New spell availability.

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Orian_666
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New spell availability.

Post by Orian_666 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:55 pm

Just a simple question, kind of a request..
But what's the word on how these spells will be available to current characters?

For example a Cleric and Druid should automatically have their spells in their spellbooks, they get all their spells of each level when they level up so that's fine.

A sorcerer need only drop one level and they can shift around their learned spells at will and quite easily.

But Wizards, if they drop a level they can only learn two spells, everything else will be from scrolls. Now the update states that the new spells will be added as scrolls eventually which is fine, but vendors don't sell scrolls over spell level 5 (some 6 I think) so that means we're going to have to rely on new wizards leveling up and giving us scribed scrolls to learn the new spells, that or hope we get them as a drop, which may or may not happen at all.
My main concern about this is that once you hit 30 on a wizard, like I have, it's generally a good path to RP "filling your spellbook", I know that I spent a lot of time and money on filling my spellbook, and my character is a fairly well established wizard on the surface, well known for his time spent as one. It seems kinda weird to have to RP with some fresh blooded wizard to get some spells off them because I neglected to learn them while levelling or while I was pursuing getting all the spells I could to fill my book. RP wise it doesn't make a lot of sense for my character.

So, would it be at all possible to grant any level 30 wizard (or 27/3 of course) that already has/had a "full spellbook" a copy of each of these new spells to add to said book? I'm loving the additions and it's great to see, but it'd also be nice if there were some concessions for the sake of the RP that some of us have had well established for quite some time.

Thank you.

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Re: New spell availability.

Post by ActionReplay » Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:11 pm

Orian_666 wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:55 pm
Just a simple question, kind of a request..
But what's the word on how these spells will be available to current characters?

For example a Cleric and Druid should automatically have their spells in their spellbooks, they get all their spells of each level when they level up so that's fine.

A sorcerer need only drop one level and they can shift around their learned spells at will and quite easily.

But Wizards, if they drop a level they can only learn two spells, everything else will be from scrolls. Now the update states that the new spells will be added as scrolls eventually which is fine, but vendors don't sell scrolls over spell level 5 (some 6 I think) so that means we're going to have to rely on new wizards leveling up and giving us scribed scrolls to learn the new spells, that or hope we get them as a drop, which may or may not happen at all.
My main concern about this is that once you hit 30 on a wizard, like I have, it's generally a good path to RP "filling your spellbook", I know that I spent a lot of time and money on filling my spellbook, and my character is a fairly well established wizard on the surface, well known for his time spent as one. It seems kinda weird to have to RP with some fresh blooded wizard to get some spells off them because I neglected to learn them while levelling or while I was pursuing getting all the spells I could to fill my book. RP wise it doesn't make a lot of sense for my character.

So, would it be at all possible to grant any level 30 wizard (or 27/3 of course) that already has/had a "full spellbook" a copy of each of these new spells to add to said book? I'm loving the additions and it's great to see, but it'd also be nice if there were some concessions for the sake of the RP that some of us have had well established for quite some time.

Thank you.
That's the issue of adding new spells and our restrictions on selling only low-mid tier circle spells on NPC merchants. For now you have to rely on new wizards or sorcs scribing these spells for you as I don't think giving these spells for free as a good idea. Though I guess that is to DM discretion or if Irongron has any say in this.

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Re: New spell availability.

Post by Orian_666 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:21 pm

It may be a good idea for me to approach it IC then, when they become available that is.
I might get Paddy to ask the new Tower Archmage for the scrolls, for a price i'd imagine =p
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Re: New spell availability.

Post by Skarain » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:11 am

Just my two cents.

Sometimes, its the completely nobody who invents some new stuff, that the existing professor overlooked entirely.

I know of one such story in real life but can't remember it from the top of my mind.

My advise is; despite playing an already established wizard, allow yourself the moment of having overlooked some new discovery and now have to acquire it from those lesser than you, by third hand if neccessary to avoid losing face.

In the end, it is just a minor, temporary inconvenience.

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Re: New spell availability.

Post by Seekeepeek » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:13 am

Skarain wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:11 am

I know of one such story in real life but can't remember it from the top of my mind.
Alice ball perhaps?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Ball

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Re: New spell availability.

Post by Terenfel » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:04 am

easy.. you drop one level (1xp below level up), wait 0-6min gain the level and gain two spells you want to have, scribe 1 scroll of each spell, then drop 1 xp below level again, repeat too you have all the spells you want to have. then keep the level and learn all the spells from the scrolls you made.

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Re: New spell availability.

Post by monkeywithstick » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:07 am

Terenfel wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:04 am
easy.. you drop one level (1xp below level up), wait 0-6min gain the level and gain two spells you want to have, scribe 1 scroll of each spell, then drop 1 xp below level again, repeat too you have all the spells you want to have. then keep the level and learn all the spells from the scrolls you made.
Isn't that a rules breach?
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Re: New spell availability.

