Update - Raising the dead

[Hunter548]

I actually like subdual being restricted, but if you want to open it up, give it a greater percentage chance to to fail with weapons outside of the current restrictions. Or have those weapons be penalize and remove the penalty with the ones that are currently allowed.

The problem with this is that the current weapons don't make much sense. Knives? Pole-axes? Spiked clubs meant to punch through armored plates and skulls? How are any of those less lethal than hitting someone with the flat of the blade, or something similar?

[susitsu]

Warlocks with maxed out con and EDR are already able to survive a heavy onslaught from a weapon master. If there's any characters I could see still clinging to life with their head barely attached, it would be them.

But there is no way in the world someone is going to subdue a conlock in the current system.

[Lady of Memes]

Gonna be honest. I dislike this update. It makes it a pain to hunt in parties or to hunt any epic places period. It encourages circle-grinders. Because they don't get killed. Because they know what they're doing. This literally punishes people who don't- or make silly mistakes. Not to mention- it is immersion breaking. Literally had a character that was a corellon follower praying at an umberlee sacrificial altar three times just to raise my trip companions for this. It's- ridiculous. It's not a facilitater of rp, It think it ends it in some ways. Of course, there's many arguments for and against this opinion. This is just how I feel about it. I prefer 20 minutes to this.
The /only/ good part to this change, in my opinion, is that it makes death more finite. Even then- people can just respawn and not care.

[This is not for you.]

Can we expect a fix to this? If I wanted to play Ravenloft, I'd download the hakpak and go there. I play Arelith because it's fun and caters to my needs that go from casual play in the evenings to super intensive 18hr sessions. I play Arelith because I enjoy the experience of adventuring and having new experiences and stories, not dragging my buddy back to the hub to do the same ritual of grinding piety up or finding someone to fix them.

If we need a conclusive list of reasons why this is not a fun idea;
+dead NPCs
+having to actually pvp kill someone, but then having no real reliable way to raise them in a jail/etc for more rp afterwards
+appeals only to the RP purists, punishes casual players and new players unfamiliar with P.V.E
+WAY too expensive, both piety/cost wise for clerics
+fails to do it's job, make death taken seriously by the player base


I've noticed the big response to most of these is 'Yeah but this is like a table top game now!" Table top games take multiple 5hr+sessions over the course of months. They are overseen by a DM who will constantly be tailoring the quest to you and your friends in particular to make sure you are having a good time. Arelith is a persistent role play server with mild RPG influence (see dungeon crawling, grinding for mechanical progression). Arelith, is, not, pen and paper. Or table top. It is not sunday night nerd night with the goons. Those mechanics do not support the persistent world setting.

tl;dr please re-evaluate death changes.

[One Two Three Five]

appeals only to the RP purists, punishes casual players and new players unfamiliar with P.V.E

The new respawn penalty is barely any xp and like, 20 minutes of stat penalties. That's nothing. Respawn and keep rolling.

t is not sunday night nerd night with the goons

thats debateable

[This is not for you.]

....

Respawning instead feels even more cheesey then just being raised by your buddies, which directs me back to "+fails to make death be taken seriously". *I need to edit this, because I don't think I expressed enough how really bad I think it is to respawn. That's a very inorganic way to return to the role play. 'ha ha i know i was a corpse a few minutes ago but I got better!' is really lame and clunky.

Sorry, standing by this. I think this needs to be re-evaluated and adjusted. My opinion will not be swayed, but I understand I am but a pleb. I will endure and move on like everyone else. But gosh darn it I will not be happy about it!

[Rwby]

Can we expect a fix to this?
If we need a conclusive list of reasons why this is not a fun idea;
+dead NPCs
+having to actually pvp kill someone, but then having no real reliable way to raise them in a jail/etc for more rp afterwards
+appeals only to the RP purists, punishes casual players and new players unfamiliar with P.V.E
+WAY too expensive, both piety/cost wise for clerics
+fails to do it's job, make death taken seriously by the player base

tl;dr please re-evaluate death changes.

Dead NPCs -
The Admins have already noted that the DMs will happily raise unimportant NPCs free of charge from now on, either by just idly doing it when no-ones looking, or through roleplay. That actually makes it easier to raise them, not harder!
And you know. They're _dead_.

