Evil CoT

[Twohand]

For my first Major Award I submitted a concept for a BG CoT, but I ended up settling for a different reward in the end, before receiving a response, however, my desire to play an evil CoT still exists. And, at some point, at least according to the Wiki, it was hinted that evil CoTs were allowed if given DM permission, which is not the case anymore. Why was it changed? Are there, besides the vanilla requirements, balance issues that restrict CoTs to good/neutral alignments only, unlike in NWN 2, where it is open to all alignments?

[CosmicOrderV]

I can't speak for the Dev's, but here's hoping it's because they're waiting for HAKs to drop, in which many of the divine classes are completely re-worked. This is one great example of how concepts don't match mechanics.

[The GrumpyCat]

I can't speak with 100% confidence, but I'm 99% sure that we've not allowed evil CoT's before. So I don't think the wiki is right there?

[Mythic]

Mechanically CoT's cannot be evil, so I think thats a hard change? like if Blackguard was opened up to Neutral, it'd have to be done via a workaround?

[Sea Shanties]

There might be confusion because neutral CoT PCs worshipping evil deities was a semi-allowed grey area a long time ago. It's not allowed now though.

[Twohand]

Mechanically CoT's cannot be evil, so I think thats a hard change? like if Blackguard was opened up to Neutral, it'd have to be done via a workaround?

Bards can be lawful in Arelith, I assume it'd be a similar tweak.

[The Rambling Midget]

Playing a CoT of an evil deity is currently not allowed.

You can do non-good, but not evil. If the Wiki ever said otherwise, it's been corrected.

[Twohand]

Playing a CoT of an evil deity is currently not allowed.

You can do non-good, but not evil. If the Wiki ever said otherwise, it's been corrected.

Yeah, according to the page's last edit by DM TItania, it was a DM decision. Older versions of the page mention "Playing a CoT of an evil deity may require DM permission", which seems to be based on a quote by DM Watchtower from a decade ago, lol. In any case, crossing my fingers here that one day evil Divine Champions will be a thing.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Mechanically CoT's cannot be evil, so I think thats a hard change? like if Blackguard was opened up to Neutral, it'd have to be done via a workaround?

Mechanically, Champion of Torm is a very narrow subset (one faith) of the Divine Champion prestige class. I think it'd be pretty sweet if Champion of Torm became Divine Champion, similar to PDK becoming a "Knight," but without the paths. Have them follow the 1-step alignment rule clerics follow, and the rest kind of falls into place.

Interestingly enough, Divine Champions don't normally smite an alignment- instead, they can specifically smite anyone with a different Patron Deity than themselves - I don't know how much work that is, though.

Divine Champion

(Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting variant, p. 42)

Divine champions are mighty warriors who dedicate themselves to their deity's cause, defending holy ground, destroying enemies of the church, and slaying mythical beasts and clerics of opposing faiths.
Requirements

Base Attack Bonus: +7

Skills: Knowledge (religion) 3 ranks

Feats: Weapon Focus in the deity's favored weapon.

Patron: A divine champion must have a patron deity, and it must be the deity of which she is a champion.

Hit die

d10
Skill points

2 + Int
Class Features

All the following are class features of the divine champion prestige class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A divine champion is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields.

Lay on Hands (Sp): As a defender of the faith, a divine champion may lay on hands to heal herself or another creature following the same patron deity as himself. The ability works like a paladin's ability to lay on hands, except the divine champion may heal 1 point of damage per divine champion level times her Charisma bonus. If the divine champion is a paladin, she can combine this healing with her paladin class's lay on hands ability.

Fighter Feat: At 2nd level and again at 4th level, a divine champion may choose any one feat (except Weapon Specialization) from the fighter class bonus feat list on page 27 of the 'Player's Handbook or any feat with the [Fighter] designator in this chapter.

Sacred Defense: Add this value (+1 at 2nd level, +2 at 4th level) to the divine champion's saving throws against divine spells, as well as the spell-like and supernatural abilities of outsiders.

Smite Infidel (Su): Once per day, a divine champion may attempt to smite a creature with a different patron deity (or no patron deity at all) with one normal melee attack. She adds her Charisma bonus to the attack and roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per divine champion level. If the divine champion accidentally smites someone of the same patron, the smite has no effect but is still used up for that day. If the divine champion is also a paladin, she may use smite evil and this ability separately or combine them into a single strike if the target is evil and of a different faith.

Divine Wrath (Su): The divine champion channels a portion of her patron's power into wrath, giving her a +3 bonus on attack rolls, damage, and saving throws for a number of rounds equal to her Charisma bonus. During this time, the divine champion also has damage reduction of 5/-. This ability can be used once per day and is invoked as a free action.
Advancement

Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +1 +2 +2 +0 Lay on hands
2nd +2 +3 +3 +0 Fighter feat, sacred defense +1
3rd +3 +3 +3 +1 Smite infidel
4th +4 +4 +4 +1 Fighter feat, sacred defense +2
5th +5 +5 +4 +1 Divine wrath

I would love to see actual religious warfare crop up around divine champions of opposing faiths.

