Feylock Feedback

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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby Nyuunie » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:58 pm

JediMindTrix wrote:Increase the duration of Displacement for warlocks. That'd be better than II.


Extend Spell is already a thing.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby JediMindTrix » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:33 pm

Nyuunie wrote:Extend Spell is already a thing.


DUDE THANKS i forgot
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby susitsu » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:43 pm

Can you give them shadow shield? That's a sorc/wiz 7th level spell. Won't it just be a disgustingly easy to dispel and short duration? I suppose if it's a spammable special ability that doesn't exactly matter...
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby One Two Three Five » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:45 pm

Should be tweakable with scripting, I bet? And yeah dispelling a warlock isn't the... best? way to deal with them.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby susitsu » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:48 pm

Generally speaking, getting your buffs wiped is pretty bad news for anyone. I find the argument that "it'll just get recast next round" pretty weak.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby One Two Three Five » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:52 pm

Oh well, I guess. The other radial spells seem to scale, as far as I know.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby AllTheWorld » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:53 pm

The next round they need to make a choice about what will be recast. Stripping buffs hurts everyone.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby gilescorey » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:54 pm

Dispelling a warlock is like dispelling a mundane: it's extremely hard to do as anything but an abjurer, and even then it's not a guarantee.

Especially since a well built warlock could have arcane defence abjuration, which makes it even harder.

You can breach a warlock, sure, but unless you're a caster (thus with more thoroughly limited amounts of breaching) you won't breach as fast as he can slap back up whatever you've breached.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby susitsu » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:56 pm

I thought I saw mention in some thread about spells maxing out at CL 15 for some things? Though that might have been about weave master, not the spell special abilities.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby Wytchee » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:57 pm

susitsu wrote:I thought I saw mention in some thread about spells maxing out at CL 15 for some things? Though that might have been about weave master, not the spell special abilities.


The infinite spells granted by GSF cap out at CL 15.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby Hunter548 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:05 am

susitsu wrote:Can you give them shadow shield? That's a sorc/wiz 7th level spell. Won't it just be a disgustingly easy to dispel and short duration? I suppose if it's a spammable special ability that doesn't exactly matter...

I mean, you could but I dunno why you'd want to. They already have the dr fron EDR, the ac is kind of irrelevant when their ac is bad to begin with, the concealment is worse than displacement .. sure, the negative energy protection elements are nice but NEP potions are pretty common. Seems very underwhelming as a capstone.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby susitsu » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:15 am

Defer to the big post by Scholar Midnight on page 4 with the new recommendations for spells if you're thinking that I'm making a suggestion here, Hunter.

Regardless, you make some good points. But in the case of a non-EDR Feylock, it would help.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby Wytchee » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:16 am

Hunter548 wrote:I mean, you could but I dunno why you'd want to. They already have the dr fron EDR, the ac is kind of irrelevant when their ac is bad to begin with, the concealment is worse than displacement .. sure, the negative energy protection elements are nice but NEP potions are pretty common. Seems very underwhelming as a capstone.


The idea is to move away from conlocks being the standard, at least as far as fey-pact warlocks are concerned. If we go this route, most fey-pact warlocks would be cha-focused and play a party/trickster role, and hence not have EDR. Shadow Shield also grants +5 natural AC and immunity to necromancy spells and instant-death effects in addition to its NEP.

Also, fey-pact warlock AC isn't bad at all. It can hit the mid-40s. With SS it hits near 50.

Base 11 (assuming 13 dex)
+ 6 mithril chain (armor)
+ 5 mithril tower shield (shield)
+ 5 shadow shield (natural)
+ 1 boots (dodge)
+ 1 mage armor (dodge)
+ 4 shield wand (deflection)
+ 4 haste (other)
+ 6 tumble
+ 1 dex skleen
+ 2 armor skin
+ 2 cat's grace wand (roll of 3 or more)
= 48, add in 20% effective physical DR and Displacement and you're as tanky as a trickery cleric.
Last edited by Wytchee on Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:38 am, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby One Two Three Five » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:21 am

That last one helps mitigate not being con-based, too. I prefer it the 'new' way, with changes listed? And people that like the old warlock setup aren't left out in the cold, since fiendlocks can still go huge tank.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby susitsu » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:46 am

I'd really like to see a real capability for an effective 27/3 bg dip fiendlock, still. Imho, these changes completely eliminated that already inferior build.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby Stath » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:09 am

Wytchee wrote:
Also, fey-pact warlock AC isn't bad at all. It can hit the mid-40s. With SS it hits near 50.