Can't arrest PCs-
You can raise them in a temple and escort them to the jail. They can't engage in PvP with you for 24 hours anyway, so they're not going to attack you on sight. And if they were going to cheese their way out of it/refuse to roleplay, would you even want to raise them in the jail anyway?

Appeals only to RP Purists/Punishes casuals.
I dunno. I'm an RP Purist and a casual. It's all good by me?

Way too Expensive -
That was the point, though. If it wasn't expensive, there wouldn't even have been an update. The idea is to make the cost prohibitive to restrict its use, inspiring more cleric based RP and making players more cautious of death.

Fails to do its job -
I know you don't like it. But there have been an awful lot of posative comments made by not me to entirely discount that this update is bad. I also think it's super soon to be saying it's failed, and that unless you're an Admin/DM you probably don't have the birds eye view of the playerbase to figure out what the real effects are.

[Trunx]

Can't arrest PCs-
You can raise them in a temple and escort them to the jail. They can't engage in PvP with you for 24 hours anyway, so they're not going to attack you on sight.

They can engage in PvP if you raise them, though.

[Shadowy Reality]

Can't arrest PCs-
You can raise them in a temple and escort them to the jail. They can't engage in PvP with you for 24 hours anyway, so they're not going to attack you on sight.

They can engage in PvP if you raise them, though.

Are you certain? I always thought interactions could be made of both agreed, but never PvP.

Also, killing someone and raising them in jail is cheap and proves you don't give a damn. If you didn't put the effort in trying to capture me and instead went for a kick kill why should I bother to RP with you? It doesn't even make sense, you either want someone in jail or you want someone dead, not both.

[Rwby]

They can't, no. You can agree to raise them, but you'd have to make a seperate agreement to engage in further PvP. Otherwise this would clearly be a reportable offence, and frankly, no fun either.


Edit - Yes, I''ve also waged a tiredless war against the following -

Guard - Aha ha! It's Sirus Black, the Prisoner of Askaban! Slay him, he's a Banite!
Junior Guard - Okay! [Slays Sirus]
Guard - Excellent. Now take him back to the jail cells so we can raise him.
Junior Guard - But he's an evil murderer. Why would we want him to be alive again?
Guard - So he can pay for his crimes! We need to jail him for a tenday. Or fine him! Yes, let's raise him and fine him!
Junior Guard- But we just spent money on that raise scroll.
Guard - Shut up Mokuba!

[Trunx]

If you agree to further interaction, you also agree to further PvP. That's how it's always been. And it makes raising people in a temple and then escorting them to a jail tricky. On the other hand, if you can't trust the other person to play along, you may be better served to not continue the RP.

[Rabbid]

Guard - Shut up Mokuba!

Kudos for the Yu-Gi-Oh quote.

[Nitro]

They can't, no. You can agree to raise them, but you'd have to make a seperate agreement to engage in further PvP. Otherwise this would clearly be a reportable offence, and frankly, no fun either.

The last time this was brought up on the forums, this was the DM answer:

If you agree to a raise you are voluntarily waving the 24 hour rule.

Edit just to be specific..

If you agree to a raise from the person that PVP'd you, then yes you are waving the 24 hour rule.
If you are raised by someone not involved and the person whom you were in PVP with has departed, then the 24 hour rule comes into effect.

So yes, if both parties waive the 24 hour rule, that also include PvP.

[Rwby]

Well shoot.
I guess rulings arn't common sense after all.

[kittenblackfriends]

Since scrolls are no longer a thing, can we ping DMs to raise (unimportant) NPCs if they're killed?

Yes, you can.

[Diilicious]

*rolls eyes* DM's are not always online.

[Rwby]

But they will be eventually, and they can raise the NPC then. Or a PC Cleric can.
Or the NPC stays dead.
Which seems pretty realistic.

[One Two Three Five]

Even if it stays dead it doesn't seem like a suuuuper compelling reason to negate this?
Edit: Oh, wait, I've got an idea.

[susitsu]

...I'm not sure how the rules get so misconstrued on this server.

[Queen Titania]

I've no problem raising dead NPC's, specifically the ones that die everyday. (Old man of Cordor, caravan Oxen)

[This is not for you.]

I love the DM team, but if its 3am some wacky time zone and no one is online, and Laurik is dead or an important merchant is dead, then I guess I just, move on? I also understand the Team are volunteers who are not on 24/7 and there are periods where DMs are just impossible to find at all. I'm thinking long term here, not while things are considerably excellent.

