Feylock Feedback

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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby DirtyDeity » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:04 am

My definition of dead is being nerfed from "high tier" to "trash tier". Feylocks were never god tier.

I've played a Feylock for the last couple of months, and had my share of pvm and pvp.

A feylock as it were was hard-pressed to defeat a weaponmaster, a divine-shield build, any monk, and fighting a decent cleric would be an even fight.

I'm very willing to elaborate on this if you're interested, but I prefer not to do it in a public forum. If you're interested in it at all, send me a PM?
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby Scholar Midnight » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:25 am

DirtyDeity wrote:My definition of dead is being nerfed from "high tier" to "trash tier". Feylocks were never god tier.

I've played a Feylock for the last couple of months, and had my share of pvm and pvp.

A feylock as it were was hard-pressed to defeat a weaponmaster, a divine-shield build, any monk, and fighting a decent cleric would be an even fight.


You listed a couple of classes here that they have difficulty against, but what about the many classes that they could destroy without breaking a sweat? Their insane ability to kite? And we can't discuss only their strength in 1v1 match ups. It's also important to discuss their utility in a group when considering how powerful they were. The ability to bring unlimited haste to a group was simply absurd in both PvE and PvP.

It's also important to remember that we can't balance solely for PvP. I've read many people stating that feylocks who build CHA are useless because saves are too high to reliably penetrate without ESF: enchantment. I have had the opposite experience. I recently played with a CHA-based feylock from 1 to 30. In our duo group we were able to hold almost every creature reliably in almost every dungeon we ventured to. There were exceptions of course, but DCs were never an issue for us. Feylocks really trivialised any PvE content except where mobs possessed immunity to being held. Our play really became "watch the str WM whack the held mobs".

I should add that it wasn't my idea to nerf feylocks, and I have a vested interest in the class remaining decent, given that I play one. In fact, the original proposal had haste removed from their toolkit entirely: thankfully I was able to insist it was added back in. The developer who made these changes has since stepped back, so it falls onto me to fix the few niggles that remain. I do, however, think that the state of affairs is being wildly exaggerated in this thread. Feylocks can do everything they did before, now, while doing less damage if they spam hold spells, and losing the ability to infinitely confer two of the most powerful buffs in the game to their entire party.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby Durvayas » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:36 am

A human feylock might have had trouble with weaponmasters, a drow one does not. Drow SR eliminates the vast majority of threat UMD poses to a warlock in solo combat. A human might get a bonus feat, but insofar as being resilient to most UMD counters, the drow is better.

Right now, eliminating WW would shift feylocks from being better ranged barbarians to more in line with their supposedly intended disabler niche. Shades would be thematic and a good replacement.

Playing a weaponmaster myself, Feylocks as an opponent have gone from 'well crap I don't have a chance in hell' to 'This will be tricky but I could win'. I'm understandably pleased with the new ability to not be utterly roflstomped so easily. People don't like change, and I know you aren't pleased with your class getting a well needed nerf, but this is a win in both the fight against power creep and also balance. There are not a lot of builds that matched Feylock for power, but they all had to give something up to get there.

Dragonshapers were bad until they got their dragonshape. TF sorcs are absolutely terrible magi that pump out nothing but raw damage with almost no utility. Barbarians are extremely susceptible to ranged attacks, DDs can't move, etc etc etc. Feylock had everything a class could need to be immensely powerful with no drawbacks at all. It was only a matter of time before they got hit with the nerf bat.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby DirtyDeity » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:44 am

Mass haste is irrelevant in PvP and so is Improved Invisibility. This is something every person can take care of himself with wands. This is not the strength feylocks had for themselves. And I don't even care that Haste was limited to Self-Cast. I don't even use Improved Invisibility in PvP since Displacement is superior.

You nerf the DPS feylocks have on all their decent CC spells and Dispels, but then they have NO other sources of damage. Warlocks meanwhile could spam their dispels for lower DPS while a big Snuggybear balor is chomping down on their enemies, or destroy them in moments with blast-enhanced ice storms.

However in a fight, you can't afford to spam dispels or CC spells to 'kite' anymore. Because you do nearly no damage when you do so. You simply can't afford to do it.

I for one agree that changes to make Feylock more 'support' oriented would be a grace. I made my character with the intentnion of playing a support. But this change DESTROYS all usefulness in a group, AND destroys all 1v1 potential. Instead of speccing the class to do one of the other, it's simply being shot into the ground.

