-polymorph ?

[Flameborn]

I hate to say it, but that build is ~significantly~ worse then just going a cleric/fighter/rogue.
The only change would be the HP on a battlecleric.

Polymorph is unable to damage any build, with a max of 37 ab and unable to do damage since its scripted to use +0 1d3 fists, its not a match for anything, its just a much needed survivability to a druid that normally has NO way to escape or keep a melee from just KD spamming them to the ground.

The posted build spec was actually directly in response to this comment, which is patently incorrect.

When even a pure dex user with 0 str mod can gain a +3 ab 1d6+12 damage weapon +4 divine and +1d6 temp with the addition of a tiny 4 fighter levels, I do feel its rather justified to the totems 1d3+14 with 0 enhancement, and may we not forget the 6 attacks for dual wielding against the totems 3.

There is no druid in history who had enough ab or damage to do a damn thing in melee compared to any cleric or spellblade build. Druid doesnt get a single spell that helps their melee, at all.

And to this comment, which seems to somehow imply that druids don't get to buff for melee (premon, stoneskin, bull's strength, and aura of vitality are on the line, waiting for an answer).

So a druid gets a max +8 strength buff, unless they have gear, which it won't stack on. Anyone with UMD has all of these spells at full disposal.

Polymorph is the only thing giving a pure druid any ability at all to survive.

<Extended explanation of why you don't equip any AC items or buffs on Wicket here>

With maxed gear, +4 ac armor, +1 boots, +1 cloak and +4 shield (large even though she cant carry it without str buffs) A few of those are only available as artifacts of the highest level, even with full buffs (barkskin and perhaps a cats potion) she'd have a glorious ac of...30.

30 ac, with artifacts. If we add a 5 round haste pot we'll nab a nifty 34, and a 36 with vitality.

I surely hope I don't need to explain to you why 36 maxed ac is garbage on a server where the minimum ab is in the 40's.

And to this one, which implies that druids are super fragile special flowers, and points to what I can only assume is a criminally undergeared caster form as the proof.

The point Lorkas has been bringing up, and which you seem to be attempting to hide in a field of strawmen, is that totem druids have a perfectly capable melee form that does not require monk to be effective. When you can effortlessly swap between a caster that pulls down the highest DCs of any class and a servicable melee mode that will outsurvive and outlast the majority of Arelith's meleers, and give it dragonshape and give it epic gruin and epic hellball, you may have given a class too many features (and yes, the above mentioned build can pick up every last option listed).

Accept that you can get even higher DC's then a raven on a cleric/COT. (See 51 dc implosion build)

And that it would be beaten by an cleric, weaponmaster, rogue or fighter build within 5 rounds, if thats your idea of "capable" then I suppose a level 10 character is equally capable in your mind.

And this is using a 100% intentionally gimped build for the class, which ignores multiclass option for which it was designed (Might need TRM to dig up a quote here, but I distinctly remember Mithreas explaining that Totem form was designed with the full understanding that 99% of them would take monk, and balanced around that).

Since we keep pointing to clerics, I'll address this.

You can do better with Cleric, but not without having to buff for 3 rounds or more to make it happen, and being limited to being able to top your numbers out 1-4 times per day (most of the highest battlecleric numbers are achieved using a 1/day domain power).

You only need one spell, Greater Sanctuary.

The advantage of the druid setup is that you press a single button, the activation of full combat readiness is instantaneous, and you have literally no limit on it.

So give it a cooldown and take its temp hp

And you can add dragonshape completely for free.

So nerf dragonshape?

And we're still happily free of any conditions that let us blame monk, rather than raven totem, as the problem.

[Morderon]

I still have a problem with -polymorph as well; already solved however. I have a hard time honestly recommending non-pathed druids now given the animal companions update; given damage was suppose to be a totem's weakness, and the -polymporph update.

Raven's, in their current form, feel like they should be a normal reward to me for similar reasons why the SR gift became one. Though if it wasn't raven it would probably be bat.


Going off tangent here:

What if non-totem druids received totem forms, no specific animal they hit bear they get bear totem, at level 27; when they can no longer multiclass.

Totems however no longer receive the -4 on str/dex/con upon hitting level 27; when they can no longer multiclass.

Because.. even without the stat drain, a druid's base form isn't much without a multiclass.

[Norfildor]

I don't think that the issue is with vanilla druids being too weak. They are comparably powerful to the other classes. If the matter lies with the totem druids being so good that given a choice between a totem druid and a vanilla one is no choice at all, then obviously the totem druid is too good and needs to be toned down.

Secondly, IMHO the comparison between clerics, mages and druids is a fallacy. While it is true that clerics can reach stats comparable to a polymorphed druid, it takes them time to do that while the druid can do it instantly and the buffs can be dispelled while a polymorph cannot. So yes, while it might be true that you get essentially the same thing, one can be done instantly and without any counters while the other requires time expenditure and can be countered.

Thirdly, the animal companion - arguments are being made about the companion not being as strong as other classes (say, a fighter for example) of the same level. Firstly, this statement can only be made in regards to PvP as the main difference lies with the skill of an actual human player being far supperior to the AI of the summon and furthermore - this should not have been a contest at all in the first place, since the vast majority of all summons that PCs have access to are essentially lackluster and non-viable choices for the purposes of PvP. Why should the druid have access to something more powerful?


