Playing evil on the surface

[Baron Saturday]

There have been a lot of threads lately about people who have had negative experiences with playing evil or otherwise "undesirable" characters on the surface. I was also frustrated in my own most recent attempt, as I found it a very lonely and nerve-wracking experience. So! Question time. What positive experiences have evil surface-dwellers had, and what suggestions or advice do you have for people interested in creating an evil character on Arelith's surface?

Let's please avoid the negative stories, as I'd like this thread to produce something useful and not get immediately locked!

[Dalek Caan]

Years back when Quimelya and Venmelya (or later Nelyata or Lordaryn) ruled the abyssal forces, I had a major blast. We hung out at the guildhouse, did rituals, went for grind runs to get lowbies from the prime to the abyss, went to negotiate with drow, etc., etc.

It was pure awesome. Basically a small army of never-do-gooders exchanging punches with Benwick and trying to get control wherever we could.

Granted that was... about 6 to 10 years back (I genuinely can't place it properly), so things have vastly changed

[Nitro]

Advice: Find like-minded individuals, otherwise you will end up feeling alone and ganged up on.
Don't flaunt your evilness. If you're a warlock or necromancer, keep the demons and undead on the down low. If you're exposed early you'll have a real hard time leveling.
Befriend a good guy, no one will be a better defence than a good guy convinced you're not bad when the accusations start flying.

And most important, have a backup plan. If all your ideas fall through and you get exposed early, becoming shunned and reviled, have a plan for it. Be that going to sencliff, sibayad or andunor, pretending to repent, doubling down to become a cartoon villain etc. If you aren't prepared for failure you won't enjoy playing a bad guy in the first place.

[The Rambling Midget]

[...]what suggestions or advice do you have for people interested in creating an evil character on Arelith's surface?

I think that the first thing you have to accept when you make an evil character on the surface, is that you will never have "ownership" of it. You will always be hunted, always on the run, always being confronted. Even if you're sneaky insidious evil, your hold on anything will be temporary, because you don't truly belong in polite society, and someone will always eventually find you out.

So, the game is not to "win" by taking over, but by holding back or foiling the keepers of the status quo, or remaining in a position of power for the longest time before they discover you or have the means to overpower your supporters and remove you. Your role is going to be a dynamic one, and its rewards exciting, but fleeting. Your story, like all others, will end, so it's vital to remain focused on the goal you've set as your metric for success. Losing a battle is less demoralizing when you know that you still have a chance to win the war.

It's also critical to understand why your character is evil aligned. To become so, they must be doing, or be willing to do, things that are considered unacceptable. A character that does these things without motivation beyond the act will not last very long, because those acts will inevitably be interrupted or hampered, making them less enjoyable. However, a character that has deep personal reasons for their evil acts won't be deterred by an effort foiled in the moment, and that motivation will pass on to the player.

I honestly believe that the main reason for evil surfacer burnout is the lack of a RP reason to continue. It's easy to find yourself attracted to the mechanical power of Warlocks, Necromancers, and whatever else, and start up an evil character on a whim, but without some overarching goal to cling to during the hard times, (of which there will be many, for someone choosing to live among enemies) it will feel as if there's no reason to continue. Evil acts are a means to an end, not an end unto themselves.

[Tarkus the dog]

I don't think that the issue is in the evil characters as much as it is with Arelith's community as a whole. Some people like to play with their friends, and they don't like others being part of that experience. Often they won't need a reason to exclude your characters, and if one is given ( them being evil, for example ) then they'll use it to all hell. Arelith is great at alienating players, and you'll really need to dig your way in order to get something done. The advice that I can give you isn't really in regards to playing evil characters, but playing in overall - to have someone you can rely on should your experience become too draining.

Ironically I always had an easier time playing shady characters, since otherwise I need to keep up to some good aligned expectations. I don't know, I think it's because I'm a generally piece of shit person in real life. However, know that with enough effort and determination you can run into players who will absolutely love creating a story with your character, whether they are evil or not. Getting there can be really frustrating and exhausting though, which is why I recommend just doing what everyone else does - bring a friend along.

[Hazard]

In my opinion evil characters have it far too easy on the surface.

[Artenides]

I always wanted to play this character that robs others but has excellent manners and acts like a gentleman. "I am very grateful for you offering your values willingly. I am truly sorry for your inconvenience. Don't mind my weapons, they are here for your own safety. No harm will come to you".

Or this rogue that would do shady things "for the sake of common good". But never created them, because - as Tarkus said - life can be pretty lonely sometimes...

[Emotionaloverload]

All of my positive experiences from playing with bad guys (tm) and playing as the bad guys (tm) came from making situations personal. Sure, there will always be times when the good guys come by to break bottles on your head but then you can decide which one to single out or be singled out to further exchange blows with.

This has the benefit of opening up a lot more rp because both characters usually try to learn about each other in order to get the upper hand or gather allies based on the situation and the respective targets. It can turn into a huge plot or be a little one. Your bad guy can also have a grudge list and wait for the right time to poke one of them in the eye (maybe during an election or their wedding) which gives an element of surprise and planning that can help mitigate the loneliness.

-S

[TimeAdept]

In my opinion evil characters have it far too easy on the surface.

Can you elaborate on what you would prefer the 'evil experience' to look like on the surface?

[Baron Saturday]

In my opinion evil characters have it far too easy on the surface.

Can you elaborate on what you would prefer the 'evil experience' to look like on the surface?

I'm actually going to nip this in the bud. While I respect your opinion, Hazard, I'd like to keep this thread focused on advice for playing surface evil, since I personally was having difficulty with it.

