Fighter AC Bonus Question

[Reptile]

what do you mean he is right every thing he said is not true what is happening here

Maphias.. there is no easy way to gently let you down. Im not lying. You don't understand the game engine. Note that it was a double 20 and it was not a critical hit, just a "hit". Barring true strike, that mechanic says worlds about what threat ranges are really worth.

Image cutoff, you can view the full here: http://s32.postimg.org/hqjjotw1x/AC_is_ ... nity_2.jpg

[DrVindaloo]

I might be crazy here, but aren't Reptile and Baron Saturday saying exactly the same thing?

[Peppermint]

Yes. Also Mapheas is wrong. As usual.

[TheVandals]

Can you elaborate Mapheas? If your threat range is 10-20, but you need a 15 or better to hit, you won't hit or confirm on a 10, 11, 12, 13, or 14 ever. AC does beat threat range, and it is supposed to function as a balancing factor against high-threat range builds (like WM) but for the reason I mentioned earlier (True strike potions), it's possible to circumvent AC's power to mitigate the damage from a large threat range.

[msterswrdsmn]

Reptile looks more or less right. Its the bare-bones basics; its not including stuff like concealment that can further screw with crit calculations.

As for the 5 or 7 WM; 5 is doable. You still gain an increase crit multiplier and +1 AB, though you're loosing a lot considering you can't multiclass much with a 25/5 build. Slightly less frequent criticals, however, is a fair tradeoff for being able to cut through all bypassable DR except for dragonshaper DR.

Obviously, you're not getting the full benefit of the WM class with just 5 levels, but you're probably not going to get the full bonus out of ANY class with just 5 levels. Or with 25 fighter levels (fighter bonuses excluded)

Personally? I'd like to see some of the fighter bonuses kick in earlier, as its hard for some players to reach epic levels, much less high epics. I do like the fact the bonuses are spread out and awarded in incriments to help give some feel of progression/reward. Though again, it seems like most of the boosts kick in after epic levels.

[Baron Saturday]

*makes many edits of shame after misreading Reptile's original post*
Basically, yeah, Reptile is right. Details in my post.

[Cortex]

Between +2 threat and another feat, what could you take that is better than +2 threat that you can't fit in a normal build?

Not to mention, the odd 7 adds up to 10 with bard/rogue/whatever and then you still get 20 fighter, or that against a target you need to roll 20s to hit not many other feats would aid against.

Lastly, but not least, having +1 average damage against a target you can't critical is really not a winning point between rapier/scimitar/kukri and 1d8 weapons.

last edit: Especially considering high AC builds can often be rid of said AC with dispels, taunt or flat footing, PMs aside.

[Maphias]

Huh. I have never seen or heard this happen before.

whelp gonna go hang myself now

[Hunter548]

[Unconstructive insult]

[Reptile]

Huh. I have never seen or heard this happen before.

whelp gonna go hang myself now

Don't sweat it maphias. We have all made oops'ies before, we will all make many more before we are through. Back to the main topic at hand though:

Im still saddened by these fighter changes, as my dex based main character, Ixvilith, has been hit very hard by them.

With existing gear: -9ac, +7 discipline,+2 dex(can trashbin my dex potions), -3ab, -3 dmg.

With new, optimized gear: -1ac, -5 universal saves, -2 con meaning 30 less hp and -1 fort, -4 heal, -4 spellcraft resulting in an additional -1 saves vs spells, -1d4ish dmg, same ab, +2 dex(could rearrange items further and trade this for the 2 lost con), +1 disc, 10% physical immunity. And this also means scrapping a 5% basin tower shield, 5% basin weapon, and a +4 uni save artefact helmet. I guess im glad I never made the 5% cloth as that would also have become worthless. Why arelith.. I... *joins maphias in a mass suicide*

[TheVandals]

Someone told me to 5%-keen the masterly weapons. If my calculations are right, I'd have to log in and spend my trade points around the clock for 36 real life days to replace the 2 keeners I had beforehand. That's not accounting for the time it would take to accumulate the required gold.

*joins maphias and Reptile in mass suicide.*

[rat0a]

Yes, it is time consuming, Masterly Damask Weapon is a 535 crafting point project and even with a dedicated Master Smith that have let's say 50 or more as a smith it will take a long time to get it if you get it at all.

I had done it four times, they way I do it is that I forge 30 weapons and blow them all in one sitting keep in mind if you do this yourself is going to cost you 25k coins per failure and 2.5k XP and is going to take over a month to amass all the weapon if you work on the clock and play many hours the game.

One example is my Kensai, she went from level 27 to level 24 in minutes and lost around 600k coins, she got it on the 17th try or so. No enchanter is going to help you if you like to do it that way but to me is better that doing it one by one.

[FoxyPigeon]

I still think the ab/dmg bonus should be lower then 20. If the nerf was to push people to use the crafted armor and weapons, I'm really not convinced. Unless you're invested with 20 levels you wont ever beat things like damage soak. Alternatively, people can just continue using bronze, with GMW. This grants you +5 enchantment. So, you gain +2 ab, and only 1 less damage then masterly damask; and you can beat damage soak, even on spells like premonition and stoneskin.

[Liareth]

Why do you think that mundane fighters should innately be able to penetrate damage soak spells?

