Pirates in Cordor

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GwaiLo
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Pirates in Cordor

Post by GwaiLo » Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:57 am

Are PCs from Sencliff allowed into Cordor? I mean would the NPC guards stop them at the gate and give them the boot?

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Re: Pirates in Cordor

Post by Royal Blood » Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:51 am

That would seem likely to me I think. Though save for like monster races I guess these things are usually down to player enforcement. I'm like slightly against that because we're supposed to believe that the NPCs are part of the environment and not all at the same time.

Context is important too I suppose though ultimately unless a mechanical script is made then It'd be down to PC enforcement.
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Re: Pirates in Cordor

Post by Nevrus » Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:19 am

Pirates actually have a really direct path into Cordor. If they're disguised or don't draw attention they can usually slip through the crowds, though the more notorious ones might think twice about showing their faces.
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Re: Pirates in Cordor

Post by Dreams » Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:20 am

You could always have a mixture of PC enforcement and mechanical scripting. For example, guardsmen with enough spot/lore might call out 'Watch out for that guy, he's sporting pirate tattoos!'

Maybe NPCs should react differently to pirates if they have enough spot/lore.

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Re: Pirates in Cordor

Post by GwaiLo » Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:38 am

Thanks dudes, these answers are very helpful.

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Re: Pirates in Cordor

Post by DM Senke » Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:45 am

You should expect NPCs to behave in a manner that is befitting their role, and as if they were a PC. This means if you are a well-established pirate standing in the middle of Cordor, do not be surprised if the King's chosen Cordor Elite Guards take notice and are quick to respond to your presence.

Pirates are certainly allowed anywhere. That said, playing a pirate comes with it some issues in certain settlements. Think carefully about your choices, and be prepared to potentially have encounters that don't go as you planned. Disguise/stealth can help a lot in places where their infamy may not be well received.

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Re: Pirates in Cordor

Post by The Rambling Midget » Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:08 am

There are seedier parts of Cordor that don't have as much of a guard presence, where I could see a pirate skulking around, but you'd have to be pretty stupid to hang out right in front of the barracks with your tattoos showing. I would advise using less guarded entrances than the two main gates (of which there are many) and making at least some effort to mask your appearance, even if you aren't using disguise. A RP nod to your awareness that you're not welcome goes a long way.
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Re: Pirates in Cordor

Post by Diilicious » Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:19 am

I always see pirates just stood reading the main noticeboard in cordor like nothings up.. lol
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Re: Pirates in Cordor

Post by Apothys » Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:11 am

I can agree with NPCs controlled by DMs approaching pirate players in settlements, however i think it should be Rp'd though, something like a "leave or die" statement would be against the spirit of the server right? Make it into something enjoyable, perhaps bring others players into the encounter and watch the event unfold.

Ive seen Titania do some great RP moments as guards help address villainous player activity. To do anything else would just be bullying in my opinion.

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Re: Pirates in Cordor

Post by Kreindis » Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:23 am

There should probably be mechanical scripts to prevent this.
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Re: Pirates in Cordor

Post by Apothys » Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:31 am

There is mechanical scripts for this, its called being an Exile.

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Re: Pirates in Cordor

Post by Kreindis » Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:33 am

I guess that exile limit better be multiplied by about ten times then.
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Re: Pirates in Cordor

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:41 am

Sometimes DMs will possess NPCs to react to someones presence, or their actions.

IF your pc sneezes a someone may go 'bless you.'

If your pc is prothletizing about the benefits of the church of Bane, a npcs may agree, or dissagree.

If your PC is talking about a grand adventure killing a red dragon, npcs may applaud their actions.

If your Pale Master PC wanders around with his bone arm out, flexing his necrotic fingers then a passing NPC may react with fear, or disgust, or hostility or even (in the right place) Interest.

If a pirate, well known for chaos, murder and torture enters a city like it's nothing, than an NPC may well react disfavourably to that.

We can't do this all the time of course, but we can and will do it somtimes, and the mood and opportunity takes us. We'll try not to stomp on player plots too often, but we will intervene as we see fit sometimes, either to add more spice, more realism to the world, or so on.

Saying 'Pirates are NEVER aloud in Cordor' stymies the fun of plenty of pirates and stops a lot of interesting rp.

But at the same time stating that a known and hated pirate, a murderer of countless people, can mosey on in with absolutly no npc reaction what so ever any time ever is also a little disingenous to the tone of the game and the world.

