Feudal Stuff (Guldorand):

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Mr_Rieper
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Feudal Stuff (Guldorand):

Post by Mr_Rieper » Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:18 pm

Disclaimer: I am aware that not all of this will be historically accurate. There were many feudal systems in place in many different countries over the course of their history, and trying to be totally faithful to this is an utter burden for all of us as players. Just as fantasy must respect realism, we must also respect that this is a fantasy world where we can make our own stuff up. If anything I've written here is glaringly and outright false, feel free to gently correct.

Historically, what constitutes a Duchy or a Kingdom is entirely up to what common consensus was, they played by their own rules so to speak.

FAQ:

(Use the Ctrl+F function to find them)
  • Why the Feudal system?
  • [II] List of ranks used
  • [III] The Marquis, Emperor & Knight
  • [IV] The Baron (and the Peasant)
  • [V] The Count
  • [VI] The Duke
  • [VII] The King
  • [VIII] The Manor or Keep
  • [IX] Courtiers and Retainers
  • [X] Commonly used terms or phrases


Why the Feudal system?

Now, to begin, many people may not fully understand what the point of having a monarchy or aristocracy is. Some people may have partial knowledge on it, and have formed strong opinions on this knowledge which carry over into their RP. I'm here to set the story straight as much as I can. I will outright state that the intention of having the north eastern corner of Arelith adopt a different system to the rest of the Isle was totally intentional, so that players could enjoy a different style of politics elsewhere. If you're looking to gain an insight into why and what, look no further.

A common belief regarding aristocracy which has been perpetrated by Hollywood movies is that the system was always oppressive and tyrannical. Some extreme cases of this have shown nobility to be whiny, arrogant, wasteful and entitled - and this is the reason why many people breathe a sigh of relief that the system is gone. Having an upper class of society which is privileged over the "lesser" classes is the cause of anger in a lot of people, even today. However it's important to note two things: The first being that the noble system served a very practical purpose. At the time, it was useful and is responsible for a lot of things we take for granted in western society. The system it replaced could never have taken us as far as feudalism did. The second thing to note is the reason why titles were passed from parents to children. As an example, if a child's father was a stonemason, they would likely gain intimate knowledge of the craft from their father, even through simply watching him work. The same is true from a noble father, who was skilled and educated in statecraft, diplomacy, handling money and leading a particular group of people. The child of a king would, in most cases, be a better leader than the child of a cobbler or blacksmith.

Over time, the original meanings of these things were forgotten, and people grew lazy and entitled, just as our old friend Polybius wrote (Seriously, google this sometime), which why we have many of the tropes we have today. However, at the time, the system was effective. Land was used effectively for farming, people knew where they stood as order was introduced into society, cities grew, kingdoms flourished, empires were built. The noble class were educated and skilled administrators and taught their children to be the same.

So!

Now that we've gotten the "why" part out of the way, let's get to the "what". For this bit, many people will recognise that I'm borrowing from the game Crusader Kings II. My reasons for this is because the game makes it remarkably simple whereas history makes it very complicated. For the purposes of Arelith, a simple system is better.

I will be using this fan-made map of Tethyr as reference for this guide, as Tethyr also follows an Absolute Monarchy system that has just recently been adopted in Guldorand, as well as the larger Skull Crags as a whole.


(Credit to the VTLCampaign guys)

[II] List of ranks used

Emperor
King or Queen
Duke (Petty King) or Duchess
Marquis
Count (Earl or Jarl) or Countess
Viscount
Baron (Thane) or Baroness
Knight

The generic title for addressing somebody of rank would be "My Lord" or " My Lady". If you're unsure, this is typically a safe bet. This can be shortened to "Milord" if the character in question is a bit more casual or less educated.

Nobles can hold any number of titles, and can simultaneously be a King, a Duke and own several Counties and Baronies. In cases like these, they are always addressed by their highest title.

I may make references to male rulers here often, but it is important to remember that Forgotten Realms does not hold significantly different views on men and women. A worthy woman could just as easily claim land and titles as her male counterparts. It is ultimately up to the players on how they do things.

[III] The Marquis, Emperor & Knight

We won't be using the Marquis rank, as it typically belonged to Counts who owned land on the political borders of a kingdom. Therefore, they were given a higher rank as they were expected to be the first line of defense. Arelith is rather small, so there's no need for this or the Emperor title either. As for knights, they are technically the lowest rank of nobility, the bare-bones basic "noble" rank. A lot of it had to do with wealth, land and prestige, of course. A landed knight with a lot of money and prestige would be regarded as better off than a poor Baron, in some ways. In Guldorand's system, the knight's children do not inherit the rank of knight. They must earn it themselves. Because of this, they are not truly regarded to be "nobility" in the truest sense of the word. Typically knights would be considered retainers to their sworn lord.

