Sling Downgrade?

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RedGiant
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Sling Downgrade?

Post by RedGiant » Mon May 20, 2019 3:05 am

Why was massive criticals dropped from sling on an already sub-par weapon when it is yet around on the bow?

I can't believe that use with a shield is enough to merit this substantial nerf?

Throwing axes generally performed better for strong characters, even before this, so the pre-nerf stats just made slings viable, imo.
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Re: Sling Downgrade?

Post by Tarkus the dog » Mon May 20, 2019 4:57 am

It was really good on halfling barbarian monks.

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Re: Sling Downgrade?

Post by yellowcateyes » Mon May 20, 2019 7:17 am

Previously, slings exceeded other ranged weapons in damage output when matched to the innate Halfling AB bonuses from both small stature and the Good Aim feat. This meant that it was unequivocally the best ranged weapon when you considered that it could also be used with a shield, affording the character both additional AC and an extra slot for item property bonuses.

The adjustments were made in light of that. Slings should still be a solid, or the best, option for certain ranged characters.

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Re: Sling Downgrade?

Post by RedGiant » Mon May 20, 2019 6:15 pm

Since we're talking about a possible +2 ab on halfling...and the ab of the sling itself was dropped, I'm not sure why damage was also targeted on a 1d4 x2 weapon.

All hail the reign/rain (of arrows) of the halfling shortbow brigade...cause they're already cranking out Ashwood shortbows.

I don't personally understand the math here, since the 1d6 x 3 alterative has always greatly outperformed the sling, whose only draw was some AC or even purely thematic.

Am I missing some sort of shield wombs combo here that pushes this over the edge?
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Re: Sling Downgrade?

Post by Durvayas » Mon May 20, 2019 6:19 pm

Seems to me like the damage rebalance was intended to make halflings choose between the AC of a shield-sling combo, or the damage of a shortbow, rather than let them have both, as they had before..
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Re: Sling Downgrade?

Post by TimeAdept » Mon May 20, 2019 8:35 pm

RedGiant wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 6:15 pm
Since we're talking about a possible +2 ab on halfling...and the ab of the sling itself was dropped, I'm not sure why damage was also targeted on a 1d4 x2 weapon.

All hail the reign/rain (of arrows) of the halfling shortbow brigade...cause they're already cranking out Ashwood shortbows.

I don't personally understand the math here, since the 1d6 x 3 alterative has always greatly outperformed the sling, whose only draw was some AC or even purely thematic.

Am I missing some sort of shield wombs combo here that pushes this over the edge?
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zen archer dhalfling sling battlecleric or ranger

good aim doesn't count for bows

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Re: Sling Downgrade?

Post by Sea Shanties » Tue May 21, 2019 8:28 pm

I'd suggest the crafting requirements for enhanced elite sling be looked at, as after such a massive nerf it perhaps ought to be easier to make.

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Re: Sling Downgrade?

Post by RedGiant » Thu May 23, 2019 2:56 am

TimeAdept wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 8:35 pm
yes, you are

zen archer dhalfling sling battlecleric or ranger

good aim doesn't count for bows
I'm well aware good aim doesn't count for bows and they already dropped the AB of the sling itself to compensate for this. There is still the small stature issue that YCE identified, but this invokes the standard size modifiers that apply universally to any small creature. Clearly "damage output" is not the full concern, since far higher damage numbers are possible with light Ashwood crossbows and bows.

All of this makes me think AC is part of the equation. In the words of Time Adept, though, X
TimeAdept wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:40 am
...is not a "wombo combo."
Where X, here, is a sling-invested Halfling battle-cleric. The high end AC of a wisdom dump Halfling battle-cleric is not stratospheric; even with the possible +7 AC from a fully vested large shield. They could, at the risk of MAD, feat starvation, and probably being silly frail, push the AC higher with some Divine Shield chicanery. The weapon choice itself prevents improved expertise.

I think what we have done here is inadvertently re-incentivized battle-cleric monk dips, since if I'm going for wisdom dump ranged effect, I might as well pick up the 10-14 AC monk offers which nicely beats the 7 AC shield offers AND use Ashwood insanity for far superior damage. So, we're still missing what awesome properties I can put on a large shield that puts this build over the top. As it was, and is, I can make a far deadlier ranged midget through other methods, all of which are far less culturally Halfling.
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Re: Sling Downgrade?

Post by Sea Shanties » Thu May 23, 2019 3:13 am

It seems like elves and drow have such huge advantages with bows and crossbows (whether AA class or special gear), did halfling sling users really top what they are capable of?

Likewise seeing this and the crossbow discussion speaking mostly in terms of what clerics squeezing every advantage makes my heart sink a little, since I have the feeling it's the people who want to play archetypical hin sling-using rangers and rogues who are going to be hit.

I'm not the one running numbers or watching what people are building to maximize advantages so I could very well be wrong and this is a much needed nerf. It's just a bit dismaying to see the hin archetype made less appealing.

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Re: Sling Downgrade?

Post by garrbear758 » Thu May 23, 2019 5:47 am

It was due to the halfling ranger/pally(or harper paragon) having a very high ac, ab, damage, and saves. I think a better solution would be a nerf to divine might/shield with low blackguard/pally levels, but that would break a LOT of people's characters.
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Re: Sling Downgrade?

Post by Mythic » Thu May 23, 2019 9:00 am

I could understand the Massive criticals being dropped. But then also nerfing the Enhancement by 1 broke quite a few characters/builds that were based around it.

Removing both really doesent seem to make building around what was a good weapon worthwhile anymore. Same with removing it's Runic, All other "End Tier" Ranged weapons have remained the same, seems like an over-nerf to a weapon, to compensate for the races which were using it.
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Re: Sling Downgrade?

