How NOT to die on big PvE events/Hard Epic Dungeons

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Cybernet21
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How NOT to die on big PvE events/Hard Epic Dungeons

Post by Cybernet21 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:16 am

So i am asking this because i feel like either NWN hates me,or i am missing something from it,i hope it's the second one.

Throughout my Character's life he participated on many PvE events or went to a higher level dungeon with a strong enough party. And on almost all of them he died,i was thought it was a bummer but went "These are meant for Epic Players i should be expecting this" so i decided to just keep back just to participate on the events and RP not do much combat,wich worked (But due to some bad luck i still died a few times) the problem is now that i am on Epics,my character should be able to fight on the frontlines.

But i somehow mostly die still(mostly now,not always yay!I can handle a few events) ,today i went with a party of 8 to a High Epics dungeon,two or three characters weren't epic yet.At the boss room of all 8 including the pre-epics i ended up being the only one dispelled,god-saved and then killed at the first 5 minutes. (My build is sub-optimal as in not min maxed but not bad,and all characters had the same buffs of same CL,and i didn't run into a group of mobs+boss alone while my party was catching up)

I know this sounds like a rant but it's not,what i want is advice,does NWN just hate me and i have bad luck or am i missing somethings on the NWN systen wich is why the "bad luck" always falls on my character?If it's the second are there any tips you guys have for me to be able to avoid that from happening most times while still doing actual combat?

I just want to find this out because evrytime it happens i feel bad for my character :lol: Losing credit in other character's eyes
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Re: How NOT to die on big PvE events/Hard Epic Dungeons

Post by The Rambling Midget » Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:27 am

There could be issues with your build, and most likely you're making tactical errors, which could be fixed with a little advice, but that's a difficult conversation to have on the forums. It's really hard to say what the issue might be without knowing your vital stats like AB, AC, HP, etc...

If you want advice on your build, to see where you can shore up defenses, you can post down in Builds & Mechanics.

As for the other part, you could ask an experienced player through tells IG, or stop by the Arelith Discord.
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Re: How NOT to die on big PvE events/Hard Epic Dungeons

Post by magistrasa » Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:46 am

Never let your health be below 50% (Heal skill helps with this, even just a handful of points makes a difference). Prioritize sneak attackers, because they will eat you alive. When the going gets tough, cast darkness and figure out a plan. Sometimes running away to heal and recuperate is a good idea, especially if you can lure enemies into a hallway where only 2 or 3 can attack at a time. Walk around a corner and stealth when you're out of sight. If you want to walk up to a specific target in a skirmish, don't click and hope pathing takes you there, because pathing will make you run directly into a million swords. If you're worried about a group strong mobs, take out a ranged weapon and shoot at what you know are the low-INT targets, because they won't drag the whole group with them if they're stupid enough and you can pick 'em off one by one. Those are the simple stuff that comes to mind, at least.

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Re: How NOT to die on big PvE events/Hard Epic Dungeons

Post by flower » Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:23 am

It is hard to tell, why this happens to you.

I had bd luck with my cleric sometimes too (wrong trap, epic trap, ugly criticals in a row). But we managed these places in 3-4 people. Best thing is to go around in smaller parties, 8+ epic characters in dungeon ruin all fun and make you ask why am i even here.

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Re: How NOT to die on big PvE events/Hard Epic Dungeons

Post by Skibbles » Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:38 am

Take a wizard who can memorize haste/extended haste and mass haste/extended mass haste. Keep it up constantly through the dungeon for a more or less trivial victory.

It requires a tank and a weapon master but there's few things that can stand up to such a nice combination.
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Re: How NOT to die on big PvE events/Hard Epic Dungeons

Post by Baron Saturday » Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:38 am

A few general pointers: If you're not super tanky, don't be the first person to engage. Instead, enter combat AFTER all enemies are already attacking/targeting someone else, and then try to attack an enemy that someone else is also attacking. This way, you keep yourself from being the main target of enemy aggro. If you do notice yourself taking a lot of damage, turn on Improved Expertise, or even ask someone to put you on -guard, and start healing.
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Re: How NOT to die on big PvE events/Hard Epic Dungeons

Post by Zaravella » Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:50 am

Heal kits and heal potions always saves my WM, Zaravella, from imminent death. Also -pray and having a war aspect diety like Tempus or Tyr helps a ton.

Also dont stand in Area of Effect spells... make it a habit to always avoid these area of effects even if it is coming from allies, cuz it can hurt you sometimes too.

Having search skills to avoid traps, and just taking your time, will always help.

