Ashwood Repeating Crossbow

[Sea Shanties]

What does it do exactly?

According to the wiki it's:

Attack Bonus: +4
Attack Penalty: -3 (?)
Enhancement Bonus: Dexterity +2
Mighty +5

Which seems like.. +1 attack, +2 dex, mighty +5? Is this correct, are there additional features?

[yellowcateyes]

When the wielder of the repeater crossbow has both the Rapid Reload and Rapid Shot feats, they gain an additional attack per round.

[Shadowy Reality]

When the wielder of the repeater crossbow has both the Rapid Reload and Rapid Shot feats, they gain an additional attack per round.

Does this apply to all crossbows or just that particular one?

[yellowcateyes]

Just the repeater crossbow.

[Tahira Waynolt]

are there plans for a light version of this?

[yellowcateyes]

Possibly. This item is a test case and may see modification before a light crossbow version is added.

[Durvayas]

I think its going to need more AB to be even remotely useful.

You're going to need a STR of at least 20 to actually use that mighty. so this is clearly designed with STR builds in mind.
If your STR is 20 or more, your dex is not going to be very good, so your accuracy is shot(pun intended). An extra attack per round doesn't mean much when you're only hitting on a 20 and are reliant on true strike potions to get good hits.

Compare with the ashwood heavy crossbow:

Attack Bonus: +4
Enhancement Bonus: Dexterity +2
Mighty +6
Massive Criticals 2d10
Runic

Its direct competitor, laid out above, is better in basically every way (except for the pain that goes into crafting the adaptive gears for the heavy. Repeater is marginally better in that regard). The heavy is better for attack, for damage, better for crits, its runic , and it doesn't require blowing an extra feat in your build to function. This is the ideal heavy crossbow for STR characters, even drow (if they aren't willing to lose 3AC).

Even the weapon you consume as an ingredient to make this, the grand masterly heavy crossbow, is objectively better, with more AB, more damage, and bigger crits..

Attack Bonus: +3
Enhancement Bonus: Dexterity +2
Mighty +6
Massive Criticals 2d8

The repeater crossbow, with its +1AB, frankly isn't up to snuff as a heavy crossbow without higher AB. If you are going to rely on crits to hit, you don't blow an extra feat (as a drow ) or two feats(anyone else) to use this. You'll blow one feat(rapid shot) and do it with an ashwood longbow. Your APR will be higher, and your accuracy will be higher.

If you're truly going to rely on a ranged weapon for damage as a STR character, you will use a gonne. You'll do more damage per round than with this unless you're using the repeater to shoot at fixtures, poorly geared lowbies(shame on you), or no-AC barbarians (though the gonne will be better for going through their DR).

As someone playing a strength build drow, I wouldn't use this weapon if given it for free. Sorry. The theme is cool, but its not nearly getting enough juice to justify spending an extra feat on. Its really expensive, time consuming to make, and the ammunition will be a pain to get.

If the rapid shot feat requirement was removed, then sure, an extra attack per round might be a pretty okay trade for being able to only hit the broad side of a barn; a lower chance to hit for an extra round is a fair trade in some situations(This crossbow, is the embodiement of the power attack feat at range). Just like the wardbreaker drastically increases your chances of getting hit in return for being a +5 AB crossbow, a big negative can be justified by a big positive.

With low AB and feat requirements, you have two big negatives for one positive. Its a non-zero-sum game, and thus a nonstarter.

[R0GUE]

Ranged weapons (except thrown) aren't generally for STR characters anyway are they? Is the repeater better for a Dex build that maybe amplifies their STR with magic items and bulls STR to get some use out of the mighty property?

[Durvayas]

Ranged weapons (except thrown) aren't generally for STR characters anyway are they? Is the repeater better for a Dex build that maybe amplifies their STR with magic items and bulls STR to get some use out of the mighty property?

Kind of my point. There is no good Dex build that amplifies their strength with str items. Items by and large(except for if people have used runic properties to add a third) have two abilities. Dexers put Dex and something else. They'd have to sacrifice that something else(almost always CON) in order to get the mileage out of the mighty property.
IE: They'd need a full set + bulls strength to get the 10 STR needed to get full use of the +5 mighty on the bow. They'd be dropping their HP and Fort save substancially to do so.

Edit: Keep in mind also, dex builds already are fairly fragile.

[R0GUE]

Yeh I guess I'm saying that even if you dont get the full use out of the mighty property, but you are using some of it, is it better than the Ashwood?

[Durvayas]

The ashwood heavy crossbow has +3 AB on this thing, is runic, and has 2d10 massive crits.

If you are a dex build, I suppose you'd have to make the choice on if you want higher crit probability(since you have to roll to confirm) and damage, or an extra attack, with all attacks being lowered in accuracy by 3AB(a huge deal).