If you act in a certain way, you should accept that, sometimes, NPCs as well as PCs will react in accordance to that. Not all the time. But sometimes. Don't want that reaction at all? Then don't act in that way. Or act in that way, and be willing to suck up the reactions as part of the narrative.
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Re: Pirates in Cordor

Post by Apothys » Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:31 pm

@DM Grumpycat

Yeah that sounds reasonable. So does this mean the pirates expect the same protection from the DMs on there island? I imagine its only fair to have the Pirate guards or NPCs that roam the halls and surface to step in and do the same to the non ink'd that come stalking the Isle looking for blood or bounties, no?

Also i think the problem pirate players are having with DMs stepping in to shoo or threaten pirates out of Cordor with NPCs, is that it is a known fact that DMs will usually do so with a obscenely overpowered NPC. Effectively forcing a no win scenario for the player and ruining the immersion. Yes the DM is adding immersion by making the NPC react but also removing it by the threat of it being a DM and knowing that if we dont obey, there player is heading to Fugue.

You see Pirates get chased out of Cordor all the time by the player run guards and other law abiding citizens, they even have Exile and Pariah status that can be brought down on them, so adding a DM hammer to this as well seems really demoralising for them.

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Re: Pirates in Cordor

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:49 pm

Yeah that sounds reasonable. So does this mean the pirates expect the same protection from the DMs on there island?
Maybe sure! Probably not so much 'non inked' but if Bob the Well Known Pirate Hunter comes a wandering around, unstealehd and undisguised, then I don't see why a DM wouldn't feel like intervening occasionally. Dependent on the situaiton. IF they're around.

But don't take this as OMG PIRATES CAN NEVER ENTER CORDOR or OMG NONE PIRATES CAN NEVER ENTER SENCLIFF!! but more like npcs are living, breathing characters and, in accordence with your characters actions/reputations/race/class/whatever.
Also i think the problem pirate players are having with DMs stepping in to shoo or threaten pirates out of Cordor with NPCs, is that it is a known fact that DMs will usually do so with a obscenely overpowered NPC. Effectively forcing a no win scenario for the player and ruining the immersion.
Sometimes that'll be the case, sometimes it won't. But this is where you use your common sense. If youre a well known murderer/torturer/monster then I'd ask you why you're just ambling into a settlment like nothing is wrong? Forgive me, but Bob The Mass Murdering Pirate ambling into Cordor like all is well in the world isn't particularly immersive for the other side is it?

If you're genuinly concerned you're going to get curb stomped by a DM for breaking some invisable rule, drop us a quick message and ask! ASk if this is response to some rule breaking, or if this is just a sitaution you can roll with as you will.

Further more, there are other ic options behong 'fight' and 'run away'

You can:
*Try to bribe the guard
*Beg for your life
*Claim your'e not a pirate and this is all a case of mistkaen identity
*Threaten to murder the guards family
*Try to take a hostage
*Threaten retribution against Cordor
*Claim that you're actually a double agent, working for Cordor to give info to them about the Pirates!
*Run to a temple and claim sanctuary
*Agree to come in peacefully and then escape jail later!

Just a few ideas that came to me right away when faced with such a situaiton.
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Re: Pirates in Cordor

Post by Apothys » Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:18 pm

Oh cool, they are good suggestions :)

I have another for you, one that we are discussing amongst the Sencliff community at the moment. There could be a few named guards, ones that are more powerful than the others, ones who can stand up against pirates of great infamy and power. They could be called in and hold the rookie guards back in some grand gesture as they go in to deal with threat, effectively giving the "leave or die statement" and it having real meaning. This end result would be the same, but the player characters power and reputation would be acknowledged - thats a happy pirate.

Just a thought, but the idea rang true with a number of the pirates on the Cliff.

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Re: Pirates in Cordor

Post by Brahtius » Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:35 pm

Ebonstar wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:14 pm
it wouldnt be a problem if you didnt run into a pirate every day ten times a day in cordor.

dont pirates have other places they can smuggle into besides cordor
You probably pass a hundred Banite, Cyricists, Necromancers and all the other evils of the module too. They just don't have a huge red flag in their description.