[Lorkas]

I still think the ab/dmg bonus should be lower then 20. If the nerf was to push people to use the crafted armor and weapons, I'm really not convinced. Unless you're invested with 20 levels you wont ever beat things like damage soak.

This is exactly how it was before the recent fighter change, and I don't think it's a bad thing.

[FoxyPigeon]

Why do you think that mundane fighters should innately be able to penetrate damage soak spells?

I don't think they should be able to penetrate spell damage soak w/o GMW or 25+ fighter levels. I was just saying it's a pain imo, and silly that if a character doesn't have 20 levels in fighter they'll always be at a disadvantage against certain spawns. +4 bonus does not beat the spell's damage soak, but does beat stuff like most golems.

[Yorick Shadowfeather]

Not having the Penetration for the DR against the things your level kinda cuts out a lot of area's, Because you cant fight certain spawns. Some of those places just wouldn't be worth getting several GMW scrolls or absolutely needing a cleric every time. Getting the bonuses earlier gives players a reason to take fighter- Instead of going Barb and having to buy the GMW scrolls they would have had to buy anyway (perhaps cranking up the market for them that is unrealistic, like True strike). Because most fighter based builds generally only reach 20 fighter around or at 30; And by that time, Every melee build will have made measures against it anyway. (Pretty much GMW scrolls )

I get that the current weapons had been completely overshadowed by the old fighter bonuses, Because getting the bonus before level 20 allowed people to get gear that was too strong for their level; But once again- because fighter levels are generally split between WM/ Pally or other Dip classes, They wont even benefit from it at all, unless they go straight fighter until 20 (and ruining some of their epic feats).

[gilescorey]

Not having the Penetration for the DR against the things your level kinda cuts out a lot of area's, Because you cant fight certain spawns. Some of those places just wouldn't be worth getting several GMW scrolls or absolutely needing a cleric every time. Getting the bonuses earlier gives players a reason to take fighter- Instead of going Barb and having to buy the GMW scrolls they would have had to buy anyway (perhaps cranking up the market for them that is unrealistic, like True strike). Because most fighter based builds generally only reach 20 fighter around or at 30; And by that time, Every melee build will have made measures against it anyway. (Pretty much GMW scrolls )

I get that the current weapons had been completely overshadowed by the old fighter bonuses, Because getting the bonus before level 20 allowed people to get gear that was too strong for their level; But once again- because fighter levels are generally split between WM/ Pally or other Dip classes, They wont even benefit from it at all, unless they go straight fighter until 20 (and ruining some of their epic feats).

What is your point? You had it before with 25 fighter levels, and you can still get it with 25 and a m. damask weapon. And the mobs that need penetration can die to other methods, this isn't a solo game. "Bring a fighter" shouldn't be the answer to every spawn on the server.

[Fighterlvl3]

there is a possibility of having some of the ac shield bonus of the fighter turn into a better weapon enhacement if you don´t actually use shield? Seems a little unfair for two handers to not only loose the shield bonus, but to loose ac bonus from their class features too.

[gilescorey]

there is a possibility of having some of the ac shield bonus of the fighter turn into a better weapon enhacement if you don´t actually use shield? Seems a little unfair for two handers to not only loose the shield bonus, but to loose ac bonus from their class features too.

nobody loses AC
the AC is the same, except you get it earlier
just
buy
crafted
gear

[Fighterlvl3]

there is a possibility of having some of the ac shield bonus of the fighter turn into a better weapon enhacement if you don´t actually use shield? Seems a little unfair for two handers to not only loose the shield bonus, but to loose ac bonus from their class features too.

nobody loses AC
the AC is the same, except you get it earlier
just
buy
crafted
gear

I Don´t think you actually took time to read the post...

[gilescorey]

I Don´t think you actually took time to read the post...

but to loose ac bonus from their class features too.

You haven't lost any AC, man. With adamantine gear, the enhancement bonus is +4, +5, or +6. Same as it was before, except now you can't have enchants and +6 AC, you only get +6 ac.

With a two hander, the trade off you make is more damage for less armour class. It's a shitty trade on Arelith (for fighters, barbs don't really shed that many tears because they have biteback), but that's how it is. It's how it was before, too. 2handers being suboptimal on fighters is nothing new.

[Fighterlvl3]

i m not talking about the changes. I m talking about balancing one handed and two handed, since two handed is always quite bad, but the difference gets even worse on a fighter where he gains extra things just by having a shield in the off hand. Most characters would loose 6 ac (a lot) by using a greatsword, but a pure fighter would loose 9 freaking points of AC.

[Peppermint]

The disparity between one-handers and two-handers has not changed at all with this update. A fighter loses just as much AC for not wielding a shield now as he would have pre-update. There's no difference.

We did briefly discuss the possibility of giving two-hander fighters a bit of love with this update, perhaps by removing the shield bonus altogether so that shields would have a smaller impact on AC compared to pre-update fighters. In the end, though, we decided that if we're going to throw two-handers a bone, it oughtn't be something that falls strictly under the purview of the fighter class. We'd prefer to make two-handers stronger as a universal option.

[Trunx]

I think giving two-handers something like +4 damage across the board would be a nice buff. Make their strength a bit stronger, but their weakness remains the same.