[Ebonstar]

CoT is to good and neutral what BG is to evil simply because Champion of Torm or Tyr or Hoar or Silvanus or Arvoreen and Blackguard of Bane or Bhaal or Talona or Mask Etc

[CosmicOrderV]

If CoT is to good and neutral what BG is to evil, then where does paladin fit into the mix? :^)
For that matter, how come the powers of good and neutral manifest the same way? Seems strange evil would be the odd-one-out.

[The Greater Good]

Bioware laziness. The class CoT is based on, Divine Champion, is any alignment, and rather than an alignment based smite, gets a smite against anyone with a different deity.

[CosmicOrderV]

That's the gospel truth right there, and why I feel confidant this class will see some changes once we get HAKs on the norm for Arelith.

[Durvayas]

Interestingly enough, Divine Champions don't normally smite an alignment- instead, they can specifically smite anyone with a different Patron Deity than themselves - I don't know how much work that is, though.

Should be easy. And no, I don't code, I'm well aware this is wrong, but the logic works.

Setflag mydeity = selected deity.

Function: smite.
If targets_religion == mydeity
Then smite = no
else: smite = yes

[Jagel]

Semi related: a DM correcting the wiki does not equal that the edit is due to a DM ruling.

DMs usually do not make server policy. They enforce it.

[The GrumpyCat]

Semi related: a DM correcting the wiki does not equal that the edit is due to a DM ruling.

DMs usually do not make server policy. They enforce it.

Very true. Sometimes we clarify rulings, or deal with edge cases, but for the most part we just enforce what's put before us.

Again I don't recall off hand any evil CoT's. The idea that a CoT could worship an evil deity does, however, ring some bells, but I can't remember in detail any rulings about it. I can try and check it out with the admin/team if people want?

[The Rambling Midget]

On Arelith, this class can represent Champion of any Deity that allows non-evil worshippers.

"Champions of Torm can roleplay something more akin to a divine champion, pending DM approval of your character's specific god and how he or she intends to roleplay their connection to that deity." DM Watchtower

Note that a DM must approve your request and a Champion of evil deity might be very hard (if not impossible) to justify.

This is the "ruling" in question. It makes no explicit mention of evil CoTs being allowed. That was a clarification added by the original author of the wiki page, which was then paraphrased until the note was finally altered by Titania.

As with anything, you can still ask for it with a Major Award

[Seven Sons of Sin]

So to be a lawful evil CoT of Shar you need DM approval before taking the first level of CoT?

I like the idea of evil Champions more than playing Blackguards. There can be a strong dissonance between being the faithful of a malevolent, but not being some demon/devil hugbear.

[Kalopsia]

So to be a lawful evil CoT of Shar you need DM approval before taking the first level of CoT?

As far as I know, this wouldn't work.

According to the quoted, outdated section of the wiki:
- An evil CoT would require a major award (the usual NWN alignment restrictions apply)
- A neutral CoT worshipping an evil deity is acceptable

However, a revision by DM Titania has changed this wiki article to:
- An evil CoT would require a major award (the usual NWN alignment restrictions apply)
- A neutral CoT must worship a neutral or good deity


I'd actually be interested in the reasons for this change.
Was it a clarification to a policy that already applied back then and was simply misunderstood by some people? Or was it an intentional limitation to roleplay of the CoT class because there were too many people playing Divine Champions of evil deities?

[Ebonstar]

To qualify as a champion of Torm, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria:

Alignment: any non-evil

Base attack bonus: +7

Feats: weapon focus in a melee weapon

more like too many people not playing their alignment properly and choosing to rp an evil cot

[Kalopsia]

To qualify as a champion of Torm, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria:

Alignment: any non-evil

Base attack bonus: +7

Feats: weapon focus in a melee weapon

more like too many people not playing their alignment properly and choosing to rp an evil cot

There’s a difference between worshipping an evil deity and being evil - but I get what you mean: Would an evil deity accept a neutral worshipper as a Champion and reward them with divine powers? Likely not.

[Sea Shanties]

Neutral deities allow paladins so it's not that crazy a notion.

Most evil deities are all about using whatever tool is available so granting power to someone who's not wholly evil seems something they would do. Perhaps with confidence the power will eventually corrupt the user. A neutral divine champion of an evil deity could be a very interesting character since they could be conflicted or have a conscience about the deity they serve.

[Ebonstar]

until we go four corner paladins, if we ever do, I dont think this would happen

[CosmicOrderV]

That's another change that's hopefully on the horizon

[Opustus]

Neutral deities allow paladins so it's not that crazy a notion.

Most evil deities are all about using whatever tool is available so granting power to someone who's not wholly evil seems something they would do. Perhaps with confidence the power will eventually corrupt the user. A neutral divine champion of an evil deity could be a very interesting character since they could be conflicted or have a conscience about the deity they serve.

I'd also love to play the concept of the unwilling advocate bound by fear or falsehood. E.g. a divine champion of Beshaba who champions her lest the sky fall on her head; champion of Umberlee lest the sea swallow innocent sailors etc. etc.