Seeking Bard / Barbarian Building Advice

[Tathkar Eisgrim]

I have a character in my vault I am considering reviving from their slumber. However, I have got myself in quite a muddle trying to work out how to balance the combination of classes - Barbarian and Bard.

The original intention was to take 15+ levels of Barbarian; a minimum level of Bard (just to represent singing in combat) with some room to spare. Unfortunately the character is 'squishy' as hell in a solo environment (perhaps I'm spoilt having savoured a Dwarven Defender) which has killed my enthusiasm some. Current Statistics: Str 16, Dex 12, Con 19, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 14. Current Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Knockdown, Resist Fire(! - no understanding why this is on char sheet), Extra Music, Improved Crit: Shortsword.

Primary Class is Bard. Current Levels: Bard 7 / Barbarian 12.
Fully prepared to de-level to start again.

Concept: Character is intended to be scary and intimidating; so comparisons of Terrifying Rage vs Fear abilities of Barbarian vs Bard appreciated.

Thoughts and advice welcome. I was somewhat naive in my choices when the character was first being played over 2 yrs ago...

[Hunter548]

I personally would delevel or remake all the way, and go something akin to barb 22/bard 4/fighter 4. Take 21 Con and the rest in STR, pick up mighty rage, terrifying rage, etc. Pick up the epic DR feats if you can as well.

[The Rambling Midget]

One thing you'll need to consider when reworking this concept is that most of the mid to high level NPC casters have been retuned to start every battle with some form of dispelling. I imagine this was meant to cause problems for characters who take only a few levels of an infinite caster class for the buffs. What this means for you is that, unless you're really good with corner hiding or sniping, you're going to get dispelled every time you encounter a NPC caster, because of your low CL, and that means running out of buffs after about three or four mobs.

You could stick with the 15/15 level distribution for GMW, and use debuffs in combat instead of buffing yourself. This is also enough to give you a +4 AC boost from Bard Song. GSF: Enchantment will give you pretty decent War Cry, Balagarn's, Sleep, and Hold Monster DCs. (remember that Sleep has been modified to work on any creature with hit dice less than or equal to your CL) On the Barbarian side, this will also bump you up to Greater Rage at 15.

If you use a Greensteel Shield, Greensteel Breastplate, Elven Boots, and an Elven Helmet, and use the standard buff potions, you should be able to get your AC near 40. Plenty for the level you're at. That and 262HP should be more than enough to let you solo. Given your defensive potential, though, you should really consider pairing up with a squishy two-hand Weapon Master or Evo Mage and using -guard to keep them alive while they do the heavy hitting.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Really don't understand how this class is at all squishy, even if you get dispelled.

Are you using a Greensteel Breastplate and Large Shield? Are you maxing Tumble? Do you always have Mage Armour prepared?

Barbarians fundamentally have lower AC, but they make up for it in might. That being said, they have the most HP- how much do you have? Because it's very reasonable to take a quarter health in an serious encounter, or more. Barbarians aren't supposed to be built around being untouchable.

So define "squishy"?

Also, take Expertise.

[Tathkar Eisgrim]

No tumble or expertise currently in the build.

Define Squishy... hmm, damage output with a masterly damask shortsword was not punchy enough compared to the incoming damage. One of the last battles I had, was in fighting solo against the harpies on the bridge approaching Brogendenstein. My character died in the encounter. Bad luck? Quite possibly. However I took it more as a sign that the current build is flawed (or quite possibly the combo of Bard / Barbarian not mature into its strengths).

I am currently considering a spellcaster Bard / COT combination, 16 / ?? and throwing out the Barbarian altogether.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Why are you using a short sword on a STR-based build? Why don't you invest tumble? Or expertise? Do you have UMD?

Class structure will not amend inappropriate mechanics.

Edit: extra music is also useless. As is great cleave (there are better feats to take). You also don't have Weapon Focus? Why go for great cleave before improved knockdown? No toughness?

[yellowcateyes]

Tumble is essential for melee types as it's a major source of AC. A character with bard levels should ensure that tumble is always at the highest multiplier of 5 allowable.

Bard spells also go a long way towards survivability. Mage Armor is a great long-term buff, Cat's Grace helps fill up your DEX stat in case it isn't already at the max bonus permitted for your armor. Displacement / Improved Invisibility and Ghostly Visage help you survive tough fights. Also, Haste.

Really, any melee class combined with Bard shouldn't be squishy. You may wish to consider rebuilding if you're having trouble with the mobs at your level, as some early build choices cannot be undone.

[Tathkar Eisgrim]

Really, any melee class combined with Bard shouldn't be squishy. You may wish to consider rebuilding if you're having trouble with the mobs at your level, as some early build choices cannot be undone.

Absolutely. I made a poor choice in forgetting Tumble and Expertise.

Using the changes recommended I have made a decent attempt at a build pursuing terrifying rage, but it seems to lose a lot in bardic magic in the pursuit. I was seeking mobility to act as a skirmisher you see (i was after clarity, expeditious retreat and haste).

Any last comments on terrifying rage vs core bard abilities (a 6/24 as opposed to a 15/15 build?)

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I don't know where the 6/24 comes from.

For Terrifying Rage, you go 15/15. If you want to be bard, I see no benefit from that many barbarian levels, so I'd recommend 20 bard/4 barbarian/6 fighter.

[Tathkar Eisgrim]

I don't know where the 6/24 comes from.

For Terrifying Rage, you go 15/15. If you want to be bard, I see no benefit from that many barbarian levels, so I'd recommend 20 bard/4 barbarian/6 fighter.

My bad. 3 levels of bard + 21 levels barbarian to get terrifying rage at 24 +6 bard to take to 30.

I don't understand how you can get terrifying rage on a 15 /15 build.

[The Rambling Midget]

I don't understand how you can get terrifying rage on a 15 /15 build.

Take your 15th Barbarian level at level 24, 27, or 30. You need 25 Intimidate, which can be achieved at 22, 21st level, which is already taken care of, and Greater Rage, which you get at Barbarian level 15.

The best part is that it uses total character levels to determine effectiveness.

[yellowcateyes]