could get their own array of abilities, rather than the sort of half-measure it is now. Perhaps they get Awaken for their companions, allowing Totem Ranger to fill a niche as a companion/teamwork focused Path with the standard rangers having self focused dual weild/archer stuff. Maybe Totem Rangers can expand their Favored Enemy bonuses to their pets/summons?
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Re: Ranger idea.

Postby Invader_Nym » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:44 pm

Someone proposed a melee path whereby the animal companion is disabled in favor of AB/AC/Damage which I think is interesting except for the fact that current rangers won't be able to take it.

I like the totem ranger idea too.
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Re: Ranger idea.

Postby Scurvy Cur » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:01 pm

Before going into your arguments, I'd probably have to ask you if you're playing a dex-based ranger or a strength-based one (STRanger has always been the more solid approach of the two, and to date, has also received the most aid, especially in the form of runic ranger armor).

Invader_Nym wrote:I think right now the major problem for ranger, at least in terms of fighting style, is that the -2 AB and the -4 AC you suffer from not using a shield don't really seem like a fair trade-off for the off-hand damage. The only way I was able to get that off-hand damage to matter really is to get bane of enemies, epic weapon spec, and exotic weapons for a 1d10 offhand weapon (katana.) Even then I would say it's only right on the cusp of being a fair trade off.


I wanted to touch on your particular bit of theorycrafting here; this is definitely a viable approach, and I would say that all the good ranger builds currently involve a high amount of strength, Bane, EWS (or another source of reliable, non-sneak damage), and the flexibility to change between dual wield and sword and board options.

My own experience has been, on a strength based ranger, that the damage is in a perfectly fine spot against FEs (the issue that you don't have enough FEs to go around is a separate one, and is being looked at), and you usually have a reasonable amount of flexibility between a high-ac approach and a high-damage approach; for most builds, you aren't exclusively tied to one or the other. I know mine certainly goes sword and board when there's nobody to tank for him, and goes dw when there is. For his particular setup, I would be concerned with the consequences of his buffing AB, Damage, or APR.

There are still a couple of adjustments in the works which will benefit strength rangers, and most of them have to do with a slight defensive improvement, as well as some proposed utility buffs regarding double weapons. Additionally, some arguments are being made for strengthening ranger performance between 11 and 21, which in my experience was a really tedious time.

Dex rangers are a whole different animal, and in a much worse spot. Damage is always going to be a problem for them, and they don't pick up enough defense to make it worth not being strength based, usually. Buffs for dex based rangers have been discussed, but are currently stalled due to some unresolved concerns that giving them too much to work with will infringe on rogue. I've been arguing as forcefully as I can for a significant buff to dex rangers, but need to overcome those reservations first.
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Re: Ranger idea.

Postby Invader_Nym » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:52 pm

Another ranger idea is you could allow bladethirst to work on bundles of arrows to add piercing damage.
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Re: Ranger idea.

Postby StumpyParagon » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:30 pm

Dex rangers are a whole different animal, and in a much worse spot. Damage is always going to be a problem for them, and they don't pick up enough defense to make it worth not being strength based, usually. Buffs for dex based rangers have been discussed, but are currently stalled due to some unresolved concerns that giving them too much to work with will infringe on rogue. I've been arguing as forcefully as I can for a significant buff to dex rangers, but need to overcome those reservations first.


By all means I like the idea of being even stronger..

Im a dex ranger.. my damage is more than fine anyone who knows Drartha can likely agree with this...and as one.. my archery is on par with an arcane archer.. in fact potentionally higher.. I just can't penetrate wards... but hey that's the +5 blade thursts job.

I can ranged I can melee and I'm very hard to hit.. rangers need functionality changes like their pets.. have them as useful as shadow dancer ones based on type. And it aids with the majority of the issues people have mid levels.
Last edited by StumpyParagon on Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ranger idea.

Postby Invader_Nym » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:33 pm

What's your average damage vs a non-fe? :)
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Re: Ranger idea.

Postby StumpyParagon » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:39 pm

25 an arrow.. 19-25 a hit. Which Is fine fe 5+2d6 ontop.. that's more than most str chars... my ac is very high as all dex based chars are..

most compare his dm to weapon masters or fighters.. okay.

But I have 5 attacks with a bow before and 6 with dual wield both containing 2x high ab hits per round.

I mean sure im never going to say no to improvements just please don't take away my favoured enemies I've jnvested so many ranger levels for..

The pet is the way forward!
Last edited by StumpyParagon on Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ranger idea.

Postby Scurvy Cur » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:52 pm

Invader_Nym wrote:Another ranger idea is you could allow bladethirst to work on bundles of arrows to add piercing damage.


In the works already, to my knowledge. Removing the restriction on slashing only weapons should let the spell go on bundles. In turn this will make the archery path rangers less terrible.