[IV] The Baron (and the Peasant)

Image

TL:DR - Owner of part of a province, or county.

So a Baron or Baroness is the ruler of a Barony. What is a Barony? In short, it's a section of land that is often around a holding of some sort. A holding would be a manor house, a castle or fort (for wealthier Barons). I will go into detail on manor houses later, but for the purposes of explaining what Baron is, they'd have a section of land that they would "rent" to the free men or peasant classes in exchange for labour on their own land.

The Feudal system breaks down larger properties into small pieces that are managed by smaller groups, so the Baron would not be able to farm all of his land at once. This is where peasants come in. The lord would give the peasant a piece of land that he could farm for a price, this price often being a portion of what he grew. The peasant would then get to keep the rest. Weather and good circumstances permitting, this could make peasants quite wealthy. The difference between free men and peasants is that the peasant would also be obligated to farm the lord's personal lands for the planting and harvest seasons, hence the term "indentured servant". This system was remarkably effective for making use of all the available land, however in times of war, the peasants were often the first ones to be targeted, as disrupting their work would interfere with a kingdom's economy. Barons may also be independent and not serve a Count, but this would leave them very vulnerable to attacks, both by raiders and by other nobles wanting them to swear fealty. In times of war, the peasants are called to provide military service for the Baron.

The peasant system, in a clumsy sense, may be possible on Arelith, for those willing to try. Other words for peasants are serfs or villeins (not villains).

Other forms of address: Your Excellency

[V] The Count

Image

TL:DR - Owner of a County.

Counts are the rulers of Counties, a name that some places still use in modern times. These are basically provinces or regions of land that are defined by natural or political borders, and on average a County would consist of three Baronies, sometimes more, sometimes less. The Count would often keep two thirds of his land to prevent being overpowered by his vassal Barons and their armies (peasant conscripts or levies), so he most often kept the largest tracts of land to himself to discourage disloyalty. His Barons are subjected to taxes and rents, and whatever more than that they make, they may keep. In times of war, Barons are expected to provide money, troops and supplies to aid the war effort.

In terms of Arelith, the Skull Crags is considered a County. The title used in place of Count, however, is Earl. This is largely for flavour reasons, as the Anglo-Saxon/Gaelic style fits Guldorand better. Also, Counts are commonly associated with vampires. Any rank of nobility can be independent and therefore they do not answer to anyone, however being in control of a full county is preferable to owning only a part of it, and therefore Counts would have a much easier time defending their independence when compared to Barons.

Other forms of address: Your Excellency (For both Counts and Barons)

[VI] The Duke

Image
(Kir would be a Duchy)

TL:DR - Owner of several Counties.

A Duke, is of course, the ruler of a Duchy. A Duchy typically consists of several Counties, but in the case of Island Duchies, it is possible for it to consist of only one County (e.g. The Duchy of Sencliff). Typically the average number of Counties that a Duchy consists of is around 2 or 3. To explain why this is the case, we'd have to go into what De Jure and De Facto territories are, which is largely unnecessary for the purposes of Arelith, as the land has never been united as a kingdom before and therefore it is mostly "unclaimed" in terms of land and titles.

Typically the title of "Duke" implies that the noble has sworn fealty to a King, and serves them. Independent Dukes, in some cultures, did not use the term "duchy" but were rather known as Petty Kingdoms. This meant that the Duke was not addressed as such, but rather as a minor king. Of course, minor kings could not be sworn to greater kings, so they were simply Dukes and Kings, respectively. The only real difference between minor kings and kings is that true kingdoms had Dukes as vassals, and of course commanded a lot more power, wealth and land.

In technical terms, Cordor would be a Petty Kingdom in which Edward Cordor is the ruler, but abstains from governance and has the people elect a chancellor or prime minister instead. He notably does not possess any vassal Counts or Barons.

Another good example of this is in the series A Song of Ice and Fire (Game of Thrones) is how although the title of Duke is never used, when the seven "kingdoms" were conquered, they were only ruled over by one king. If you think of Ned Stark as the Duke of the North, instead of the "Warden" or Tywin Lannister as the Duke of the Westerlands, things may make a little more sense as to how it works.

Other forms of address (if Duke or Duchess): Your Grace
If they are a ruler of a Petty Kingdom, they are addressed in the same manner as a king. The ruler in question MUST be independent, however (they do not answer to anyone).

