Fighter AC Bonus Question

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Endrak
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Fighter AC Bonus Question

Post by Endrak » Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:55 am

Hello,

I'm leveling a Fighter/Weapon Master at the moment, and I just hit Level 8. I had Steel equipment waiting in the wings, but when I equipped it, I got a message telling me my AC bonuses didn't stack.

After searching around for anything that could be causing issues, I'm forced to assume that the existing bonuses on the equipment don't stack with my Fighter AC bonuses.

My question: Is that supposed to happen? I was under the impression that the Fighter bonuses were supposed to stack on top of everything since they're a class feature. If they don't stack, then I might as well not upgrade my gear and just smack a bunch of enchantments on Bronze armor.

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Stath
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Re: Fighter AC Bonus Question

Post by Stath » Thu Apr 28, 2016 7:16 am

Yeah mate it's supposed to happen. If the armour's AC bonus is higher, it applies. If your fighter bonus is higher, it applies and cancels out the armour. They do not stack. So yeah, you wanna enchant some Bronze. Unless you're like, a Palemaster with Adamantine.
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Rodent
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Re: Fighter AC Bonus Question

Post by Rodent » Thu Apr 28, 2016 7:22 am

They do not stack, you're right. Choices for equipment for you depend on how many fighter levels you intend to take. If it's less than fifteen, you can benefit from an adamantine shield and helmet for +2 AC after accounting for your fighter bonus. But if you take fifteen and beyond, there's no point in spending on adamantine, and you should go for a simple bronze shield and helmet with custom enchantments on it.

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Re: Fighter AC Bonus Question

Post by Endrak » Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:48 pm

Thanks, folks. That'll save time and money.

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msterswrdsmn
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Re: Fighter AC Bonus Question

Post by msterswrdsmn » Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:28 am

Future reference; Dodge and "special" AC bonuses are the only ones that stack on top of each other. Armor, Deflection, Shield, and Natural AC all go by the highest numerical value avaliable.

Further; fighter bonuses are applied directly to the item and are treated as whatever AC type that item offers (armor is armor, helmets are deflection, etc). Fighter bonuses don't create any sort of dodge or uncapped AC bonuses, which is why they never stack.

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Re: Fighter AC Bonus Question

Post by Durvayas » Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:34 pm

I'll note that the devs have mentioned they will be reviewing the FTR bonus and how it is implemented due to the massive blow it's dealt to the crafting economy of the game, specifically blacksmiths.

Whats been mentioned is how things are, and those things are subject to change. keep it in mind.
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Re: Fighter AC Bonus Question

Post by Razmo_de » Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:39 pm

Durvayas wrote:I'll note that the devs have mentioned they will be reviewing the FTR bonus and how it is implemented due to the massive blow it's dealt to the crafting economy of the game, specifically blacksmiths.

Whats been mentioned is how things are, and those things are subject to change. keep it in mind.
Then again, smithing armors was always kinda poor.
You can heavily invest in it, to mass produce masterly damask for that 5% keen masterly damask roll. People will buy those weapons en masse.
Adamantine is just ridiculously hard to come by and gives you a poor bonus, compared to other equipment; just like it always was.

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Re: Fighter AC Bonus Question

Post by dirza » Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:01 pm

And economy was already broken far prior changes. Main point made was that lots of people complained it is too powerfull bonuses.

Economy is a joke cause:
you make more money on monsters than making items (look at time spent on making masterly damaskus)
items are weaker than enchanted versions
each faction got their own craft, producing for free or under value

I do not want to open flame war about economy. But every time on czech servers tried to make bigger focus on economy, it had devastating blows on player counts.

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Re: Fighter AC Bonus Question

Post by Liareth » Sun May 01, 2016 9:59 am

Here's a summary of the impending fighter changes:
Fighters gain the following:

- +1 Discipline / 3 Levels
- +1 Strength / 10 Levels*

In addition, they gain the following bonuses which stack with existing items:

- Shield AC Bonus (+1 at 5, +2 at 25, +3 at 30)
- Armor AC Bonus (+1 at 10, +2 at 25, +3 at 30)
- Helmet AC Bonus (+1 at 15, +2 at 25, +3 at 30)
- Weapon Attack Bonus (+1 at 20, +2 at 25, +3 at 30)*
- Weapon Damage Bonus (+1 at 20, +2 at 25 ,+3 at 30)**

