Underdark, Outcasts and Arelith.

[LurkingShadow]

As a decently new player, as of august last year. I do have a question as I dabbled a bit in the Underdark of late. Why is there so many Humans and other surface races down there as outcasts? But playing a surface Underdark race is frowned upon OOC and IC?

[In Sorrow We Trust]

playing surface outcasts is also frowned upon ooc and ic in my experienced, just slightly easier to get away with using clever disguises

[Inordinate]

Andunor is not an Underdark-only race region. If you've got gold, power, or something of value you can be as accepted as anyone else.

Surface settlements and the surface in general generally don't accept monsters because of their nature, practices, appearances, etc. The default stance to them is inverted between the two.

[LurkingShadow]

playing surface outcasts is also frowned upon ooc and ic in my experienced, just slightly easier to get away with using clever disguises

Much easier it is for sure. I see outcasts often just walking around.

Andunor is not an Underdark-only race region. If you've got gold, power, or something of value you can be as accepted as anyone else.

Surface settlements and the surface in general generally don't accept monsters because of their nature, practices, appearances, etc. The default stance to them is inverted between the two.

Why is it not mainly Underdark-only although? Isn't there plenty of outcast places? Andunor ICly, to my char looks like an underground slum in Waterdeep or something.

[The GrumpyCat]

The version of FR we're playing (3rd ed) has Monsters as pretty much entirely evil. There's a small amount of exceptions, but the majority of people know that Outcasts are (or are supposed to be) individuals who have commited or are at least accused of commiting crimes so awfully terrible that they have been cast out of society*. They would have to have reasons that civilised society - or large factions of it, cast them out so they decided their best bet was to try to make themsleves useful to the horrific nightmares down below.
Such monsters might murder outcasts sure - but then again these humans have no where else to go. They're too strong to be slaves, won't break - but why destroy what you can potentially use? And so outcasts live - being useful to the denizins of the dark, and sometimes, maybe, growing strong enough to be forces in their own right.

Adressing this point here:

But playing a surface Underdark race is frowned upon OOC and IC?

There's two aspects to think of:
1) The Meta Reason
-Arelith is set in 3.rd ed Dnd, as aformentioned, and there- whilst Surface Underdark Races (by which I mean Monsterious Races) gambling, frollcing, snuggling and living amongst humans/elves/dwarves/ect) do occur, they are VERY rare. And indeed, this concept works if kept VERY RARE. The problem is that there's not really a way to organically keep it Very Rare. If we allowed it, then I've little doubt that every third character you met would be a drow or a Kobold on the surface and this would be extremely immersion breaking to the setting we're trying to emulate.

2) The In Game Reason
Ok so step away from Arelith a moment. Be absolutly reallistic. Put yourself in this imaginary scenario.
You're on your computer one day when you hear a knock at the door. You open it, to find a large man in prison fatigues on the other side. He is covered in blood, tattoos line his arm, his head is shaven, he has a gun and a knife at his side, in the distance sirens wail. He says to you, 'Please. Let me in. I'm innocent, but the cops are after me!'
Keeping in mind this is me, asking the REAL you. Answer me honestly - would you let him in?
I think most people (myself included) would say 'No.' Even though the man might well be an innocent, good, kind soul just on the wrong side of the law, his outward appearence does not suggest that at all. And whilst of couse predjudice is bad, when it comes to a situation where it looks like someone might very well try and kill/torture/steal/assault you - it's really hard to put that in effect.

What's the point of this example?

We, as players, know that if our characters die - we can just respawn. We know if NPCs die, they'll be raised/reappear later. This is a conciet of the game that exists to make it playable, and allow us - to an extent, to be big d**n heroes.

But our CHARACTERS, and certainly the NPCS certainly DO NOT know that.

So even if our characters are insane enough to entirely trust someone who by appearences is exactly the sort of creature who, nine times out of ten, is out to mess you up in a vareity of interesting and perminent ways - the NPCs of various settlments certainly would NOT.

So those are the reasons.

Why is it not mainly Underdark-only although? Isn't there plenty of outcast places? Andunor ICly, to my char looks like an underground slum in Waterdeep or something.

I mean part of the problem here, IMO, is a lot of the Really Evil Stuff that should theoretically happen there, is way above the T rating of the server, and would also just be increadibly upsetting, for certain players. So we sort of have to ask players to just work on the assumption that it /is/ that evil, without showing the evil going on.

*Que the long and ongoing discussion about Outcasts, how the system is wierd, outcast tags, what makes an outcast, ect ect ect... which I admit is a problem, but it is as it is.

