Parry and Deflect Arrows

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miesny_jez
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Re: Parry and Deflect Arrows

Post by miesny_jez » Sat Feb 04, 2017 3:28 pm

Lorkas wrote:
Observation: you can activate whirlwind attack without breaking parry mode (though I'm unsure how/if the animations will conflict).
If that's correct.. then WOW. I smell a new tanking meta starting thanks to the parry changes

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Lorkas
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Re: Parry and Deflect Arrows

Post by Lorkas » Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:31 pm

Like I said, it might be that the animations conflict and the character won't be able to parry anything for the duration of the whirlwind, but it doesn't drop parry mode. I hear that's the whole reason for the 1-per-flurry limitation on parry actually: you can't parry an attack while your parry animation from dealing with a previous attack is still playing, and it takes about 2 seconds to finish.

I have also seen people complaining that parry mode takes a little while to activate at the start of every encounter. Does this mean that disengage/re-engage strategies will make parry not really a viable option in PvP?

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Re: Parry and Deflect Arrows

Post by yellowcateyes » Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:50 pm

The base parry mode activates and deactivates as quickly as any other combat mode. But the scripted parry bonuses only activate a few seconds after you click parry, in order to prevent some bugs involving the activation of parry bonuses on normal attacks.

Parry currently does not enjoy the scripted changes to Expertise and Flurry that make them persistent as you walk around and target swap.
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miesny_jez
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Re: Parry and Deflect Arrows

Post by miesny_jez » Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:16 pm

My parry character parried an attack from an enemy who was not its target today

I guess You are parrying any incoming attack be it Your target or not in cases where You are fighting against multiple enemies.

milosr
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Re: Parry and Deflect Arrows

Post by milosr » Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:26 pm

Oh, and for all you parry aficionados out there... Parry works with cleave/great cleave.

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Re: Parry and Deflect Arrows

Post by miesny_jez » Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:39 am

Thoughts on Cleave/Greater Cleave
I think that combining Parry with Cleave/Greater Cleave will never actually work - I mean like it will work mechanically in terms of giving You more attacks of course.. but..

As a parry character with 3 parry/ripostes per round You will never want to put Yourself in a situation that You are attacked by multiple enemies due to the fact they will have more attacks then You can possibly parry.

Cleave/Greater Cleave works best on a Two-Hander Raging Barbarian/WM running into mobs of enemies - someone who not only has his enemies already on lower hp values (Biteback), but can also count on a streak of Crits happening on a 4x or at least 3x modifier.

In case of a parry character You would only respond to incoming attacks. He/She will be slower in killing enemies then if You would go in direct assault as You have only 3 attacks instead of 5 (Hasted Scenario).

If we consider a hypothetical scenario:
Bill is a Parry character and he attacks 4 Gnolls (with 3 attacks/round)

Round 1:
Gnoll1 1x Riposte, 2 go through
Gnoll2 1x Riposte, 2 go through
Gnoll3 1x Riposte, 2 go through
Gnoll4 3 attacks go through

Just after one round we end up with 3 Barely scratched gnolls, while being subject to 9 attack attempts - not a very good trade.

We could argue that we can always go parrying Barbarian/WM.. but to get high levels of parry - You need high DX. A High DX will lead to rather high AC levels which will be essentially working against You Barbarian biteback mechanic cutting down its effectivity and again leading to a situation that You end up with multiple enemies on Your back which are barely scratched.

Nope.. I think that Cleave/GCleave is not the way to go if You are a Parry character.

Thoughts on Circle Kick
What will work though, and I think should work greatly is combining parry with Circle Kick.. considering what Lorkas has pointed - Circle Kick gives.. and "additional Riposte" against any other enemy - meaning You can effectively fight two enemies at once with a parry character. You are parrying still the same amount of time as normal - 3 attacks, but You are getting 4 Riposte (3 + 1 free follow-up attack) in return thanks to the Circle Kick.

Thoughts on Improved Disarm/Called Shot/Knockdown

Another thing which should work greatly on a parry character should be Improved Disarm. You can queue that in Your attack queue and will be executed during a Riposte attack. Your will have a very solid bonus to attack thanks to the Riposte making it much easier to disarm Your enemy and through automatic switching between enemies You will actually disarm everyone who is attacking You without the need of changing target (this takes a moment in NWN and makes You loose whole flurry or a round of fight in worst case.).
But of course the case of fighting minimal amount of enemies at the same time still stands due to amount of parry/ripostes.
POINT to note: Disarm allows You to bypass the hard-cap on +AB (20) if You are using a large weapon vs smaller weapons by Your enemy. Current fineasable weapons are:
Tiny: Dagger, Kukri,
Small: Shortsword, Mace, Sickle, Kama, Katana, Light Hammer, Handaxe, Whip
Medium: Rapier,
Large: Quarterstaff


Called Shot should be another thing which in theory would work greatly on a Parry Character. Lowering the enemy AB - will allow You for easier Ripostes/Parries. BUT there is a catch - if You lower Your enemy AB too much he will start missing You due to Your AC - misses don't generate parry/ripostes so You won't be actually able to spam the Called Shot:Arm.. and with the bonus +hit from the parry mode You shouldn't have any issues to hit an enemy during the riposte. So called shot may work.. but You may actually not have a great contribution from it.

Knockdown - now this is the talent to go and almost a must have for all melee characters. But in case of a parry character this feat becomes a very different option. For a typical melee combatant a Knockdown is an offensive feat - You knockdown, You get Your enemy on its butt, he looses AC thanks to flatfoot - You can hit it easier/ do Sneak attacks to it all is good and simple. In a parry character case knockdown becomes a defensive feat in cases when You are fighting multiple enemies. I would say Knockdown in such case is even MORE important then a typical melee because it will allow You to control the number of enemies who are actually attacking You.

A hypothetical scenario:
Bill is attacking 4 Gnolls, Bill has Knockdown and queues 3 knockdowns
Round1:
Gnoll1: 1x Riposte = Knockdown, -
Gnoll2: 1x Riposte = Knockdown, -
Gnoll3: 1x Riposte = Knockdown, -
Gnoll4: 3 attacks go through

Thanks to automatic target switching through riposte Bill doesn't have to switch targets manually (and loose flurry attacks) he knockdowns first three attacks leaving Gnoll1,2,3 on their butts.

Round2:
Gnoll1: -
Gnoll2: -
Gnoll3: -
Gnoll4: 3x Ripostes

That's the theory at least.. of course theory always crumble against real world but having a Knockdown seems to be Very important for a Parry character if You want to fight more then 1 enemy, PLUS with the bonuses from parry mode it will be even easier to get successful knockdowns in.

In overall I believe that a Parry character will have a very engaging and interesting melee play. We just need some more weapon choices which are fineasable, both medium and large size as currently its very much focused for monk-play.

Finesable Spears, Tridents, Halberds, Scimitars and Flails (both variants) would be a very welcoming addition 8-)

milosr
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Re: Parry and Deflect Arrows

Post by milosr » Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:10 pm

From what I've seen cleave only works if you are a full raging barb with a scythe/greataxe. Basically...you will be oneshotting things with crits, and that will net you a cleave. Seriously, don't underestimate +20ish DMG you are getting from both rage+parry, at like lvl15ish. (additionally it might even allow you to knockdown a fourth target?)

Plus...barbarian is the only class which can afford to BE hit, and thats what parry is all about, getting hit, obviously.

Btw...you can play a dex based barb(boosting parry further). The fact that you are full AB class, and the fact that you get +2AB from two hander, and +5 from parry, makes it unnecessary to push STR past 18(including items) netting you the magical 42AB at lvl30.

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