Also, dont, quit, NEVER quit in a dungeon just cuz its difficult. Study the left hand screen find out what killed you, fix it if you can. If you need more AC, or more spell resistances.... get it through gear crafting.
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Re: How NOT to die on big PvE events/Hard Epic Dungeons

Post by The Kriv » Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:02 am

Baron Saturday wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:38 am
A few general pointers: If you're not super tanky, don't be the first person to engage. Instead, enter combat AFTER all enemies are already attacking/targeting someone else, and then try to attack an enemy that someone else is also attacking. This way, you keep yourself from being the main target of enemy aggro. If you do notice yourself taking a lot of damage, turn on Improved Expertise, or even ask someone to put you on -guard, and start healing.
right on! back to basics!

The rule of "two healthy enemies are easier to deal with than three wounded ones" applies here.

On your next large outing, if you observe the party starting to get owned by the enemies you are facing, take a moment and examine who is attacking what. Are you playing "man" or "zone" -to use a basketball reference. Man to man fights against big groups makes it a lot rougher than establishing a shield-wall, or some other bottleneck where everyone can gang up on just a couple.

And I know this is a "duh" thing to say, but it always surprises me how often groups descend into 'every man for themselves"

And a tip for survival (another 'duh' thing) if you are starting to get hammered by a foe, and you try to disengage... try to resist the urge to run 'away' from your group. You're better off trying to circle your tanky-players so they can pull what is chasing you off, instead of you pulling that foe far away, where no one can get a good smack on it to get its attention.

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Re: How NOT to die on big PvE events/Hard Epic Dungeons

Post by Revelations » Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:37 am

Baron Saturday wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:38 am
A few general pointers: If you're not super tanky, don't be the first person to engage. Instead, enter combat AFTER all enemies are already attacking/targeting someone else, and then try to attack an enemy that someone else is also attacking. This way, you keep yourself from being the main target of enemy aggro. If you do notice yourself taking a lot of damage, turn on Improved Expertise, or even ask someone to put you on -guard, and start healing.
This is important. Aggro management is key in NWN PvE.

I have a relatively low death count on all my characters, and I've played everything from standard issue WMs to terribly gimped RP builds that could do absolutely nothing on their own, all with MoD. Playing the latter with MoD really makes you learn how do avoid death. Walk around in epic dungeons with about 30 AC and barely over 100 HP, no AB or offensive spells for a few weeks. Would recommend, lots of lessons learned.

1. Know your character's strengths, and weaknesses. What are they good at? AC? Burst damage? AB? Healing? Buffs? Which abilities / uses / spells do you have to micromanage and utilise in the right moment?

There are mostly weaknesses? That's not necessarily a death sentence in PvE. Just identify everything that makes your build what it is.

2. Find your niche. How you can translate your character's strengths into something that your group benefits from? Where do you have to be? What do you have to do? How long can you do <this>, given the enemies do <that>?

At the same time, knowing your weaknesses, what situations do you not want yourself in? What could be dangerous to your character, and the party?

3. Developing different approaches for different situations. Alone and unable to outright go up and basic attack - What other approaches are available to your character? You're with a group, and they're dominating the field - What do you to help them do even better? You're with a group, and you're pushed into defence - What can you do to support the group persist, what can you do to turn the battle in your favour? Learn how to best employ effective measures like darkness, silence, AOE CC, invisibility, etc.

4. Relax. Lots of enemies? Enemies you don't know? Don't storm in. Even if you're cookie cutter WM #231341, just take a second and see how reality matches up with what you know of your character.

5. Take your spot. Low AC but high damage? Manage aggro. Burst damage, disengage. Relocate. If the enemy follows, your fellow WM/Tank/Whatever gets an additional AOO against them, doing more damage than they could without you, and possibly drawing their aggro back to them. Get someone to -guard.

High AC and HP? Still no reason to just put yourself out there between a couple of Githyanki. Know how long it will take for your group to steamroll over them from under your shield. Know how long you can hold before you go down to 33-50% HP, because that's when you should start developing a plan how to heal or disengange.

Your strengths are in buffs and support? Try to grab some CC spells, too, or perhaps a ranged weapon. If you draw aggro, be sure that enemy pathing takes them past your frontliners. They'll get AOOs, and hopefully pull the aggro back to them.

Stick around! Don't abandon the fight, know how to use your team members to your advantage. Rather run a half circle right behind your frontliners than drawing several enemies to the ones in the back, or drawing the field apart entirely and getting isolated.