[VII] The King

(See the overall Tethyr image above for a kingdom)

TL:DR Owner of several Duchies.

In short, due to the size of Arelith, the entirety of the Isle would be a full kingdom when united under one banner. Although this could technically be possible for the highly ambitious, it would also be extraordinarily difficult. This version of a king is vastly different to the ruler of a Petty Kingdom, as they would have several powerful Dukes sworn to them, along with every Count and Baron beneath them.

Other forms of address (if King or Queen): Your Majesty
(If Prince or Princess): Your Highness

[VIII] The Manor or Keep

The place in which the ruler resided was more than just a house, it was also a center of government and in many cases, functioned as HQs for his officials. Historically, the nobility had many different manor houses that they traveled between from time to time, but on Arelith, we'll only ever need one. The manor house was often situated in the middle of the lord's lands, and therefore many of the peasantry that came to serve the nobility would build their houses near to the manor, for protection and so they could both farm their own patch of land, as well as the lord's. Because of this, hamlets and villages often grew around the manor, which may eventually grow into towns and cities. The most important place in the manor was the Great Hall, a place where the residents of the house ate and held meetings. This is where the lord of the land held court, and where his officials, advisors and associates gathered to discuss matters of governance.

No castle was complete without a Great Hall (or several) either. The castle was more than just a military fortification. More often than not, it served as a fortified house for the lord and lady of the castle, and their family. Castles were often in strategically vital positions, as an invading army could not safely pass them without being flanked, and therefore had to lay siege and capture castles to successfully invade territory. For this reason, castles held the finest blacksmiths and tools for equipment (and hence the term "castle-forged steel"), as well as all the best martial instructors to train fighting men.

[IX] Courtiers and Retainers

For courtly matters of law, typically for serious disputes and crimes, the accused would be sent to stand in front of the king (or ruler of the realm, in the case of independent counts and dukes) and he would face judgement before all of their courtiers and advisors. However, minor disputes could be settled by the relevant authorities in the land, and were often just fined. Members of the court were known as courtiers, and they were often members of other noble families in the land who lived in the ruler's castle or home (not really possible on Arelith), as well as these families' retainers. Commoners in the land who held important positions often became courtiers as well.

Courtiers were typically loyal supporters of the ruler's claim to the land. They were invited to feasts and dances, sought lovers amongst themselves (courtly love) and plotted against one another. Appearances were everything, and the ones who earned the ruler's favor were often awarded titles and land, and found themselves further up the food chain.

Retainers were the loyal servants of a particular noble family, and members of their household. They were different from hired help in that retainers are "adopted" into the family, as their noble masters will provide for them, and treat them with a high degree of respect. The bond between master and retainer was one of trust, and therefore an indication of a very good relationship between the two. Retainers typically held no more ambitions other than the person they were sworn to, and often held valuable skills, such as being doctors or healers, or even members of the clergy for the particularly devout lords. A more warlike noble may build a retinue of famous warriors, while a more money-savvy noble may find himself in the company of skilled merchant retainers and financial advisors. Retainers were treated as though they were members of the extended family, however they had to always show respect to the families they served and not take their prestige for granted.

[X] Commonly used terms or phrases

The Crown: Typically referring to the King, but in the case of an independent Count or Duke, it refers to them instead. The leader of an Absolute Monarchy.

Realm: The territory owned by the Crown.

Demesne: The land that was personally ruled over by a particular noble. If a Count ruled over 2/3 of his land personally, and gave 1/3 to a Baron, then the 2/3 of his land in question would be his demesne. It was generally frowned upon (and ineffective) to hoard too many titles, and have an excessively large demesne.

Livery: If a person was allowed to wear the colors and sigils of a particular noble house, they wore their livery. It refers to the identifying clothing of a particular noble house. It was heavily frowned upon (and even illegal) to wear a noble's livery without his consent, as it meant you were claiming to be in his service or care. In battle, surcoats and tabards were worn over armor.

I'll be editing and updating this from time to time. I know it's a lot to chew through, but it's intended for those with time to kill at work or those who are interested.

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Thanks for reading.
Last edited by Mr_Rieper on Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Feudal FAQ - Guldorand's system

Post by Stath » Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:07 am

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Re: Feudal FAQ - Guldorand's system

Post by dirza » Wed Oct 05, 2016 12:55 pm

Not the only one playing CK2 obviously...but i found few english names i was lacking for some things which i need for my own play. Thanks.