Post by Terenfel » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:14 am

i dont play a wizard.. but seems like the way to fix it.. also seems cheesy yes, but cant seem to find a rule that say you may not do it? (but will now spend some time to look at the wiki for the rules)

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Re: New spell availability.

Post by Terenfel » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:23 am

guess you might be right.. going to the wiki list of commands -losexp references to the update where they say you may not exploit this command, not making any examples of what is a exploit.. but they do log it what you do with it.. so until there is a ruling here.. do it at you own risk and i guess a DM will get in touch with you if it is a exploit.

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Re: New spell availability.

Post by The GrumpyCat » Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:09 pm

I will discuss this with the team - but honestly I would see this as a bit of an exploit yeah.
This too shall pass.

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Re: New spell availability.

Post by DM Axis » Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:13 pm

Also, we are planning on adding scrolls and the like to various merchants and loot tables.
While it's exciting to have the new spells added, please do not delevel to attain the new spells this way.
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Re: New spell availability.

Post by Queen Titania » Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:53 pm

To concur with the above two: If you are a wizard, do not -losexp to get these spells, we will slap you for exploiting. If you already have, consider this a heads up to undo your error.
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Re: New spell availability.

Post by triaddraykin » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:34 pm

The error can't be undone for those who already have a full spellbook. Upon levelling, if you have spells available, you MUST pick two of them. OK is greyed out otherwise. What is to be done in these cases?
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Re: New spell availability.

Post by triaddraykin » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:59 pm

Stay at 29 until you get two scrolls, do not learn the scrolls, then contact the DM team taking those two spells during the levelling process.
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Re: New spell availability.

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:06 pm

DM Titania wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:53 pm
To concur with the above two: If you are a wizard, do not -losexp to get these spells, we will slap you for exploiting. If you already have, consider this a heads up to undo your error.
triaddraykin wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:34 pm
The error can't be undone for those who already have a full spellbook. Upon levelling, if you have spells available, you MUST pick two of them. OK is greyed out otherwise. What is to be done in these cases?
Triaddraykin is correct, and I also have an epic level wizard elf on a shelf that I may losexp on some day before I roll him - does this means wizards are not allowed to -losexp at all in the wake of the recent update? Why is a level two wizard who delivers a half dozen packages a more viable candidate for a new spell than an epic level one who drops XP and chooses to focus on said new area of study?

For clarity: I can easily acknowledge Cheeseball factor in dropping 1 xp below a level and regaining it just for a spell, but I can't see a valid reason that it's any different from a level 28+ character de-leveling to 27 to change/add a second/third class as their needs demand. In both cases you're giving up something you had learned for something else you want to learn. The restriction of spell selection not benefiting seems unique, and does not affect all caster classes equally.

I absolutely agree dropping a level and gaining it to scribe a (stack of) scroll(s), delevel again, and take the other spell is cheating, as you are then not making the trade of "what I chose to learn," and are in fact probably profiting greatly off of it, but a blanket ban off of taking these spells when re-leveling from -losexp without any context seems heavy-handed.
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Re: New spell availability.

Post by Orian_666 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:11 pm

Terrible judgement call imo.
I could absolutely understand calling someone out if they did it multiple times to get all of the spells, especially with no RP behind it, but to tell a level 30 wizard;
"Hey, how dare you think you can learn something new on your own without the help of someone else, the very same way you learned most of the other spells you know. You're level 30 didn't you know, you're not allowed to continue to grow, develop, and learn without the aid of others!! Even if you 'roleplay' it out, I mean what do you think this is? An RP server? *Scoffs*"
"Oh, uh.... please ignore that Cleric and Druid that just happened to wake up and know how to cast a shit load of new spells, nothing to see here." -.-

It makes zero sense to not allow it to be done a single time, especially if it's properly RP'd out, and especially considering Sorcerers and Bards can do it, apparently, without any RP at all.

I've been wracking my brain here for the last while and honestly I can't think of a single logical reason to disallow this. I understand that the -losexp command isn't to be exploited, but I don't at all see this as an exploit when it's properly RP'd out, taking time to study some ancient text, document, or rune work. Or travelling somewhere on the mainland to learn a couple new spells and the trip/effort/work left you a bit tired and worn out so you can't scribe scrolls for others for a little while until you regain your energy.

No, instead our characters, wizards that are just as capable of learning something new as the next generation of wizards, have to sit around and wait for them to come along and be all like;
"A new spell I never heard of, how strange, I must have simply missed it during the last few decades where I have literally been at the peak of arcane community on this island, clearly i'm an absolute bloody moron or something....."

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Re: New spell availability.

Post by The GrumpyCat » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:27 pm

We believe that there is more interesting and genuine rp from new characters taking these spells, and sharing it in a genuine and fun way at early levels than old characters using a work about to having 'known all along.' We want to encourage new characters with fresh outlooks and stories, and to give them something neat.

Whilst this does apply to sorcs and bards too, it is worse with wizards because they can spew out endless scrolls, and we can very much see this as being an ego stroking exercise for those that, frankly, do not need their ego stroked. (No names in mind, this is a generality).