Total Bonuses at Level 30: +10 Discipline, +3 Strength, +3 Shield AC, +3 Armor AC, +3 Helmet AC, +3 Weapon Attack Bonus, +3 Weapon Damage Bonus

* If the fighter's base dexterity is higher than his base strength, then he will receive a dexterity bonus instead.
** Attack bonus will stack with enhancement bonus as well (e.g. if the fighter has +1 AB on his weapon, he will receive +2 AB on his weapon at level 20; however, if the weapon has +1 AB and +2 enhancement, he will instead receive +3 AB on his weapon -- either way, he effectively gains +1 to hit).
*** Damage bonus will stack with damage bonuses on the weapon as well as enhancement bonuses; whichever is higher. If the weapon has a variable-based damage bonus, then the damage bonus granted might also be variable based (e.g. a 20th level fighter would gain a +4 damage property on a weapon with +3 damage, or a +1d6 damage property on a weapon with +1d4 damage -- both average to +1 damage).

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Re: Fighter AC Bonus Question

Post by Stath » Sun May 01, 2016 10:21 am

RIP Fighters, RIP Brycebuild. Goodbye big crits of doom, hello battle clerics and barbarian rage.
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High Primate
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Re: Fighter AC Bonus Question

Post by High Primate » Sun May 01, 2016 10:36 am

Can someone remind me what the AC bonus is for adamantine armor?
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Re: Fighter AC Bonus Question

Post by gilescorey » Sun May 01, 2016 10:43 am

High Primate wrote:Can someone remind me what the AC bonus is for adamantine armor?
3 rofl

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Re: Fighter AC Bonus Question

Post by Nitro » Sun May 01, 2016 10:47 am

I quite like these changes. Those who invest a full 30 levels of fighter will have their gear on par with adamantite/damask by default, and the strongest armor around with the stacking, while dips will get some added strength depending on how deep they dip but still has a use in regular smith made equipment.
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Re: Fighter AC Bonus Question

Post by RamblerTeo » Sun May 01, 2016 10:48 am

Stath wrote:RIP Fighters, RIP Brycebuild. Goodbye big crits of doom, hello battle clerics and barbarian rage.
And monks.
All this nerf did was diddle brycebuild and some other things.
All WMs have to do is just switch to addy.
Last edited by RamblerTeo on Sun May 01, 2016 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

Trunx
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Re: Fighter AC Bonus Question

Post by Trunx » Sun May 01, 2016 10:48 am

Is the stat bonus hard or soft? Soft bonus would help a lot with enchantment/item slots, hard bonus would seem a bit too good with just 10 levels (equivalent of an epic feat).

A 20/7/3 build gets +4 AC on helmet/shield/armor right now, but with the changes, wearing adamantine, it'd come add to +4 on all, yes? That seems like a fair trade off: either keep the AC advantage by wearing adamantine like everyone else has to for AC, or wear enchanted gear (although if you enchant your stuff with +1 AC, in addition to skills etc, you'll only lose 1 AC compared to other people wearing adamantine, still giving you an advantage).

How does the attack bonus thing work with masterly damask? Does 20-7-3 now get +5 AB? That seems exorbitant, especially if the stat bonus is hard- making their current +4 to +6-7 and their already ridiculous AB even higher (52-53ish). Nevermind, got something wrong and when I fixed it didn't check my math again - it'd be +4 AB on masterly damask like before. Or +5/6 if the str/dex bonus is hard.

Fighter/WMs were the most popular build before any fighter changes were made, and they're a lot stronger than they were back then. Any way you slice it, these changes are not dramatic and won't affect power balance drastically. Certainly not enough to make battleclerics stomp them. "Brycebuild" isn't screwed either. It has the choice of wearing enchanted gear at the cost of -1 AC, instead of -2 AC like other builds. Also gets stuff like +1 AB, etc. And if the player decides to wear adamantine, then it retains the old AC. So...

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Re: Fighter AC Bonus Question

Post by Stath » Sun May 01, 2016 11:09 am

Soft stat bonus. Like my epeen after reading this thread
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Re: Fighter AC Bonus Question

Post by Trunx » Sun May 01, 2016 11:14 am

Okay, so the 20/7/3 build still has most of its old advantages, they just have to make choices like other people now. Not having to put +1 strength on two items, still getting more AB, more AC, +6 free discipline...

It's still a ridiculously strong build.