If you have, say, 24AB with the heavy and 21AB with the repeater, and your opponent has 41AC, your odds of scoring a hit go from 20% on your first shot to 5%(crits only, and good luck rolling a 20 to confirm).
At low enemy AC, the repeater is okay, possibly better, depending on ammo.
As AC increases, it gets worse until it can only hit on a 20.
It stays worse until the heavy also can only hit on a 20, at which point it has a 5% chance of hitting an extra time in a round. At this point, the choice is between fewer chances to hit, but higher crit damage(because of the heavy's massive crits) or that extra chance to score a hit.

Ideally, I'd just use a gonne.

But if forced to choose, it really comes down to ammo, but tbh, in that situation(assuming I'm a dexer and a gonne is not an option), I'd just use the ashwood longbow, and save myself needing the rapid reload feat.

Exception being if I'm playing a dex drow, in which case spinnerette or wardbreaker all the way.

[Sea Shanties]

There are dex builds that can have decent strength with little effort.. Dwarf based for example who can start with 13 strength easily, it's not tough to bump that to 20 with buffs and one or two pieces of gear.

Still does seem like a little bit of a gimmick or secondary weapon. I guess if had a character who used it I would also have a gonne AND an ashwood heavy crossbow in my inventory which is... excessive but seems necessary to cover all bases.

Maybe if the -3 was removed but you had the option to use the rapid shot feat with it? Then you could forego the penalty for less shots and more accuracy if you're against a high AC enemy, like any other sling or bow user.

I do like the idea and maybe it's still a work in progress. I assume there are a lot of factors I'm not thinking of like various ranger-archer boons and this being a rogue proficiency weapon that could make it overpowered easily.

[Iceborn]

That sounds like a typo, but I can't check right now.
I'd assume it's actually a +3 weapon; it would be... absurd to give it more attacks AND even lower its AB.

[Ork]

I'm assuming the +4 AB is specifically to pierce DR. This is the perfect weapon for paladin or cleric archers that can easily boost AB with spells.

[R0GUE]

I'm assuming the +4 AB is specifically to pierce DR. This is the perfect weapon for paladin or cleric archers that can easily boost AB with spells.

Or bards with bard song?

[ReverentBlade]

Sorry for being a weapons nerd, but why do crossbows (especially repeaters) have a mighty score at all? I know that balance and lore don't always coincide, but the whole -point- of the development of crossbows (and later firearms) was that they didn't require the same physical conditioning and training as the big war bows.

[ReverentBlade]

To elaborate further, the poundage of a crossbow's draw is the poundage you get, every shot, every user. You can't "overdraw" a crossbow to get more damage. The idea of "overdraw" at all is silly to anyone who's used a bow, but you could make a case that "mighty" represents using shorter bowstrings to pre-load some poundage onto the bow for people with really beastly strength scores. Its really bad for the bow, but I guess an enchanted bow doesn't care. I just can't see the same case being made for crossbows with elaborate mechanisms.

[Peppermint]

The AB isn't "bad". Compared to the equivalent longbow, this crossbow has +1 APR/-2 AB.

Are we noticing something here?

Yes, that's the same as using the comparable bow with Rapid Shot. Wait, no. In some cases, better. Because the crossbow doesn't receive a hard AB reduction, the character's resulting AB cap is higher than it would be while using a longbow. (Meaning characters using True Strike potions and clerics with the War Domain will net an effective +2 AB for the duration.)

The mighty bonus is also not useless. With 13 base STR (divine might), Bull's Strength, Aura of Vitality, and even the occasional War Domain, zen archers will cap it with ease. (Note: Optimal zen archers will go Healer, meaning they can't even use the longbow equivalent. Which is okay. This new crossbow is just hands down better.)

Even archers that don't go for Divine Might will hit 18 STR with a Divine Power--just one short of the full mighty bonus.

The only drawback here is the feat requirement, though that's not insurmountable; a ranger dip will grant Rapid Reload, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Reload, and a bonus feat in a three level package.

tl;dr New crossbow outperforms every bow. Nerfs when?

[Zavandar]

What else needs to be discussed?

[Ork]

Sorry for being a weapons nerd, but why do crossbows (especially repeaters) have a mighty score at all?

Probably cause it's fun.

[ReverentBlade]

My fun is immersion and verisimilitude. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Kenji]

tl;dr New crossbow outperforms every bow. Nerfs when?