I can only argue the reconsideration. I know that I will make do either way, and in the worst case I'll re-roll my character. It's just a shame to see a fun class go.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby DirtyDeity » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:48 am

Durvayas wrote:A human feylock might have had trouble with weaponmasters, a drow one does not. Drow SR eliminates the vast majority of threat UMD poses to a warlock in solo combat. A human might get a bonus feat, but insofar as being resilient to most UMD counters, the drow is better.



I've fought a friend of mine in the arena in a serious 1v1, feylock vs weaponmaster, and I could not win a single fight on Aunilarra.

You have to take game skill, gear, and available UMD into consideration. Just because Silence Wands and Word of Faith doesn't work on Drow, doesn't mean that you can't win.

Feylocks had many defined weaknesses and many defined strength. Now they have a lot of weaknesses, and nothing good in their kit other than Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Haste, and Displacement. (Considering Wounding Whispers is indeed going to be removed)
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby One Two Three Five » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:51 am

Wounding whispers was a bad idea. It was a continuation of warlocks being able to just casually stomp into every other classes niche with minimum risk or effort.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby DirtyDeity » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:53 am

One Two Three Five wrote:Wounding whispers was a bad idea. It was a continuation of warlocks being able to just casually stomp into every other classes niche with minimum risk or effort.


100% agreed. And I think everyone agrees on that. But if nothing is given back when Wounding Whispers is taken away, this is a sinking ship.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby One Two Three Five » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:55 am

Scholar Midnight wrote:Removing wounding whispers for feylocks. [we haven't decided what to replace it with, so suggestions are welcome - maybe we should replace it with imp invis?]

well there's your chance
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby Seekeepeek » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:09 am

Scholar Midnight wrote:
Removing wounding whispers for feylocks. [we haven't decided what to replace it with, so suggestions are welcome - maybe we should replace it with imp invis?]

The Keen Edge spell and change it to make keen edge add 1d4 massive critical as a temporary effect on any weapon regardless of the weapon's enchantments. (arelith version of keen edge is pretty useless and unused at the moment)
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby DirtyDeity » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:20 am

It's really hard to say at this point.

The only option that I see is to swap the skillset entirely to make Feylocks more party/support oriented.

But that is a change vast enough that I could not put it in all up in a suggestion post on the forums, and I'm not part of the creative process.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby kittenblackfriends » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:39 am

A class that is supposed to be exiled/hated/etc should never be delegated to a support role. They should be able to function on their own, and feylocks don't even have summons to fall back on.

Let's see...if WW is getting removed...are we not concerned about the circle of spell we replace it with? If so, I'm all for Ethereal Visage - after all, the pixie form of Polymorph Self is immune to C3 and under, and it makes sense to me that feylocks have that kind of immunity.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby Trunx » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:44 am

Mass Haste was extremely useful in pvp. Yes, people can use a haste wand, but that's a one round action for 10 rounds of haste, so effectively 9 rounds of haste, compared to 60 rounds. Having your haste run out in the middle of PvP is a big deal, too.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby Durvayas » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:00 pm

Being that they are in fact fey pacted... Perhaps a spell that summons several pixies(grigs) at once. They have sneak attacks, and their numbers, combined with crippling strike, would make them an issue, if they were appropriately strong enough.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby Rwby » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:02 pm

I'm not sure a Feypacted warlock, whom serves the Fey, should be able to summon expendable Fey to die for them.
It'd pretty much be the other way around.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby DirtyDeity » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:03 pm

Durvayas wrote:Being that they are in fact fey pacted... Perhaps a spell that summons several pixies(grigs) at once. They have sneak attacks, and their numbers, combined with crippling strike, would make them an issue, if they were appropriately strong enough.


That would be an issue considering that Evil Fey are an assortment of creatures, including hags, banshees, etc. Not just pixies.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby kittenblackfriends » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:20 pm

Actually, it makes perfect sense. As I said earlier, fey have very little regard for life. They're selfish, petty, and absorbed with what they deem as beautiful (which may not mesh with your aesthetics!).