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Re: Fighter AC Bonus Question

Post by DestroyerOTN » Sun May 01, 2016 11:16 am

- +1 Discipline / 3 Levels
- +1 Strength / 10 Levels*

* If the fighter's base dexterity is higher than his base strength, then he will receive a dexterity bonus instead.
Huh. Disc every three.
So. Just being clear. The solution to nerfing weapon masters is to buff Rogues, Barbarians, and Clerics.

Ok cool.
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Re: Fighter AC Bonus Question

Post by High Primate » Sun May 01, 2016 11:32 am

gilescorey wrote:
High Primate wrote:Can someone remind me what the AC bonus is for adamantine armor?
3 rofl
Hey, playing a fighter build for years, one forgets these things. :P
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Tarkus the dog
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Re: Fighter AC Bonus Question

Post by Tarkus the dog » Sun May 01, 2016 11:43 am

Welp, time to roll Nikolaus.
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Re: Fighter AC Bonus Question

Post by gilescorey » Sun May 01, 2016 11:43 am

High Primate wrote:
gilescorey wrote:
High Primate wrote:Can someone remind me what the AC bonus is for adamantine armor?
3 rofl
Hey, playing a fighter build for years, one forgets these things. :P
No, it's not you I'm giggling at, it's just these changes do very little to the 20/7/3 WM build that I'm fairly sure was the target. You lose:
3 str
3 AC
3 constitution
6 heal
6 spellcraft, and 6 of any other skill you decide to pop on should you decide to go with four skills

That's as a 20/7/3 WM. You just replace your stuff with adamantine and that's what you lose. It's not a huge deal, at all, and all it really does is kind of make the already gimmicky bryce-build worse. You don't even lose the +6 discipline.

Edit:
Tarkus the dog wrote:Welp, time to roll Nikolaus.
Case in point.
Last edited by gilescorey on Sun May 01, 2016 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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High Primate
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Re: Fighter AC Bonus Question

Post by High Primate » Sun May 01, 2016 11:47 am

Can someone please explain the term "bryce-build"?

Edit: where does the loss of AC come from? As things are, the WM build gets +4 AC from all of those things as bronze. With the upcoming change, they still get +4 (+3 from addy and +1 from the bonuses).
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Re: Fighter AC Bonus Question

Post by gilescorey » Sun May 01, 2016 11:49 am

High Primate wrote:Can someone please explain the term "bryce-build"?
Well, generally it's.. 22 levels of fighter, 5 levels of paladin (or blackguard, though it's not as good) and 3 levels of rogue or bard for UMD/tumble dump.
It banks off of using divine shield and divine might, as well as getting juicy paladin RP without being a smiter. A fun build, kind of gimmicky I guess but it's not bad.. well, now it definitely suffers. Losing three charisma hurts them, as they use STR/CHA gear. Low HP, thus gimmicky like I said.

edit
High Primate wrote:Edit: where does the loss of AC come from? As things are, the WM build gets +4 AC from all of those things as bronze. With the upcoming change, they still get +4 (+3 from addy and +1 from the bonuses).
Well, as far as I know the +1 from bonuses doesn't stack w/ addy.

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High Primate
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Re: Fighter AC Bonus Question

Post by High Primate » Sun May 01, 2016 11:53 am

All fighter bonuses now stack with equipment.
Edit: Someone said it was a soft bonus, but that wasn't mentioned in Scholar Midnight's post.
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Re: Fighter AC Bonus Question

Post by Trunx » Sun May 01, 2016 11:55 am

I'm not sure what the complaint is. 20-7-3 wasn't nerfed enough? But it was nerfed enough that you have to roll? It's kind of confusing. Or is the complaint that 20-7-3 is still good, but other 20fighter-X-Y builds are nerfed more?

20+ fighters still get more room for enchantments than other builds, with the exception of clerics. Just because they could both have crazy AC bonuses and free enchantment slots before doesn't mean that's how it should always be.

"Bryce build" doesn't lose 3 charisma with these changes. A player with that build can just use enchanted gear instead. +1 AC, +1 charisma, +skillpoints. That gives them +2 AC from helmet/plate/shield, 1 less than adamantine, 1 more than anyone else who had to go for enchanted gear instead of crafted gear.

I can't sympathize much when people complain about that. They had their cake and got to eat it too before. Now they get to have their cake and get a couple of slices. Everyone else still just gets the cake, or a couple of slices.

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