Post by Shadowy Reality » Thu May 23, 2019 9:09 am

I understand getting weapons in line with each other. It makes sense to balance it out vs other ranged weapons when you consider a slinger still has a shield.

What makes no sense is to use the Halfling as the basis of the balancing. If you make an halfling slinger the same as an Human Archer, then a Human Slinger will not be on par with a Human Archer.

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Re: Sling Downgrade?

Post by Kenji » Thu May 23, 2019 10:57 am

TL;DR, data below
Slings outperform longbow even on non-hin vs relatively high AC opponents.
Made even worse so when hin is taken into account, pushing almost every single ranged build to go hin and sling or be suboptimal number-wise.

This is not taking into account that pre-nerf slings also get a shield slot, which can potentially double the stats on the user.

Except for Drow/Kobold Zen Archery Healer, which arguably needs a nerf (or repeater xbow needs a nerf) currently with the introduction of repeating xbow. That's for another thread.

Overall, I'd say the nerf is justified and just at the right place. One can go for more AC and potentially more stats, or more damage output.

vs 30AC (95% of Arelith PvE content)
Image
vs 52AC
Image
vs 62AC (WM w/ imp. exp. on chasing ranged)
Image

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Re: Sling Downgrade?

Post by Shadowy Reality » Thu May 23, 2019 1:04 pm

Isn't that the same as saying an aasimar elf with a moonblade outperforms a human wielding a greataxe? I do not see anyone arguing for either aasimar racial bonus or moonblade stats to be nerfed as result.

Some weapons are just better than others, that is very true for melee as well, why are ranged weapons being given a different treatment?

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Re: Sling Downgrade?

Post by Nitro » Thu May 23, 2019 1:30 pm

Shadowy Reality wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 1:04 pm
Isn't that the same as saying an aasimar elf with a moonblade outperforms a human wielding a greataxe? I do not see anyone arguing for either aasimar racial bonus or moonblade stats to be nerfed as result.

Some weapons are just better than others, that is very true for melee as well, why are ranged weapons being given a different treatment?
Are you saying we shouldn't balance things because there are other things that are also imbalanced? Or that melee weapons are more imbalanced than ranged weapons?

The former is a laughable notion wherein we just dumpster balance completely and let things be broken. The latter, is a discussion for another topic where you can use maths to show why a melee weapon is imbalanced and how it can be brought into line.

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Re: Sling Downgrade?

Post by Shadowy Reality » Thu May 23, 2019 1:56 pm

Nitro wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 1:30 pm
Shadowy Reality wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 1:04 pm
Isn't that the same as saying an aasimar elf with a moonblade outperforms a human wielding a greataxe? I do not see anyone arguing for either aasimar racial bonus or moonblade stats to be nerfed as result.

Some weapons are just better than others, that is very true for melee as well, why are ranged weapons being given a different treatment?
Are you saying we shouldn't balance things because there are other things that are also imbalanced? Or that melee weapons are more imbalanced than ranged weapons?

The former is a laughable notion wherein we just dumpster balance completely and let things be broken. The latter, is a discussion for another topic where you can use maths to show why a melee weapon is imbalanced and how it can be brought into line.
Not at all. Looking at the numbers above it seems like a well deserved nerf, it is now strictly worse than a Longbow, as it should be, given that you can wield a shield. Earlier comments had made it seem like the baseline for the balancing was halfling, but that does not seem to be the case.

Going on a tangent... I just sometimes wonder how these decisions are made. You just need to look at Longsword and Scimitar, anyone that claims that they are balanced is wrong, or anyone that claims there is balance between a Greataxe and a Scimitar is likewise wrong. It is not by chance that 90% of optimal builds run sword and board, with only a very specific niche for 2h weapons.

Now compare the number of slingers you saw in Arelith over the past year vs the number of scimitar WMs you saw. There are so many more prevalent broken things in Arelith, very often the balance seems to come to where it is less needed.

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Re: Sling Downgrade?

Post by Sea Shanties » Thu May 23, 2019 7:03 pm

I get it, this is all a house of cards and it's difficult to balance for everyone. In a general sense I'd rather see the marginal cases where people figure out how to squeeze best possible numbers from niche builds toned down but still make the builds who don't dip divine grace and might (which seem to be what really screws everything up) enticing and competitive. In this case it might just take the introduction of a new hin sling that discourages paladin dips (Eg a Sling of The Scamp, no lawful allowed) and encourages rogues to use it-- just a thought.

And at the same time if a race has a feat like "good aim", perhaps that SHOULD give them a slight edge. There are a lot of races with edges in the game from stats and gear after all, and if it plays into the archetype that seems like it's the intent.

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Re: Sling Downgrade?

Post by Ork » Fri May 24, 2019 2:43 am

I agree with this. Halflings don't do a lot of things well, but slinging rocks isn't one of them. Let them have that at least.

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Re: Sling Downgrade?

Post by Kenji » Fri May 24, 2019 4:17 am

One thing I forgot to show from the above snapshots is that slings can still turn off rapid shot vs relatively High AC opponents, and that still outperforms the longbow (shortbow in their case) thanks to the +1 AB.

The decision for the hin player would come down to XBow vs Throwing Weapon, but we should recognize that it doesn't have to be slings anymore. Other throwing weapons such as darts and throwing axes are just as viable a choice.

The downside of choosing the non-launcher based ranged weapon would be no extra stats, no auto-reload, and less of a stack.

But they weren't as suboptimal as before. The greensteel variant of the throwing weapons still have massive criticals, but comes at +2 AB instead of +3. (Also craft only, can't be produced via Ranger Archer path)

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