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Re: Pirates in Cordor

Post by DM Senke » Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:52 pm

Apothys wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:18 pm
Oh cool, they are good suggestions :)

I have another for you, one that we are discussing amongst the Sencliff community at the moment. There could be a few named guards, ones that are more powerful than the others, ones who can stand up against pirates of great infamy and power. They could be called in and hold the rookie guards back in some grand gesture as they go in to deal with threat, effectively giving the "leave or die statement" and it having real meaning. This end result would be the same, but the player characters power and reputation would be acknowledged - thats a happy pirate.

Just a thought, but the idea rang true with a number of the pirates on the Cliff.
Location matters!

If you are a well-known pirate causing issue in one of Cordor's (or any settlement's) main thoroughfare, you can expect NPC presence to notice you more easily. If you're raising Cain near Cordor's board, well, that's a pirate who hasn't considered how many of King Edward's chosen elites are quite literally steps away. Even then, your reaction dictates a lot. Players absolutely get a vote on how an interaction unfolds (if you double-down on 'I'm a powerful pirate, fear me' to a group of elite guards, you're asking for trouble though).

Recognizing a pirate's infamy is a route we have already taken when NPCs become involved. Their presence and reaction is necessarily a result of the stimulus before them (in this case, a well-known pirate). Not all locations will yield the same result. A back alley in Cordor may have one guard, if any.

We reserve the right to enforce realism in the setting, and to protect that setting accordingly. There isn't a single member of the team who wishes to unilaterally enforce their personal agenda against pirates, paladins, Drow, etc. That said, realism is sometimes a calculus of not causing trouble near 3 elite guards and a Sergeant.

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Re: Pirates in Cordor

Post by GwaiLo » Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:48 pm

Excellent responses. Seems like it's about a PCs reputation and not the tattoos if I'm reading correctly. I can make a new pirate and hang out in Cordor and the NPC guards wouldn't object.

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Re: Pirates in Cordor

Post by DM Atropos » Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:09 pm

GwaiLo wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:48 pm
Excellent responses. Seems like it's about a PCs reputation and not the tattoos if I'm reading correctly. I can make a new pirate and hang out in Cordor and the NPC guards wouldn't object.
They may well object if we decide they should. There is no time ever that you, as a player, should feel you know for sure what NPCs would do, any more than we feel you should know what someone else's PC can do.

Maybe that guard has a reason to hate your char, and/or all pirates. You don't know.
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Re: Pirates in Cordor

Post by Subutai » Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:29 pm

As a side notes, "new" pirates are pretty free to do most anything, shy of hanging out with people with very high spot/lore, since they can slip by pretty easily. On the other hand, old, establish pirates often have a hard time because they're spotted straight away and pursued.

I think having too many mechanical scripts would also be a bit contrary to the whole "elected government" stuff Arelith has going on. A particularly elected government might be more or less opposed to pirates. One government might crack down on pirates and string them up every time they catch them. Another might be quite lenient. By leaving the NPCs (mostly) out of it, it allows players to follow the current view on pirates. If the PC guards are told to be lenient, but the NPC guards are constantly calling out pirates and trying to get them arrested or killed, it create an unpleasant RP experience.

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Re: Pirates in Cordor

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:37 pm

Apothys wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:18 pm
Oh cool, they are good suggestions :)

I have another for you, one that we are discussing amongst the Sencliff community at the moment. There could be a few named guards, ones that are more powerful than the others, ones who can stand up against pirates of great infamy and power. They could be called in and hold the rookie guards back in some grand gesture as they go in to deal with threat, effectively giving the "leave or die statement" and it having real meaning. This end result would be the same, but the player characters power and reputation would be acknowledged - thats a happy pirate.

Just a thought, but the idea rang true with a number of the pirates on the Cliff.
That is an interesting idea - but tbh that any guard is saying 'get out' to you is kinda indicative that they recognise you as a threat and thus their reaction has meaning.

If by the above what you mean is 'so I know whether to attack them or not' then is that really fair? Should then, before any pvp breaks out, we demand that all parties reveal their exact level/build so that everyone knows the chances of winning?

If you get approached by a guard npc, then you can make that choice yourself. You might want to ask, 'Is this a DM telling me I shouldn't be here for definate or is this a DM just adding spice?' and as I said - you can certainly quickly check with us via message for that. Most of the time, unless your a monster race, the answer will be 'no, you're fine to be here rules wise, but the npcs are just reacting to your presence, it's up to you how you wann roll with that.' But again you should ask yourself - is it really wise for your character to take on an entire -city- of people?