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Re: Feudal FAQ - Guldorand's system

Post by kittenblackfriends » Wed Oct 05, 2016 1:06 pm

The issue with peasantry/serfdom in Guldorand is the rather small amount of farmable land, being that the land is rocky and mountainous, overall unsuitable for farming (and no druid would mess with that unless they were Chauntean!). In such climates, the average person would make their living by breeding/herding hardy animals like goats, gathering mountain herbs, hunting for feathers and furs, serving as guides, and the like.

Of course, you could grant the peasants such things on loan, with the promise that they bring you back profits to receive another base amount the next year. And there are always way to grow hardier plants, like ones available in the Underdark.
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Re: Feudal FAQ - Guldorand's system

Post by dirza » Wed Oct 05, 2016 1:14 pm

Of course the common folks and their nature usually adopt to the local area. The mountain counties usually focused onto mining and things you named. It matters not if the common folk is called peasant or other title imho.

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Basics of Nobility:

Post by Mr_Rieper » Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:41 am

Most people haven't really dug into certain concepts, and most of their understanding of nobility comes from movies and video games - which often don't go out of their way to explain things very well. So I figured I'd explain things here with a basic analogy.

So we have three people:


Somebody who owns an apartment building.
A person who rents an apartment.
And a person who rents a room in it.


The building owner collects rents from every apartment in his building. He is in a position of direct authority over them, and with some legal help, can evict them from being a part of his property if they bother him. He's also responsible for all of them and will try to keep things running smoothly, as its in his best interests to do so. He is the landlord to the people he rents his property to, and has a say in who lives there, right down to the individuals who only rent rooms.

He's also the one that decides on all the upgrades and staff hired. He normally listens to a committee of people who live there and gets their opinion before making decisions.

The guy who has the lease for an apartment can choose to cover the rent by letting other people live in the rooms, but he's the one who has to make sure they are happy or don't mess it up. He's technically the landlord to the people who stay in the rooms, as they have to make sure he is paid for the month. If he wants to evict somebody, he can ask the building manager to help him do it legally.

The people who stay in the rooms are just happy to live there. They pay each month and get a comfortable place to live. They know what is expected of them and for the most part, as long as the rent is paid, there are no problems.

This is basically the feudal system in an extremely simple analogy.

The king owns land. He rents it to his vassals (lords). Those lords rent it to others. Peasants are people who have entered into a working contract with a lord. He will give them a place to farm if they do enough work for him on his own fields, and fight for him when the king calls for it. Using this system, large tracts of land were broken down to small portions and used effectively.

This is what the nobility did. They owned land, and rented it to people in exchange for their services. Just as when the building owner dies, he leaves it to his children - the noble would also have left land to his children, typically to the oldest son. That son would then become the new lord.

The different rankings of noble normally just gave a rough idea of how much land they owned. A Count or Earl would have enough land that he could support Barons on it. Vassal is not a negative term, generally. If somebody becomes a vassal, it means that they have sworn loyalty to a higher ranking noble. This was usually done for very practical reasons, such as protection. It was in the king's best interests to care for and protect his vassals.

This is also why nobles are not elected. Because in a modern sense, they are property owners. If you wanted their property, you'd have to find legal loopholes to take it. Back then this was done through marriage and inheritance. If you were living on somebody's land, you had to listen to them, or they would evict or imprison you. Basically the land was privately owned by the king, and he made the laws. Again, this wasn't an excuse to be cruel. It was in the king's best interests to make sure people were happy and content, not in open revolt.

In another extremely basic example: Irongron is the king of the server. Not because he is elected, but because he owns and maintains it, legally. The admin team are the noble elite while the DMs are the landed nobility. We, the commoners of the server, interact mainly with the DMs. The DMs answer to the admins. The admins decide on the direction that the server takes. It's in their best interests to treat the players well but they are under no legal obligation to do so, and can do as they please. The rules of the server are dictated by the admins, and enforced by the DMs.


When in doubt, just remember that nobles are landLORDS. That is where the term was used originally. They are the lords of the land.
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Re: Feudal FAQ - Guldorand's system

Post by milosr » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:32 pm

I think what many should consider, and fail to consider is, the authority and legality with which one holds the land. A king/emperor is granted that authority and legality over the land by "God" meaning basically, his claim on the land and his authority is taken as granted. As for the legality over which the lesser titles own the land, and their claims on it, its a dubious matter which can easily be disputed and often is.