[LurkingShadow]

The version of FR we're playing (3rd ed) has Monsters as pretty much entirely evil. There's a small amount of exceptions, but the majority of people know that Outcasts are (or are supposed to be) individuals who have commited or are at least accused of commiting crimes so awfully terrible that they have been cast out of society*. They would have to have reasons that civilised society - or large factions of it, cast them out so they decided their best bet was to try to make themsleves useful to the horrific nightmares down below.
Such monsters might murder outcasts sure - but then again these humans have no where else to go. They're too strong to be slaves, won't break - but why destroy what you can potentially use? And so outcasts live - being useful to the denizins of the dark, and sometimes, maybe, growing strong enough to be forces in their own right.

Adressing this point here:

But playing a surface Underdark race is frowned upon OOC and IC?

There's two aspects to think of:
1) The Meta Reason
-Arelith is set in 3.rd ed Dnd, as aformentioned, and there- whilst Surface Underdark Races (by which I mean Monsterious Races) gambling, frollcing, snuggling and living amongst humans/elves/dwarves/ect) do occur, they are VERY rare. And indeed, this concept works if kept VERY RARE. The problem is that there's not really a way to organically keep it Very Rare. If we allowed it, then I've little doubt that every third character you met would be a drow or a Kobold on the surface and this would be extremely immersion breaking to the setting we're trying to emulate.

2) The In Game Reason
Ok so step away from Arelith a moment. Be absolutly reallistic. Put yourself in this imaginary scenario.
You're on your computer one day when you hear a knock at the door. You open it, to find a large man in prison fatigues on the other side. He is covered in blood, tattoos line his arm, his head is shaven, he has a gun and a knife at his side, in the distance sirens wail. He says to you, 'Please. Let me in. I'm innocent, but the cops are after me!'
Keeping in mind this is me, asking the REAL you. Answer me honestly - would you let him in?
I think most people (myself included) would say 'No.' Even though the man might well be an innocent, good, kind soul just on the wrong side of the law, his outward appearence does not suggest that at all. And whilst of couse predjudice is bad, when it comes to a situation where it looks like someone might very well try and kill/torture/steal/assault you - it's really hard to put that in effect.

What's the point of this example?

We, as players, know that if our characters die - we can just respawn. We know if NPCs die, they'll be raised/reappear later. This is a conciet of the game that exists to make it playable, and allow us - to an extent, to be big d**n heroes.

But our CHARACTERS, and certainly the NPCS certainly DO NOT know that.

So even if our characters are insane enough to entirely trust someone who by appearences is exactly the sort of creature who, nine times out of ten, is out to mess you up in a vareity of interesting and perminent ways - the NPCs of various settlments certainly would NOT.

So those are the reasons.

Why is it not mainly Underdark-only although? Isn't there plenty of outcast places? Andunor ICly, to my char looks like an underground slum in Waterdeep or something.

I mean part of the problem here, IMO, is a lot of the Really Evil Stuff that should theoretically happen there, is way above the T rating of the server, and would also just be increadibly upsetting, for certain players. So we sort of have to ask players to just work on the assumption that it /is/ that evil, without showing the evil going on.

*Que the long and ongoing discussion about Outcasts, how the system is wierd, outcast tags, what makes an outcast, ect ect ect... which I admit is a problem, but it is as it is.

It is all good points, but why would the Duergar, Drow or even Svirfneblin invite the prisoner? Drow and Duergar are not known to share even between themself, Why would they let Humans and other surfacers peacock strut around their home turf like I seen some do on Areliths Underdark? They are not really known to be humble and supportive of others, not even themselves most of the time.

Cause I wish to turn the table around, a Drow and Kobold on the surface is immersion breaking. Even if most adventurers seen a thousan Drow and Kobolds or other races by now and battle them. But then people can just roll into a city and ignore NPC guards and kill people. Thats also an immersion break (and a rule break). But the proper odd one is, a Human that been outcasted by their own steps inside Andunor and...is welcomed like nothing happended? Nothing odd at all? Why is he here? How f'ed up is he if he walks inside Andunor? THE caring, soft types up top threw him out! He must be a proper madman.

EDIT: I just find it a bit odd that its one way only. I would rather see less outcast surfacers in the UD and more suspicious glares thrown upon them.

I know this topic is a complex one and won't change. Perhaps I have not either seen the full picture but I think tis interesting to ask and question to get a better understanding of things.

[The GrumpyCat]

I mean the main thing to remember is Andunor isn't like Menzobaranzan or Ched Nased or Grakeslough (or however you spell that) it's Skullport. A hodgepodge of races, both surface and underdark. That's very much the flavour that's being aimed at here.

But the proper odd one is, a Human that been outcasted by their own steps inside Andunor and...is welcomed like nothing happended? Nothing odd at all? Why is he here? How f'ed up is he if he walks inside Andunor? THE caring, soft types up top threw him out! He must be a proper madman.