This is barely enough ac to avoid getting shot by malarites in a low teens dungeon.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby JediMindTrix » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:17 am

gilescorey wrote:Dispelling a warlock is like dispelling a mundane: it's extremely hard to do as anything but an abjurer, and even then it's not a guarantee.


If they take spell defense: abj doesn't that make each dispel roll only a 5% chance of succeeding?
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby Wytchee » Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:06 am

Stath wrote:
Wytchee wrote:
Also, fey-pact warlock AC isn't bad at all. It can hit the mid-40s. With SS it hits near 50.


This is barely enough ac to avoid getting shot by malarites in a low teens dungeon.


My fire elemental has 41 AC and even the black orcs have trouble hitting it with 50% concealment.

It's not meant to make you invulnerable. 50 AC is more than enough for sustainability.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby gilescorey » Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:27 am

JediMindTrix wrote:
gilescorey wrote:Dispelling a warlock is like dispelling a mundane: it's extremely hard to do as anything but an abjurer, and even then it's not a guarantee.


If they take spell defense: abj doesn't that make each dispel roll only a 5% chance of succeeding?

It would depend a very great deal upon who exactly is dispelling. From a caster-with-GSF:abj, yes. From anyone else, no.

The dispel formula is:
1d20 + dispel's caster level vs. 12 + creator's effective level.


So here is this, which is a list of various dispels versus a level 30 arcane defence caster (either a meme mage with no disc, a mage/harper, or a warlock). Keep in mind both Mordekainen's Disjunction and Greater Dispelling are capped at CL 20.

30 Caster Level with Arcane Defence: Abjuration
(No Abjuration) 1d20 + 20 vs. 12 + 32 + 2 (44) = 0% chance
(Greater Abjuration) 1d20 + 24 vs. 12 + 32 + 2 (44) = 5% chance
(Epic Abjuration) 1d20 + 26 vs. 12 + 32 + 2 (44) = 15% chance

Exact math is here. Also included is how dispel would work versus various other common CLs, albeit in a strange and lengthy format. At least it's easy to understand. Hopefully.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby susitsu » Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:30 am

but CJ...

what about on a shadow shield of caster level 15
Last edited by susitsu on Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby Scholar Midnight » Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:37 am

susitsu wrote:Can you give them shadow shield? That's a sorc/wiz 7th level spell. Won't it just be a disgustingly easy to dispel and short duration? I suppose if it's a spammable special ability that doesn't exactly matter...


I don't think innate spells are capped at CL 15. The duration for my shadows during testing was definitely 30 rounds and the summons were scaled correctly which is consistent with what I'd expect from a CL30 character casting the spell. Where did you get the idea that it was capped at CL 15?
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby Peppermint » Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:44 am

They are capped at CL 15.

You can script around that to give them a longer duration etc., but with respect to hard-coded attributes (e.g. spell resistance) they are capped at CL 15.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby RamblerTeo » Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:44 am

Wytchee wrote:Also, fey-pact warlock AC isn't bad at all. It can hit the mid-40s. With SS it hits near 50.



that's bad, no joke. most builds get mid 40s AB.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby OverTheSeaToSkye » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:07 pm

RamblerTeo wrote:
Wytchee wrote:Also, fey-pact warlock AC isn't bad at all. It can hit the mid-40s. With SS it hits near 50.



that's bad, no joke. most builds get mid 40s AB.


And if you aren't able to rely on your magic for defense you have to be able to rely on it for offense. That's not the case anymore from what I'm seeing.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby Scholar Midnight » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:23 pm

Peppermint wrote:They are capped at CL 15.

You can script around that to give them a longer duration etc., but with respect to hard-coded attributes (e.g. spell resistance) they are capped at CL 15.


Okay, I can see that now. I'm going to uncap that in the engine so that spell like abilities can exceed CL 15.
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