For this reason I'v often found the whole Guldorand feudalism thing odd, because the legality and authority of the person holding the land is basically, as good as their word, for there is no higher liege that guarantees that authority, or is deemed by "god" to have that authority. An isolated earldom or whatever you'd like to call it is somewhat of an anomaly to me.

In essence what I mean to say is Feudalism without vassals makes no sense, because its not a feudal system but a...despotic one for the lack of a better term. So...go establish/conquer some outposts/villages and give out titles, and then perhaps it will start being a feudal system.

Or am I missing something here and Guldorand is actually a vassal of Cordor?

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Re: Feudal FAQ - Guldorand's system

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:46 pm

I do believe if you shop around in-game, milosr, that the creation/history of the earldom of Guldorand is intertwined with the faithful of Nobanion. There's certainly relationships of religion and kingdom there.

We'll never truly be able to have feudalism, because we can't change settlement election laws in-game, and we'll never be able to honestly replicate the entangled web of loyalties, military service, taxation, serfdom, etc. But this a very nice resource that'll allow people to buy into that style of roleplay, and hopefully serve as a good entry point as to what we're trying to do.
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Re: Feudal FAQ - Guldorand's system

Post by milosr » Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:17 pm

Yeah sorry if I came out as a bit of a snugglebear, sometimes the "history nut" in me has the better of me and I end up posting stuff like that. In essence, aslong as you chaps enjoy it, it works!

Although out of curiosity, what is the logic behind calling it Earldom?...if you are a self proclaimed feudal nation, you would never take the rank of an earl, but rather a one thats more stylish like Kingdom/Duke something catchy, or as some would refer to as "Petty Kingdom".

Earldom implies that there is a liege of the earl in question, and that the earl is a part of a larger feudal nation, but that is not the case here from what I gather. So...Kingdom of Guldorand sounds legit, unless ofcourse the naming was an attempt of not seeming too pretentious while having a powerful neighbor such as Cordor.

In any case, seeing as you chaps are doing a lovely job of breaking the Hollywood stereotypes, perhaps you could post something regarding feudal authority, since taking ones authority for granted is a difficult task for the today's mindset. You could frame it in a "legal" sense perhaps, because if there is no "legal" sense to it, anyone with enough "political power/manpower" could take over the kingdom(land) and put himself on top.

Perhaps a more detailed description of such could lead to more folks seeing Guldorand as a game-of-thronesey place where they can scheme and vie for a place in the hierarchy and building up enough "legality" or degrading the rulers "legality" enough to overthrow him. Which in my humble opinion, is quite possibly where the most fun of feudal roleplay could be found.

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Feudal Stuff (Guldorand):

Post by Mr_Rieper » Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:02 am

All good questions and I'll do my best to answer without going too far into FOIG territory. There needs to a balance between OOC and IC for me, as I need to be true to my character AND do something that other players find interesting. So I'll try to answer the OOC side of things.

At the time of founding, the Dominion was a large and active faction on the server. They essentially ruled over Wharftown, and Rosenkranz proclaimed himself Archduke and ruler of the western regions of Arelith, as well as the ruler of Sencliff.

Of course, Cordor was active as a petty kingdom themselves, after the players succeeded in putting Edward on the throne.

So the question of "Why an Earldom?" is a good one. There were a few factors, but the main one was starting small. Guldorand was, and still is, a logging town. It would be strange for somebody to declare themselves king of such a small and underdeveloped region. My character is also from a Tethyrian noble family, and is more comfortable with their style of government. Granted, in Tethyr, it would have been called a County, but Earl/Jarl matches with the anglo-saxon/norse theme that Guldorand seems to have going for it.

So we're just roleplaying the development of it all. I've designed a political map of the Skull Crags that I intend to complete one day and upload here, but basically the Earldom is split up into three large chunks. Eldwyn Leofricson is the Baron of the southern chunk. The northern bit has no Baron yet. So while my character isn't a king, he still has at least one vassal of his own.

There's also plenty of feudal realms that were not part of any kingdoms. One doesn't necessarily need to be a king to be independent.

As for the legality and hierarchy, I'll be putting up more as I write it out later. As most will recognize, the first post was influenced by me getting my feet wet in CK2. Since then I've gotten quite a bit of research material and books on the Middle Ages, as well as books on heraldry. I'll be chewing through all of that and posting things up here as I go along.

This style of government is very strange to most players, and must seem like ancient history. But I do feel its necessary to have resources like these for the Forgotten Realms setting, as many of the more popular countries have some sort of monarchy. Cormyr, Tethyr and even the Moonshaes, Northmen included, have their own kings and queens. It would not and should not be strange to most characters that exist in the world.
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