Playing an old character gives certain legacy perks, but it should also have definate drawbacks. This is a drawback.
No, instead our characters, wizards that are just as capable of learning something new as the next generation of wizards, have to sit around and wait for them to come along and be all like;
"A new spell I never heard of, how strange, I must have simply missed it during the last few decades where I have literally been at the peak of arcane community on this island, clearly i'm an absolute bloody moron or something....."
What you're describing is likely somehing that goes on in Academia all the time. Funnily enough new academics learn and discover and research things old academics do not. LIkewise, a child can be better on a computer than their parent, dispite the parent being senior.
This too shall pass.

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Re: New spell availability.

Post by Orian_666 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:38 pm

I don't disagree that it's good RP for new characters to be a part of it all, i'm not denying that.
And I don't believe anyone said that the older mages should have "known all along", in fact I and others explicitly stated that the RP avenues taken to learn these new spells are entirely based on learning them brand new, new discoveries and the like. Which I feel is just as legitimate RP as a new wizard coming along and learning and sharing them.

You've decided that because it's fun for one "side" that you're going to completely cut off the potential RP (which so far for us involved has been great, a lot of fun, and not at all cheesy) for the other "side", when it should be open to both!!

Your reasoning makes very little sense when you consider that the decision itself stifles and hugely limits potential RP for established characters, this is new for us too and we should be allowed to RP it together instead of having to 100% wait on and rely on newer characters. Why can't my wizard and all his wizard buddies RP these new discoveries, be excited about it all, and work together to learn with each other?
What you're doing is restricting our RP and simply gating the content for the sake of new wizards that become a part of the community and RP within it regardless of whether they're bringing new shiney spells or not.... so i say it again, it is a very poor judgement call on the matter...

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Re: New spell availability.

Post by Orian_666 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:40 pm

DM GrumpyCat wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:27 pm
No, instead our characters, wizards that are just as capable of learning something new as the next generation of wizards, have to sit around and wait for them to come along and be all like;
"A new spell I never heard of, how strange, I must have simply missed it during the last few decades where I have literally been at the peak of arcane community on this island, clearly i'm an absolute bloody moron or something....."
What you're describing is likely somehing that goes on in Academia all the time. Funnily enough new academics learn and discover and research things old academics do not. LIkewise, a child can be better on a computer than their parent, dispite the parent being senior.
And what you're doing is restricting it to that outcome instead of allowing it to happen naturally. Whether the source is a new academic or an old one shouldn't matter, both should be allowed the freedom to continue to learn and grow, from each other or not....

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Re: New spell availability.

Post by The GrumpyCat » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:42 pm

Why can't you rp the discoveries with new characters?
They don't smell, you know.
Let them have their time in the sun.
This too shall pass.

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Re: New spell availability.

Post by Orian_666 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:44 pm

Why can't we have the freedom and agency to do it with or without them, or both?
I'm more than happy to RP it with new wizards, already i've met a few still levelling in game and have learned some from them, and them some from me. I'd also like the ability to learn it with my older buddies too on top of that without the absolute reliance on the new blood.
Once more for the people in the back, poor judgement call...

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Re: New spell availability.

Post by Queen Titania » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:56 pm

Orian_666 wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:44 pm
Why can't we have the freedom and agency to do it with or without them, or both?
I'm more than happy to RP it with new wizards, already i've met a few still levelling in game and have learned some from them, and them some from me. I'd also like the ability to learn it with my older buddies too on top of that without the absolute reliance on the new blood.
Once more for the people in the back, poor judgement call...
Bluntly? Because we said no. Your methods will remain:
Getting the scroll from another who has learned it, likely a younger magi.
Waiting until they get into shops.
Any DM Quest Reward.

Be patient, and one of the above will happen.

Your last line is very impolite, you're welcome to have your own opinion and state so once, but there is no need to be rude either.
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Re: New spell availability.

Post by Orian_666 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:00 pm

I'm sorry if my last line was rude, I was mostly just trying to be funny to help somewhat alleviate my frustration over this..

But so be it, if the reason is simply because you said so then so be it. Damned be logic, sense, and fun.

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Re: New spell availability.

Post by DM Atropos » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:04 pm

People?

You're playing wizards. Make friends with an up and coming wizard who *does* learn it, and boom. Into the book it goes.
This is a ROLEPLAYING MULTIPLAYER server. Go forth and roleplay multiplayerally. You are not, and should not be, the Great Knower and Doer of all, all on your own, regardless of your character's focus or the amount of time they've lingered.

The amount of sheer entitlement here is seriously offputting, and really, *really* needs to be addressed. It's becoming a habit on these forums that I, for one, am very tired of, speaking only for myself and that we, the team, are very tired of, speaking as the Head DM.

If our rulings, and those of the admin team, are not to your pleasure, I always have a list of servers who would love to have players which might be more to your liking.
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