My suggestions to rectify the druid's "OPness": firstly, burn the animal companion with fire or whatever. Just make sure that it's moderately good for the purposes of PvE at best and virtually useless in PvP. Secondly, timer on polymorphs. Thirdly, give the druid massive movement speed penalties while polymorphed - if their undispellable HP, AC and AB becomes essentially one third higher than that of any other character, make them slow and cumbersome - they turned into something big and unwieldy after all.

[Flameborn]

Im not totally sure what you mean Mord, can you elaborate?

[Flameborn]

I don't think that the issue is with vanilla druids being too weak. They are comparably powerful to the other classes. If the matter lies with the totem druids being so good that given a choice between a totem druid and a vanilla one is no choice at all, then obviously the totem druid is too good and needs to be toned down.

This is true, which is why non-totem druid needs a large buff, to bring druid in line with clerics, mages, weaponmasters and totems.

Secondly, IMHO the comparison between clerics, mages and druids is a fallacy. While it is true that clerics can reach stats comparable to a polymorphed druid, it takes them time to do that while the druid can do it instantly and the buffs can be dispelled while a polymorph cannot. So yes, while it might be true that you get essentially the same thing, one can be done instantly and without any counters while the other requires time expenditure and can be countered.

Mages and clerics, when buffed, are far, far more powerful then any polymorphed druid, and with greater sanctuary, they have an uncounterable way to get those buffs cast.

Thirdly, the animal companion - arguments are being made about the companion not being as strong as other classes (say, a fighter for example) of the same level. Firstly, this statement can only be made in regards to PvP as the main difference lies with the skill of an actual human player being far supperior to the AI of the summon and furthermore - this should not have been a contest at all in the first place, since the vast majority of all summons that PCs have access to are essentially lackluster and non-viable choices for the purposes of PvP. Why should the druid have access to something more powerful?

The animal companion is the only thing keeping a druid from being stomped at everything, since druids, even with totem shape, have abysmall discipline, since its not a class skill, AND the fact that polymorph doesnt include your gear beyond a single items. This means you can't build yourself to have discipline without cross classing into monk or fighter.

My suggestions to rectify the druid's "OPness": firstly, burn the animal companion with fire or whatever. Just make sure that it's moderately good for the purposes of PvE at best and virtually useless in PvP. Secondly, timer on polymorphs. Thirdly, give the druid massive movement speed penalties while polymorphed - if their undispellable HP, AC and AB becomes essentially one third higher than that of any other character, make them slow and cumbersome - they turned into something big and unwieldy after all.

Im not going to explain why making a bird that flies into something slower then a running man is completely stupid.

[Norfildor]

@Flameborn: You are obviously biased and invested in the matter. You should take a step back and gain a little bit more objective perspective. Perhaps try playing some of those "OP" mages, clerics or weaponmasters for a change and you'll see that there is a rock-paper-scissors relationship between them, while the paths are designed to make them better at PvE and worse at PvP or vice versa. That's not the case with druids however - their endgame is tied to one of the most powerful feats in the game (with regards to Arelith's magic item power level setting) that essentially allows them to break out of the rock-paper-scissors ballance and steamroll right through it, while their paths are designed to ensure that they reach their endgame faster and more easily.

From what you wrote down I am reading that your arguments stem from the fact that you've made a "lackluster" druid build by not making all the cheesy go-to choices. IMHO that only further skews your perspective as far as this discussion goes, because while your character might need a broken pet not to get trampled over by everything (which just simply isn't true, let's not get too crazy with the hyperbole here, mkay?), a raven totem monk dragonshaper doesn't - they just get to enjoy an extra broken feature of their character for the funzies.

Im not going to explain why making a bird that flies into something slower then a running man is completely stupid.

Remove birds as choosable totems - problem fixed. They can't really fly anyway and seeing them float on the spot is immersion breaking

[Montaugh]

Raven totem is no longer an issue, with the new update they no longer gain +4 wis but +2 int and some skill bonuses. This brings raven in line with the other totem choices. Thank you Mith.

Druids are still a lackluster choice compared to Totems but at least they are no longer as bad of a choice of not going Raven.

[Lorkas]

I'm not sure precisely what's causing this (perhaps a combination of factors), but this thread really makes me think of Motorboat/Team Stupid/River Moonchild. Does anyone know what became of that player?

[Scurvy Cur]

Last I knew, he was playing ArcheAge. We wound up guilded together completely on accident.

[Dinosaur Space Program]

I have mostly stayed out of this argument due to A) length and B) I am a player of vanilla druids due to my thematic distaste of totems when it comes to my own RP.

However, I am glad that the wisdom bonus has been changed on raven. No totem should have ever had a wisdom bonus for this reason and things have gotten quite out of hand because of it. So yes! Thank you Mith. I am glad it has been remedied.

[Morderon]

Im not totally sure what you mean Mord, can you elaborate?

On which?

I don't think that the issue is with vanilla druids being too weak. They are comparably powerful to the other classes.

To a point I disagree with you there. However, the idea of giving normal druids totem shape at level 28+ was less due to the fact that they're weaker and more so the choice to remain pure I find is more of a drawback then the -4 strength/con/dex.

The idea of extending such to totems, which I'm not exactly keen on, (though i'd probably force them to wait until level 30 as they do get other bonuses..) is due to totem design not only is monk a great multiclass; it's encouraged. Low strength so carrying about a shield/armor is a pain. Con and Dexterity lowers defense. No improved unarmed strike built in.

[Flameborn]

My gripe isnt really with monk druids, is that monk druids themselves are ~only~ available to LN characters, which massively limits the kind of people that can rp them.

[Mithreas]

Troll much?

OK, killing this thread now. It's served its useful purpose... and then some.