6. Manage aggro. Always. Always be aware of what can draw aggro (CC spells, AOE spells, basic attacks, being the first in LoS, everything does! Know how do handle it), how you can break it, how you can shift it to tankier characters. Relocating/running can be an important tool. It increases your group's damage output if done right (AOOs, and supposedly your burst / ranged / whatever damage).

You need to be in control of aggro. Control who gets how much damage, learn how to force pathing on enemies.

7. Don't get isolated or stuck, ever. If you're circled by enemies waiting in rows around you, attack enemies in a line before you. Don't turn to any other direction, until you've cut a way out, then run.

8. Meleer? Grab a ton of healing kits. Imp exp and heal away.



There's definitely more, but you get the idea.
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Re: How NOT to die on big PvE events/Hard Epic Dungeons

Post by Cybernet21 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:17 pm

These are all very helpful!Some tips already do,but others i had no idea so thanks for pointing them out guys! (For example everytime i started doing bad or got unlucky with the enemy rolls,i would try to step away from my party to a more "secure" place to heal and rebuff but it seems it's better i get closer to my party to do that)
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Re: How NOT to die on big PvE events/Hard Epic Dungeons

Post by Revelations » Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:00 pm

9. Use your surroundings. Make chokepoints and narrow passages your friends. Corners and objects in the way can be a friend, too, if you know how to use them. If there is more than one enemy, corners and objects sometimes cause NPC enemies to run a long way to reach you, having to circle around other NPCs, potentially triggering AOOs while being unable to attack for a few seconds. Sometimes pathing doesn't allow them to reach you, either.

10. If you're with casters, true flamers or so, and you don't have a lot of HP and AC, running around in circles in a smaller radius to avoid being attacked constantly is more useful than standing still and eating damage. You can even lead enemies into AOE effects, if you manage to keep aggro up.
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Re: How NOT to die on big PvE events/Hard Epic Dungeons

Post by flower » Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:28 pm

Also large parties i experienced always just run ahead steam rolling everything with many people dieing, that is why i tend to avoid these large group, low to zero tactic, and npcs die like flies, no challenge :O

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Re: How NOT to die on big PvE events/Hard Epic Dungeons

Post by Rooshi49 » Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:54 am

I'm honestly surprised that noone mentioned this, so I'll go ahead and give some advice on this. IMHO, the single most important thing when dealing with epic dungeons or anything thats so difficult it requires multiple people, is team composition. If you play any sort of competitive game, whether its PVP or PVE, some of the most important things to look out for are three things.

Team Composition
Individual Skill
Team Cohesion

Individual skill is something that most of the responses have been about, (which I would consider building your character apart of individual skill) so I won't cover that. But instead I'll cover the other two.

Team Composition: is essentially what sort of PCs you have with you when you form a team.

For example: If you have say 4 people and all 4 are WMs, then you probably shouldn't go somewhere where melee is a bad offense. 4 WMs are also extremely squishy with little to no saves and no physical tank, but the cookie cutter has Evasion! That means you can actually stand in a meteor storm and have a fighting chance at not being hit. But the thing is, 4 WMs is a very bad composition. If you really wanted a better composition, a single wizard with mass haste and protection from spells could boost the AC of the other 3 WMs by 4 AC, give them another attack per round and +8 saves from spells.

Whats even better than 3 WMs and 1 Wizard? Add a bard. Then you have 2 WMs for physical damage, a wizard for DC spells, evocation spells, or summons, and a bard that gives Bard song, which adds +5 AC, +2 AB, +3 bludgeoning damage, +3 Will, +2 Fort and Reflex, and +8 skills (which counts towards the healing skill, so everyone can heal better now). As a bonus, Bards are actually pretty good tanks! They can use -guard for one of the WMs.

Now you have a team which went from 4 WMs all doing physical damage, to a team with two WMs doing physical damage with +9 AC, +2 AB, +3 Bludgeoning damage, + 11 Will saves from spells, + 10 fort and reflex from spells (which will help the WMs take no damage against meteor storm). You also have a Wizard for other utility other than being a buff bot, and a physical tank!

At this point I would say theres a pretty solid team comp going on right now, you might not even need the fourth person! You have a wizard for utility, a PDPS (physical damage per second), and a Physical tank! Just about everything you might ever need. But lets say you really want someone else to join you, for the RPs!