Ok so option
1) Enslave this wierd human - sure, but he seems proper rough and tough, not very amenable to taking the collar. You'd need to try and break him - and that might not work. And it means shedding blood. Fighting is well and good, but best done if you think you'll win, and this fellow doesn't look like the sort to back down. (This is a bit of metagaming here I'll admit, but it's probably the good sort.)
2) Kill him - again this means a fight with someone who might be a bit formidable, and it could be a waste.
3) Or... make use of him? If even the surface won't take him, then he must have something... interesting about him. Something you can use. Andunor always needs wood, for example, and the surface is plentiful for that. He can go up there relivitly safely and gather materials the underdark can't have. And whilst he probably won't be able to live in surface settlments, with a good disguise he can certainly pass through them well enough, gathering information that you can't get. Maybe even working as an assassin - slipping past surface guards where you couldn't. Could be useful...

And of course the meta reason was - not enough players really seemed interested in playing pure monster races, especially not segregated as they were (or seemed to be?) By throwing them in a hodge podge together, and also adding human outcasts and surfacers to spice (back in the old days, no one on the surface much cared about pit town, because it never ever intersected with them. Now with Outcasts living there, and with humans and surface races being allowed down there to visits, it's become a lot more relevent to the narrative of the surface, and there's a lot more traffic down there. Basically since Andunor the Underdark has always had a lot more people about, that includes humans. So it's a healthier environment to roleplay in, IMO.

[LurkingShadow]

I mean the main thing to remember is Andunor isn't like Menzobaranzan or Ched Nased or Grakeslough (or however you spell that) it's Skullport. A hodgepodge of races, both surface and underdark. That's very much the flavour that's being aimed at here.

But the proper odd one is, a Human that been outcasted by their own steps inside Andunor and...is welcomed like nothing happended? Nothing odd at all? Why is he here? How f'ed up is he if he walks inside Andunor? THE caring, soft types up top threw him out! He must be a proper madman.

Ok so option
1) Enslave this wierd human - sure, but he seems proper rough and tough, not very amenable to taking the collar. You'd need to try and break him - and that might not work. And it means shedding blood. Fighting is well and good, but best done if you think you'll win, and this fellow doesn't look like the sort to back down. (This is a bit of metagaming here I'll admit, but it's probably the good sort.)
2) Kill him - again this means a fight with someone who might be a bit formidable, and it could be a waste.
3) Or... make use of him? If even the surface won't take him, then he must have something... interesting about him. Something you can use. Andunor always needs wood, for example, and the surface is plentiful for that. He can go up there relivitly safely and gather materials the underdark can't have. And whilst he probably won't be able to live in surface settlments, with a good disguise he can certainly pass through them well enough, gathering information that you can't get. Maybe even working as an assassin - slipping past surface guards where you couldn't. Could be useful...

And of course the meta reason was - not enough players really seemed interested in playing pure monster races, especially not segregated as they were (or seemed to be?) By throwing them in a hodge podge together, and also adding human outcasts and surfacers to spice (back in the old days, no one on the surface much cared about pit town, because it never ever intersected with them. Now with Outcasts living there, and with humans and surface races being allowed down there to visits, it's become a lot more relevent to the narrative of the surface, and there's a lot more traffic down there. Basically since Andunor the Underdark has always had a lot more people about, that includes humans. So it's a healthier environment to roleplay in, IMO.

I will frankly say, im not that keen on Andunor as a Skullport inspired city but it explains the situation at the least.

[Bees in Space]

The past Underdark settlements like Grond, Udos, and Pit Town were strictly UD races only and the population numbers on that side of the server suffered for it. It was vanishingly rare for them to be anywhere near as heavily trafficked as Andunor usually is. It was a dev decision to open the city up to surface visitors and the alternative probably would've been to remove playable UD races entirely and reduce the whole place into high level pve content for surface players.

[Hazard]

Pit Town was cool. Didn't matter if it was empty because it was so small. Even having 5 active players made it really fun for me.

[Rei_Jin]

Another reason why humans can be in Andunor, is that there are a number of human-like races (Yuan-ti, Rakshasa, Deep Imaskari, etc) who can and do live in Andunor.

If all humans were not permitted to live in Andunor, then these races would be easily and immediately identified as being NOT human, and so you would end up with surfacers coming down stealthed to see who lives in Andunor and looks human, to tag them as being a monstrous race in disguise.

(Yes, I know Deep Imaskari are not monsters, but they are monstrous to a degree... they're a special sub-race of humans, yadda yadda).

TLDR: Banning humans outs a lot of human looking races, so allowing them gives a crowd for the monsters to hide in.

[Hazard]

Humans are the most monstrous race of all.