Also, see the number of pixies who die to bad wizards (like myself). :D

Don't see it as summoning them to die. See it as summoning them to cause mischief :twisted:
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby AllTheWorld » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:38 pm

I have a few suggestions that would be taken together to potentially solve most concerns here, these assume the current state of Feylock:

- Hold Person and Charm Monster Swap.
- Replace Cure Minor Wounds with Cure Light Wounds.
- Replace Cure Light Wounds with Improved Invisibility.
- Replace Clairvoyance/Clairaudience with Legend Lore.
- Replace Wounding Whispers with Healing Circle.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby Rwby » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:38 pm

But they're being summoned. By you. You are bound to their service. You shouldn't be able to summon them to fight for you. Fey don't want to die in the service of mortals, and they're not bound to, either.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby Song of Storms » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:47 pm

To be fair they don't really die on the mortal plane. They just go back where they came from.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby Durvayas » Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:07 pm

AllTheWorld wrote:I have a few suggestions that would be taken together to potentially solve most concerns here, these assume the current state of Feylock:

- Hold Person and Charm Monster Swap.
- Replace Cure Minor Wounds with Cure Light Wounds.
- Replace Cure Light Wounds with Improved Invisibility.
- Replace Clairvoyance/Clairaudience with Legend Lore.
- Replace Wounding Whispers with Healing Circle.


Giving feylocks infinite healing circle would make them better healers than healer path clerics. I'm all for making them better at being support, but healer seems out of place, given the fickle, casually cruel nature of the fey.

As for summoning pixies. Easily roleplayed as them being expendable minions of your pact holder who is helping you out, which is clearly a powerful creature, unlike these mere pixie mooks.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby AllTheWorld » Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:10 pm

Better than Wounding Whispers or Etheral Visage though, right? Maybe the spell could work like vanilla instead of current way.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby Scholar Midnight » Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:16 pm

Here's what we're thinking for the proposed changes. I'm brainstorming a bit in this thread because I want to get things right. Unless there's any pressing observations in this thread about how these changes will butcher the class (or make it ridiculously OP), we'll go ahead with them as soon I find the time to code them up.

This allows fiendlocks to keep their niche as "tanky DR CON-dumps" and reestablishes feylocks as trickster disablers who can provide some utility to their party.

Feylock

Feylocks will have 24 hours from first login after this change to type -relevel, which will refund all levels to the character to take again. Dramatic character changes (warlock one day, fighter the next) are not allowed and will be monitored. Base stat modifications are not possible without contacting a DM (which you may do if you desire).

Level 10: Uncanny Doodge, +5/-DR vs Cold/Electrical
Level 20: +1 to CHA spell DCs, +5/- DR vs Cold/Electrical [+10 total]
Level 30: +1 to CHA spell DCs [+2 total], +10 /- DR vs Cold/Electrical [+20 total]

- Cure Minor Windows (5) -> Cure Light Wounds
- Gust of Wind (11) -> Hold Person
- Haste (12): Infini-haste on self, cooldown-based haste on others, only one haste allowed active on others at a time.
- Hold Person (13) -> Summon Shades
- Dominate person (17) -> Improved Invisibility
- Cure Light Wounds (19) -> Dominate Person
- Wounding Whispers (28) -> Shadow Shield
- Summon Doppleganger (30): Summon an exact copy (in terms of appearance) of your target once per day, which is of a reasonably balanced power level, mostly likely equivalent or slightly weaker to the vampire count summonable by mummy dust. It won't solo dungeons for you but it will help. You can talk through the doppleganger and control it with the associate tool.

Addendum: We're considering a special feylock-only form of concealment which provides a better % miss chance than concealment if a will save is failed. In that case, concealment would be replaced by that shield, and improved invis would go again.

Fiendlock

- Invisibility (10) -> N/A
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby Durvayas » Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:17 pm

What about invisibility sphere? That's a party support utilitarian spell.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby AllTheWorld » Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:19 pm

That doppelgänger thing sounds awesome! The rest looks pretty cool.
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Re: Feylock Feedback

Postby One Two Three Five » Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:25 pm

That is super awesome!, how solid is this? Are the shades the ones from the spell, modified by CHA and illusion focus?

The only issue I have is with, uh, the 'charm' spells? They don't work. At all.

All that said I like that the two types of warlocks will have noticeably different setups now. Also, that doppleganger though. Love that doppleganger though. Beyond the charm spell thing, the only issue I see is people who really wanted to be a tanky feylock, but I do like that they're actually supporty tricksters with this setup. (With an ESF-esque DC boost!)
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