Good options:

Archers / Arcane Archers: (provide more DPS without having to get in the frontline)
Healer Clerics / Conjuration Cleric / Evocation Cleric: (Can heal people, always good / Provides another tank / It can murder everything)
Rogues/Assassin: (Can be a moot point if you have a wizard with a pocket fairy, but still extremely useful for utility, killing high priority targets, and LOTS of DPS if you can get someone to -guard them)
PDK (Purple Dragon Knight): (ERMERGERD, team comp galore, that person can double -guard, so they can be a super tank! As well they provide elemental immunities)
Evocation Sorc / Path of the True flame / Warlock / Necromancy Sorc: All excellent sources of MKPS (Magical Kills per second)
. . ETC

Team Cohesion:
The other thing I mentiond to keep note of is team cohesion. So it doesn't matter how good of a team comp is if you say . . . invert the front and back lines and let the wizard or rogue run in first. (this is kind of covering what others said about agro management)

The Front line: All the melee's and tanky people. Remember, tanky characters come in all shapes and sizes, whether its your tanky paladin, your bard, your friendly neighborhood palemaster in their not-so-tanky looking robes, etc.

Back line: Generally consists of everyone needing to be protected, but not with -guard. Remember now, if someone is far away -guard doesn't really help them, so leave your backline alone. But if you have the enemy bottlenecked at a choke point and someone manages to get by and start attacking your backline, you should send someone to help them (assuming it doesn't break your frontline)

Another thing is, there are certain . . anti-synergies that can happen in any team game.
Example: Lets say theres a spellsword fighting a lich! And a bard decides, I want to silence that Lich, BEGONE FOUL LICH! But oh no! If the bard runs into the Lich and the Spellsword, he'll silence his own teammate. OOPS!

So knowing your party member's play styles can help alot. Knowing how you should form a party and what each person should do in certain situations is also important. Set someone to be the healer kit person. You should NEVER let the physical tank heal themselves with healing kits. It makes them flatfooted! BAD BAD BAD, they'll most likely die. Set someone to pick off all the enemy mages while someone else tanks the first wave of enemies.

Another thing to note is knowing your dungeon. Someone mentioned that you should walk through a dungeon with low HP and AC just to see how the layout is and what you're up against. GREAT IDEA. There are dungeons with lots of IGMS spam, there are dungeons with lots of Meteor storm spam, there are dungeons with none of that. If you're a team that can handle Meteor swarm, like say . . . a rogue, a WM, a Wizard, and Paladin tank with a rogue dip then YAY!

Image

But if you don't have that sort of mashup, don't even touch that place with a ten foot pole. If you say have a low reflex team, but with rogues who can take out mages before they can auto-buff and start spamming IGMS, then YAY! *insert meme*

If you don't have a physical tank? Lets say you're a meme-dream-team of four rogues. Then you shouldn't go somewhere with lots of physical DPS, you should probably go somewhere where you can sneak attack and kill the enemies very quickly. Try all stealthing and engaging simultaneously.

If you have any questions I've made an already monstrous wall of text, I can always answer them some other time :D.
I hope this all helped.

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Re: How NOT to die on big PvE events/Hard Epic Dungeons

Post by msterswrdsmn » Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:43 pm

So, I don't know your build or what your parties are like, so I can't give super-detailed advice. Some general tips, though?

1. Know your build
Even if your build isn't super strong, its going to be more or less geared towards some form of combat (melee or ranged offense, defense, spellcasting, crowd control, or support). Figure out which area you're best at, which ones you're passable at, and which ones you suck at. The harder an area is, the more you're going to have to learn to play to what you're good at.

2. Exploit weaknesses
This requires proper preparation. UMD helps tremendously with this (death ward or shadow shield vs necromancy, for example). Remember; you don't need to kill something if you're in a party. You just need to keep it from killing you/you're team. For example, a level 6-7 bard can self-silence themself and run right next to that epic mage spawn. Is the level 6 bard going to kill anything? Absolutely not. It will keep the spellcaster from haste-casting IGMS/Horrid wilting at your party long enough for the stronger party members to take it out, though!

A lot of being good at PVE goes around knowing how to exploit weak points of the npcs in the area.

3. Team Effort
Kinda like with any team-oriented game; unless you're very specifically built to handle something along, you need to plan/coordinate with your party. Preferably, with people you play with often so you can get used to how you all approach things. HUGE groups are awful for this; everyone does there own thing, and i've personally found I spend more time chasing after Leroy Jenkins # 1, 2 and 3 trying to keep them from dying.

Smaller groups often work best for PVE. In particular, try to find players of other classes/playstyles. Personal example: Sei and Tua make a horrifically destructive PVE team as they have very, very different ways of fighting that synergizes very well together. The most i'd take for a serious PVE run is a party around 5-6 people with different skillsets and strengths. Something around 3 to 4 works best for semi-familiar people, and a partner with good skills/different strengths works very well as well.

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