Your typical Bardadin build?

[RamblerTeo]

Hey there, this is the first time I am creating a Paladin and my starting stats are:
17 STR
8 DEX
10 CON
14 WIS
14 INT
18 CHA

That includes gifts ^^
+2STR
+2CHA
+2CON

I mostly leveled discipline, heal and taunt, leaving the free points for the Bard levels on a Smiterdin build, but Ferret Roll(Adalbrandt) told me that I won't amass enough CHA until epic levels to be a good smiter, and that a good alternative would be a Bard/Pally mix.
So, could anyone help out with patching this together?
I'm already lvl 4 and I took Divine Shield.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

You wanna go 20 bard/4 paladin/6 XX (fighter, would be best). Bardadins are Lasting Inspiration builds, if they cannot get Great Smite.

You'll want a final spread of 18 STR, and 26 CHA (which is 38 CHA, which is +14 dmg/AC with Divine Might and Shield).

Bardadins are called bardadins for good reason. You can go 16 bard/4 paladin pre-epic, or 12 bard/4 paladin/4 fighter (the latter could induce a multiclass penalty, but you get more feats and Weapon Spec before epics).

Key thing to do is to manage feats. If you have Divine Shield, you already have Power Attack. Did you start human?

Anyways, that means you have 6, 9, 12, 15, 18 = 5. To get the other Divine Feat, Weapon Focus, Knockdown, Blindfight, Improved Critical (also 5). It doesn't allow for a great deal of flexibility. And if you resign to go 20 bard, you need Curse Song.

[Jack Oat]

Echoing what Seven said, a 20/4/6 Bard/Paladin/Fighter build would be your typical Bardadin build. I'd argue the difference between going 26 CHA and 24 as far as being able to spread some points around to DEX or CON, but it isn't that big of a deal. What I see as an issue with your build, Teo, is the abysmally low 10 CON and the ridiculously high 14 WIS which, since you'd only be doing 4 Paladin, wouldn't be terribly useful except for Will save, which you already major in as a Bard.

For pre-epic split, I'd do either 12/4/4, or 11/4/5 and go for Epic Weapon Spec right at 21. Aside from the fighter feats (which are REALLY useful pre-epic), it also grants you +1 BAB over a 16/4 split. The downside, as Seven said, is the multiclass penalty which, if built right, would only be there for a whole 1 level on a Human.

I'm guessing, since you already have Divine Shield, that you're starting Paladin. Not something I would advise from a mechanical perspective, since that means you HAVE to have taken 11+ WIS which is, again, useless on a Bardadin. Starting either Bard or Fighter would nullify the need there.



If you're doing a Smiterdin, that's a very different build and Adalbrandt's player is correct that you won't have enough CHA for most of the smite feats. Those builds usually end up something like 16 Paladin/4 Bard or Rogue/10 Champion of Torm.

[Scurvy Cur]

Making the greatest use of a smite centric paladin requires starting with, as a rule, a minimum of 19 charisma, so you can hit 25 charisma by level 24, which is the absolute latest you want to start racking up the great smiting feats. You technically can do it with your current charisma score, but it will require taking a greater charisma feat or two in the low epic levels, but it will either limit the number of great smiting feats you can take, or force you to eschew epic weapon focus and armor skin, both of which are must-haves for a top tier epic melee character.

As mentioned by the previous posters, bardadin takes a heavy focus in bard, with paladin only featuring as a dip class for saves and divine might/shield. They are also relatively feat-rigorous, and it is on the point of feat selection that I see most charisma based melee bards fall apart. Your stat spread is a little problematic , but nothing that cannot be dealt with by some conscientious gear and feat choices.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Worth noting- with Harper Scout levels in epic levels, there is a special interaction where favored enemies can be exchanged for great charisma. I don't know how the team here feels about that (as I'm pretty certain that's not the PnP standard, but a lot of base NWN isn't), but assuming anything mechanically allowed is allowed unless otherwise posted, it is actually possible to get Great Smiting earlier than level 24- (edit)with gifts.

With that said, I'd strongly advise against making a smite build that is bard-based, in the first place. Your damage is based on your paladin levels- if you only have 4 paladin/CoT levels included in the build, great smiting is kind of a waste of an epic feat, IMO. Just take extra smiting for the increased amount of extra AB against evil foes and call it a day.

[Scurvy Cur]

Nobody here is advocating the use of a smiting bard build: there are two separate options being considered, one in which the OP tries to reconcile his lower than desired starting charisma with the great smite requirements, and one in which he gives up on them and tries for a bard build.

They are entirely different characters, with the only overlap between the two occurring in Jack's reference to bard use as the UMD and tumble dip for the build, of either 3 or 4 levels, to taste (though this is, I feel, suboptimal; the main advantage bard has over rogue is the application of spellcraft to saving throws, and if there is anything a paladin/cot does not need help with, it is saving throws. Better to grab rogue and evasion for this particular build).

[Seven Sons of Sin]

The problem with a Harper Scout smiter is feat starvation. Alertness and Iron Will, in addition to Power Attack, Divine Might and Divine Shield, really locks down your choices.

I wouldn't recommend going the Harper Scout route in conjunction with a bard/paladin or paladin/bard, unless you're doing it for RP reasons. I did it for that, and it still felt constraining from a mechanical standpoint. Particularly because Alertness and Iron Will are useless feats when you have Bard spells and Paladin +CHA saving throws.

edit: or, you go Harper Scout, to screw with people when a paladin can suddenly go invisible.