To respond to the idea of 'why would you raise some evil duder you just pk'd anyway', that's because it would be nice of you, as a player, to provide the fellow player you just murked with more role play opportunities. Even if you think he'd be a cheese ball about it, it's still a nice thing to do and is often very appreciated. Be kind to your fellow players.

Response to cleric-based RP more important; yes but now it's TOO important. I think it's in general a bad idea to make any one class super necessary for so many people. I don't think raising a dead character should have to go through the same hoops as trying to find an art crafter to polish your gems so you can make an essence. 'But RP!' doesn't make the guy whose dead and hoping someone is online to raise them feel any better while they are by themselves in essentially time-out from all the fun.

Then you say but then more people will play clerics! I'm not seeing how this is a good thing. I'll put that up to a 'okay'. Does not resolve issue of someone not being online when you're online. Does not resolve the issue of you not knowing someone ic right away. Does not resolve the issue of having to respawn and say 'haha i was a corpse and you were all worried but I'm fine now!' (this directly effects death being taken seriously)

I will die on this hill.

[gilescorey]

I have to concur at least partially with TINFY - the update has made a very good job of making RAISING people very difficult and not something to be done just lightly, unless I suppose you're a cleric - and that's great, if that's the way the developers want to take the server I don't have any personal problems with a more "hard-core" Arelith.

However, actual death or respawning is easier than ever before. There's effectively no penalty for dying, and a pretty minor one for respawning compared to the 20-minute death penalties of just before, and the older big-fat-XP penalties.

I don't like respawning. It's difficult to explain it in a believable way IC beyond "my deity brought me back to life =)" which feels cheesy and forced. But sometimes you just have to respawn; either you rolled 1 against a death spell while solo in a dungeon, or some guy gave you the oneline implosion death.

The issue is people who take respawning as an IC guarantee or an easy way out of having to RP loss in conflict, which it probably shouldn't be. Then the question is: is that a mechanics problem, a policy problem, or on the shoulders of players to fix? I don't know the answer, and won't pretend to.

[Yma23]

I don't care about the xp perspective, from a roleplay perspective this still sucks. I don't care about how much or little xp you loose when respawning. The point is that unless your group has either a cleric, or an epic mage with Conjouration, you're either going to have to put up with a super long, dull wait whilst you're party drag you to an altar, or you're just going to respawn. This does not sound fun to me. This sounds the opposite of fun. This sounds bloody miserable.

[Giftstoff]

I don't care about the xp perspective, from a roleplay perspective this still sucks. I don't care about how much or little xp you loose when respawning. The point is that unless your group has either a cleric, or an epic mage with Conjouration, you're either going to have to put up with a super long, dull wait whilst you're party drag you to an altar, or you're just going to respawn. This does not sound fun to me. This sounds the opposite of fun. This sounds bloody miserable.

Every adventure is not going to end in flowery success where everyone lives. You seem far too caught up on "Well what if something bad happens, then its going to inconvenience me."

Before, death was beyond trivial. 3 people die in a bad fight, and you walk along and read a 1k gp scroll over them and that was the end of it. Now this will have far more meaning.

You may also prepare well for your adventures to focus on NOT dying, if this is just such an annoyance.

[susitsu]

I don't care about the xp perspective, from a roleplay perspective this still sucks. I don't care about how much or little xp you loose when respawning. The point is that unless your group has either a cleric, or an epic mage with Conjouration, you're either going to have to put up with a super long, dull wait whilst you're party drag you to an altar, or you're just going to respawn. This does not sound fun to me. This sounds the opposite of fun. This sounds bloody miserable.

Every adventure is not going to end in flowery success where everyone lives. You seem far too caught up on "Well what if something bad happens, then its going to inconvenience me."

Before, death was beyond trivial. 3 people die in a bad fight, and you walk along and read a 1k gp scroll over them and that was the end of it. Now this will have far more meaning.

You may also prepare well for your adventures to focus on NOT dying, if this is just such an annoyance.

okay, so

you're taking what yma said out of context. stop that. you're also wrong. respawning is ez, dying on a trip without a cleric is the equivalent of having your body bashed basically and all it does is kick you out of the xp and rp, and the raise scroll thing fixes nothing and only creates more problems.

I personally only have so much time to play on my work days and I will change characters and leave that one in the death area sooner than wait twenty minutes to be rezzed because I'm on here to enjoy myself.