That being said, there is an issue running along side of this that we as DMs need to keep in mind, and that I think players should to.

On The One Hand we do want to try and keep Arelith a (mostly) player lead experience. I for one don't want players having to contact us about every little thing, for fear of what the npcs will do, won't do, will support, ect. A lot of what happens -SHOULD- be in the hands of the pcs.

On The Other Hand creativity does, in part, flourish within boundries. The setting integrity has to be respected and good rp, good story comes not just from 'the pc does whatever they want.' but 'the pc does what they want, within some set limits that add verisimiltude, and makes a good story.'

If we make it so that the npc guards will react no matter what and act as utter and complete proxies for the pc government no matter what, and are all powerful Gods that can destroy the Strongest of Character, - we end up with a player base entirely reliant on our presence, with a feeling of high frustration from one side, and most of all with a huge difficulty in making any external conflict within a settlment. Even exiles are limited to encourage careful use of them, to deal with the worst conflict makers, but also enable others to be savvy and do their thing.

If we swing too far the other way, then we lack boundries to make a world interesting. PCs can utterly ignore the will of NPCs, and NPCs are entirely unable to enforce their will. There's nothing laying 'structure' to the setting. Cordor becomes a warground full, half full of raiding pirates/underdarkes, half full of cuddlebolds, warlocks and snuggle-drow kissing each others faces off in braud daylight, whilst shapeshifted dragons roam about merrily.

In one version no pirate can ever enter Cordor, in another a single pirate can run about slaying NPCs willy nilly in the full knowledge nothing can challenge them.
Or to use a more common example - in one version Drow are prevented from entering any settlment due to Kill Script. In another Drow enter in braud day light and chill our in Arastotalous street openly.

So what I think we as DMs like to see, is that whilse we do want to give players freedom to persue your own story lines, if you can work to keep in mind the basic structure of the world, then that helps immersion all around.

We're not saying 'Your well known pirate murder can never enter Cordor' we're saying 'If your well known Pirate- murderer enters Cordor, maybe it's best to do so covertly? Acting as they should - in the presumption that yes, maybe the NPC guards CAN kill you, at least due to their numbers, if not due to their skills.'

It's not about squashing player moral, it's about asking the players, politely, to have some respect for the setting.
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Re: Pirates in Cordor

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:07 pm

I actually think there's something deeply problematic about DMs possessing NPCs to enforce hostility towards pirates. The amount of DM input in this thread is astonishing, really.

I've seen DM heavyhandedness first hand on this issue. It was super jarring to see a DM possess an NPC to respond to a pirate, and I thought it was actually in really poor taste. I know if I was on the other side, I'd be super intimidated that suddenly I'm not just interacting with PCs, I have to interact with NPCs too.

To me, it fundamentally doesn't make any sense. Never before have I seen such an approach been taken to non-monster PCs before. Surely Banites and necromancers and Cyricists can become as institutionalized as Sencliffe, but we haven't seen such an extent to somehow enforce some server-level mantra about how pirates should behave.

Maybe my tone is being a bit extreme, but I didn't really believe the discourse around pirates until like 4 DMs jumped into this thread to answer a question.

I think there's a systemic flaw here. Call me hyperbolic, but yeah.
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Re: Pirates in Cordor

Post by GwaiLo » Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:15 pm

Well thought out Grumpy Cat. I would like to see DMs playing as the NPCs more often, it really helps me with immersion and reminds me to respect the NPC presence.

I think my original question was more about what the cities "official" stance is on people from Sencliff, so I can have it in mind when NPCs are near. Like when I play my outcast or monster I know that they are not welcome in Cordor and avoid NPC guards. The new pariah system clears this up for my outcast, but does not include pirates. I didnt understand the context of being a person from Sencliff while visiting Cordor. I'm still a bit confused. Would a person with Tattoos who is very respectful and friendly be welcome to hang out and make friends in Cordor? Obviously PCs are free to treat you as they like.

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Re: Pirates in Cordor

Post by Nevrus » Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:00 pm

A person with newbie tattoos who hasn't caused a lot of problems has gold and if they aren't making a scene most people will look the other way, though be suspicious.

People with high-level tattoos have directly attacked Cordorian vessels and should probably be driven out.

You don't get to be a Dread Pirate without cracking a few Cordor merchant vessels.
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