[miesny_jez]

Hi RamblerTeo,

Seven Sons of Sin and Jack Oat already written about how to build a Bardadin in general. Requirements and current issues (10 CON!!) with what You shown has already been discussed as well.

So I will add few things from another perspective.

I am a Bardadin player - my former main char - Baston is a Bard/DwarvenDefender/Paly build with a final level spread idea of: Bard 20/DD 6/ Paly 4 (currently lvl 24).

Feats which I have taken on this char which are non standard (for a Bardadin build) are: Craft Wand, Still Spell, SF:Transmute -> GSF:Transmute (later on planned).

Feats which are required for a Bardadin play: Curse Song, Power Attack + Divine Might, Lasting Inspiration.

Skills required (heavy investment): Perform, TAUNT, Discipline, Tumble, UMD, Spellcraft,
Skills WORTH to have (with some investment): Heal, Concentration, Open Lock, Disable Trap, Search, Craft Trap, Appraise, Listen,

I did not pursue the Smiting path for this char because in my opinion the Lasting Inspiration is simply more worth it then few (rarely usable and VERY costly) Smite attacks.
The second thing You will notice is the lack of Divine Shield - simply because as a DD + Bard this build is Dodge bonus capped (+20 Dodge AC).

Now what I want to point out is advantages and disadvantages of such a character, what can You expect from such a build.

Advantages:
- First of all Bardadin is a Universally good character - there are no gaping weaknesses in the character which would make You unable to go somewhere (ex.. low will saves)
- Great AC - Tumble + Bard Song + Haste = +14 Dodge AC just from Bard, means Your AC will always be stellar for a Melee build
- Fear Immunity
- Great saves
- Great damage and AB when fully buffed - with all buffs and debuffs You can apply You can easily top a typical fighter build
- no hassle UMD access
- Bard Song and Curse Song combo for everyone in Your party - trivializes any fight
- Bard Song bonus to skills! - You can be:a Rouge,a Merchant,a Healer,a Loremaster, a Spellidentifier,a Sneak-reveler,a Story-teller and of course a Group Entertainer any time when it is needed with a minimal skill investment
- Innate Lore bonus from Bard + Legend Lore - no need to learn any languages

Disadvantages and issues:
- Buff dependent
It's not on the level of Cleric of course, but as Bardadin You will need to buff.. a lot and to worse that You will have to buff often during a fight leaving You less time to actually fight.
- Dispells
Your reliance on buffs for melee fights means Dispells will be devastating to Your overall performance and sometimes even to Your survival
- Mediocre AB without buffs and debuffs
Reliance on Debuffs (Taunt+Curse Song) and Buffs (Warcry+Bard Song) means that Your AB is nothing spectacular without them. More often then not my character was standing in place and buffing.. while everyone else were already in fight
- Paladin RP limit - it maybe doesn't sound very problematic, but for me it was an issue few times, the fact that my char was a Paladin limited his options for interaction/decisions.


In overall I would strongly advised this build, don't get me wrong a Bardadin is a VERY STRONG combo for Arelith, just be prepared for the issues and decide how will You approach them with Your char.

Few things worth to point out:
- Wisdom at lvl 13 allows You to cast lvl 3 Paladin spells even if You are Paly lvl 4 - just add a spell slot Paly lvl 3 to an item and equip it. If You find an item with spell slot Paly lvl 4 and bump Your Wisdom to 14 You could even cast Holy Sword! Couple that with either Craft Wand or Scribe Scroll and You have an unlimited supply of very useful and unique spells (Bless Weapon, Deafening Clang, Divine Favor, Aura of Glory, Remove Paralysis, GMW, Remov Blindness/Deafness, Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, HOLY SWORD)
- Darkness is a Verbal only spell - Arcane Failure does not apply, You can cast with Your typical Tower shield equipped
- Find Traps spell - couple that with few points in Disable Trap and Your char can be a Rouge substitute thanks to Bard song skill bonus
- Taunt - USE IT, LOVE IT
- Defensive Casting mode can be turned on constantly thanks to Arelith modifications
- Lesser Spell Mantle scrolls are available at NPC vendors as well as Lesser Spell Breach scrolls
- Slow spell is underrated
- Ghostly Visage (and Etheral Visage) protects You against Grease spell slow effect while Your high saves will rarely fail You on Your own grease field
- Curse Song before Taunt for pro effects
- Greater Dispell is uncapped in Arelith
- Dismissal banishes summoning in the area
- Confusion - when in doubt, just cast it
- Gust of Wind is a ranged knockdown with FORTITUDE save
- And of course.. do some Singing/Story telling in the Inns from time to time - works great for Your RP and wallet

[Lorkas]

Tumble AC doesn't count as part of the +20 cap on dodge AC, though it is lost when flat-footed.

[miesny_jez]

Holy macaronni! You're right Lorkas Tumble doest not count towards Dodge cap..I could be using Divine Shield without any issues

The more You know!

[Lorkas]

Yea, when you said that you were capped I was scratching my head as to how you managed it... I got as far as 5 from bard song, 4 from haste, 1 from boots, and 4 from defensive stance. That might well keep you from getting a full boost from divine shield, but you could still pick up +6 from it.

That is yet another short-lived buff to cast though.