Here is the relevant data:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 1058454467

Assuming base AB to be 51...

vs 30 AC (99% of PvE content)
Repeater Xbow > Longbow by 2% average damage.

vs 52 AC (WMs w/o Expertise)
Repeater Xbow > Longbow by 1.8% average damage.
Heavy Xbow remain top damage when hasted

vs 62 AC (WMs w/ Imp. Expertise on while chasing you)
Repeater Xbow > Longbow w/ Rapid Shot by 0.5%
Longbow w/o Rapid > Repeater Xbow
Heavy Xbow remain top damage when hasted

Note that Repeater Crossbow requires both the feats to utilize, naturally, Ranger Archer dips can then utilize the said weapon. But other builds don't (Healer Zen Archery build) will be required to take an extra feat where they may or may not be able to spare said feat slot.

We should also take into account that in PvP scenarios, if any longbow/sling users encounter any foes with AC above their AB by 8 when rapid shot is enabled (6 when rapid shot is disabled), then their average damage will even out. Here are the relevant data:
https://i.gyazo.com/584b3c0e4c9266be6de ... b06cce.png

What the above means is if an archer is kiting a high AC opponent, rapid shot should always be turned off. If the archer is standing still and firing away, but opposing AC is 7 or above, the archer will get more damage with rapid shot turned off.

Repeater Xbows don't have the option to turn off said mode and have less unaccounted "lucky burst" of the massive crit compared to longbows. After all, the average damage is just that, average damage.

We should also remember that Arcane Archers exist, that and melee who utilize any ranged weapons still can't use repeater xbow unless they invest feats into it. Xbows are currently a very specialized weapon not meant for the masses.

Conclusion My interpretation of the data and current meta:
The repeater xbow doesn't really power creep upon the current launchers, but it allows the xbow users with both rapid shot and rapid reload feat to be more versatile; All at the cost of nuanced crafting processes, extra space and weight taken away, also having to gear 2 more str compared to longbows.

Edit: And I can't stress enough again, it takes more effort to craft Ashwood Heavy Crossbow compared to an Ashwood Longbow, now the dedicated Xbow user will have to craft another even more complicated craft just to compete or perform slightly better than Longbow users.

Going for both crafts is the equivalent of those who 5% their gear, I'd imagine.

Edit #2: Remember when there used to be separate Archer and Sniper path? And folks would rather take Archer path over Sniper path for free bundles simply because they did not want to bother with crafting ammo, when the extra feats could have meant mounted archery or save feats that can be utilized in PvP. This alone should show that crafting the crossbow itself is a process not to be taken lightly, even if numbers show it to be just that slightly superior.

[Sockss]

You can turn rapid shot off by equipping a different crossbow, which keeps your damage larger.

You also have the added adaptability of the +5 xbow.

Additionally the larger crit range ensures you will threaten casters with 100+ conc checks more than the lbow.

Lbow is only now a good choice for AA's. However the class is severely sub par to rangers currently.

[Peppermint]

It wouldn't surprise me to see healer zen archer builds start dipping ranger now that 1) monk speed no longer goes above 50%, 2) -path can be used to take the archer path late into the character's career.

Please also bear in mind that crossbow options are superior to longbows overall, especially for drow. Outside of Rapid Shot, Wardbreaker and Hand Spinneret outperform the competition by a wide margin.

Furthermore, ease of creation is irrelevant for a one time craft. The comparison to ammunition (which must be crafted repeatedly) is such patent nonsense that I won't even belabor the point, because I'm certain you know it's nonsense.

Finally, in their current incarnation, repeater crossbows are not "specialized weapons"; or at the very least, that term is meaningless. Every character specializes in a single weapon. Characters that had previously used longbows (aside AAs, obviously) will almost always spend the additional feat on crossbows for more damage and the versatility that the weapon affords.

From a pure balance perspective, is this the worst thing in the world? Probably not. It makes ranged weapons stronger, but it's debatable whether that's a good or a bad thing. From an ideological standpoint, however, it seems super odd to me that a simple weapon is now flat out superior to its martial equivalent. Maybe that's just me.

[Zavandar]

tl;dr New crossbow outperforms every bow. Nerfs when?

We should also take into account that in PvP scenarios, if any longbow/sling users encounter any foes with AC above their AB by 8 when rapid shot is enabled (6 when rapid shot is disabled), then their average damage will even out. Here are the relevant data:
https://i.gyazo.com/584b3c0e4c9266be6de ... b06cce.png

What the above means is if an archer is kiting a high AC opponent, rapid shot should always be turned off. If the archer is standing still and firing away, but opposing AC is 7 or above, the archer will get more damage with rapid shot turned off.

So then they can just equip the regular ashwood crossbow.

More versatility, more damage, crits more often (which is better for interrupting spells), and has 2 more AB in true strike/cleric buff scenarios.

And then, we just had the x1.5 Divine Might nerfs to xbow/longbow, making sling comparatively better, too.

Why are simple weapons being brought up to martial? Do we WANT healer paths that can Apache attack helicopter somebody?