StumpyParagon wrote:25 an arrow.. 19-25 a hit. Which Is fine fe 5+2d6 ontop.. that's more than most str chars... my ac is very.. high as all dex based chars are..


Alright, more important question.

What algorithm are you using to randomly distribute your use of the period and shift button?

In all seriousness, "most AA builds" aren't a great comparison. Most AA builds are garbage. The 2 or so that aren't should spike their arrow damage into the 30-40 range, depending on how lovingly they essence their arrows, so compare to those if you have to make a comparison.

In melee, averaging 22 damage a hit isn't really superb damage. Even when you get the FE bonus, you're still drastically underperforming any melee character worth his or her salt.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that you're stoked about the massive damage you feel like you're doing, but if we look at actual numbers in comparison to what other characters will manage, most other players feel that dex ranger damage is laughably bad, and I agree with them.
Last edited by Scurvy Cur on Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ranger idea.

Postby StumpyParagon » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:54 pm

Silly phone typing and Bobbing causes that.

I find you to be a very undermining person nor do I participate with such, so I see no further need to continue this and I'll trust the dms to listen to both sides opinions.

if a dm does wish for feed back regarding my performance and review of the ranger class I more than welcome and encourage a pm.
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Re: Ranger idea.

Postby Seven Sons of Sin » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:42 am

I'd love it if rangers (at a certain level) could ignore the "light offhand" mechanism, so they could dual wield whatever the hell they want at a -2/-2 penalty, and not the awful -4/-4.
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Re: Ranger idea.

Postby gilescorey » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:59 am

StumpyParagon wrote:Silly phone typing and Bobbing causes that.

I find you to be a very undermining person nor do I participate with such, so I see no further need to continue this and I'll trust the dms to listen to both sides opinions.

if a dm does wish for feed back regarding my performance and review of the ranger class I more than welcome and encourage a pm.

What exactly is he saying that's undermining? Is "actually the math doesn't line up with your assertion" some kind of awful, terrible thing that should never be said for fear it may undermine the random guesswork behind your (absolutely mathematically incorrect) thoughts that "19-25 is good damage."

This post is really confusing. Maybe I read it wrong?
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Re: Ranger idea.

Postby AnselHoenheim » Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:48 am

My personal experience with my ranger it's not that he lacks of damage, or AB, which I found it very nice, as we are talking of numbers like 50-60 damage and 100-110 crits against FE enemies, and about 49 AB against FE enemies, in exchange about 35-40 damage and 70-80 crits against non FE enemies, and about 45 AB against non FE enemies, this is the last time I checked, and, defensively, about 59 AC max, I find it, as I said very solid in terms of melee capability, however, where it lacks here is his companion, which, the one doesn't survive much to any round of enemies, but I blame this as I need to multiclass my ranger, so, the companion is weaker than it should be.

So, in conclusion, if there is something that the rangers needs desperately is a way better companion that is able to, at least, or turn the companion into a possible tank, capable of protect the ranger in case of DEX rangers, or, that you can auto-guard your own companion, and give it sneak attacks for dealing more damage.

Hopefully I have been able to help here some with my own experience!
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Re: Ranger idea.

Postby hoshi » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:38 am

AnselHoenheim wrote:or, that you can auto-guard your own companion


I'd love it if you could do this. A "-guard companion" option would be very nice for druid/ranger/sorcerer/wizard.
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Re: Ranger idea.

Postby Invader_Nym » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:49 am

If you made it exclusive to druid/ranger I'd love it to bits. It feels a bit like the ranger is cheated given that so many other classes get summons that are not only analogous to animal companions, but in many ways /better/ than animal companions.

You could sell it as the ranger/druid being able to work in tandem with their summons in a special way due to their unique bond with the animal. That's a really nice idea, actually.
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Re: Ranger idea.

Postby Ironsoul » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:26 pm

Interesting ideas, for my personal take -as I've mentioned elsewhere- I feel like rangers at this point really just need tweaks with their spell casting.

Rangers give up being weapon masters by being rangers. They're the best stealth characters and trackers and can do that better then anyone else.

I think giving them bladethirst on all weapons opens up more variety in their weapon choices and giving them double the spell slots would go a long way in opening up their utility. Tossing the odd bonus feat in as well will always help. Things like toughness or knockdown or even the entirety of the archer paths just to take some of the pressure off of folks to open up more variety in builds so not all rangers look the same in play.

It won't turn any heads but that's okay I think. All of the other builds still exist.

Also I know we all want to have our animal buddies be right along side us in the field but I just don't think that's the answer - I can't think of a single time another character has brought a summon into this world where I went "wow my gameplay experience improved because of this" they're just awkward to control and either get you in trouble, frustrate you, or at worst watch something played by no one play the game for you. My two cents!
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Re: Ranger idea.

Postby RamblerTeo » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:52 pm

just reverse the damn animal companions back to godmode
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