[Dagonlives]

Playing an evil character is an exercise in failure. You have to enjoy the journey. You are going to lose, that's just inevitable the way Arelith is set up as a setting. Your goals will likely be unaccomplished, and you'll have a harder time getting anything done. The advantage is a different role as an antagonist. Using stuff like necromancery, or warlock mage, or infernalism. Evil is often more powerful, in this sense. As an evil concept, you get to pick the fight, and be the (I.C) hostile force.

I have captured over 10+ players as prospective slaves. Every single one of them has escaped using a portal lens or a wizard teleport. Every. Single. One. Unless the player ignored those options, in which case they were in a pickle. I pretty much had to kill them or let them go.

The fact that it is so laughably easy to escape a jail or ignore character permeance is nothing I can really deal with. So I choose to focus on episodic theme. That's a better way to handle it, and more within the server spirit. Dont' worry about capturing the slave, or taking that town for Bane. Just the act of attempting it is going to generate alot of waves, and create some good fun. My current concept is still in my opinoni, a successful slaver/pirate concept, even though I've only caught one P.C out of some fourteen examples.

This is mostly because Arelith is designed for that episodic style of play. Captain Kirk always gets away from the Klingons, and so Good is always going to end up escaping or triumphing. Accepting that, and you'll enjoy the journey much more. (Though, teleportation could as I've specified before, use a look again, as it invalidates almost all involuntary conflict.)

As a 'surfacer' you will likely have to conceal your nature. Very carefully. Tell no one, give no reference, don't use your abilities openly. Metagaming is very rife and common here. That said, playing a secretive evil concept is an exercise in failure anyway, since the moment you kill someone, they will respawn and tell on you. So really you'll have a good time if you keep the following things in mind:

1. Don't expect to win aside from influencing Andunor. Enjoy the journey.

2. Make interaction more about episodic plot then a general overarching conflict.

3. Don't be too concerned about concealing your evil from everyone OOCly. The moment you cast your first warlock spell, most players will know what you are later anyway. Especially since the disguise system doesn't work. Expect to get caught.

4. You will get in trouble, or prosecuted just for existing. That's part of the deal. Evil characters rarely (and frankly shouldn't) get a fair deal.

5. Invest in a skill that allows you to avoid the majority of the playerbase, such as disguise, sneaking, or powerful magic. This will help faciliate your path of evil.

6. If all else fails, go to Andunor for asylum.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Playing an evil character is an exercise in failure. You have to enjoy the journey. You are going to lose, that's just inevitable the way Arelith is set up as a setting. Your goals will likely be unaccomplished, and you'll have a harder time getting anything done. The advantage is a different role as an antagonist. Using stuff like necromancery, or warlock mage, or infernalism. Evil is often more powerful, in this sense. As an evil concept, you get to pick the fight, and be the (I.C) hostile force.

I agree with the brunt of this sentiment. There are exceptions (and you can take a walk through the ruins of two cities if you happen to forget this), but by and large, in the Forgotten Realms, evil swells and grows in numbers and power so that the forces of good can muster the courage and power to save the day and overcome all odds.

You can achieve your goals, but it should be a pleasant surprise rather than an expectation.

[Rooshi49]

Does good truly have to win all the time? I feel like it should be more of a back and forth thing.

[The GrumpyCat]

Honestly, I think it's less 'good' and more 'Status Quo'. And that's a thing that goes both ways.

Perminent changes to the server are very rare, and generally when they are they're Dev driven, rather than Player, or DM driven. Note that I say 'generally'. There are exceptions of course, as there should be, but they're not common. This is because ultimatly more things have to be taken into account than the desires of our characters, or us.

Sure, your Drow might want to destroy Cordor. Might even work hard for it. But if that happens, where do all the new players go?

Sure, your Paladin might want to destroy Andunor- but where do all the underdark players go?

Sure - Your Necromaner might want to obliterate the Heartwood Grove- but won't that be bad for all the druid players? Is it fair on them to just undo all their work, and all their class connections?

Ok, so your Goodly Priest of Bahamut wants to kill all the dragons on Red Dragon Isle and settle it as New Wharftown - but won't that dungeon be missed? Where will people get their xp from? Do we really need another settlment?

On a player level, one can of course 'win' by destroying another PC - But that is, and should be, up to the pc in question. That can't, and shouldn't, be 'enforced' upon a player beyond a certain point.

To use the example again - let's say my Paladin kills your Pale Master. Then I drag you off and throw you into the Light of Benwick, then say in a tell: "Right. You're now my Squire and lawful good. You gotta give me all your gear and gold, and follow me around singing my praises and doing my bidding. No more evil from you!'

This would be as unfair as playing another character, getting captured by Drow, and being told 'Right now you're 100% my slave forever, give me all your gold and then enjoy hours and hours of torrture rp for my fun!'

Now if either of these parties want to -chose- to go down that rout? Absolutly fine. But 'forcing' a change upon another pc, entering a conflict under the expectation that, if you win, the server will be indelibly marked by your passage, or other PCs will be forced to delete and/or be your helpless slaves forever is pretty unreasonable.

This isn't about 'Good' or 'Evil' this is about 'Change.' Sometimes people and things will change in response to your actions, if you do it well, if the players are amenable, if you make it interesting and if you make a good narrative. But it should nevre be an 'expecation' on either side. That's just not feasable.

EDIT: It should be noted, that as generally 'Evil' is all about 'change and chaos' and 'good' is all about 'harmony' and 'order' (Maintaining the status quo really) it can come across that 'Good' wins more than evil, or that evil's efforts don't meet with success. But I submit that this is more often because of the above mentioned nature of the server. Change is slow to occur.

[JubJub]

There are plenty of evil people who have openly walked the surface and Cordor and aren't murdered on sight. A lot is going to depend on the type of evil you are seeking. If you are a known murderer that's known for torturing and killing innocent, then yes you might have a hard time.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Does good truly have to win all the time? I feel like it should be more of a back and forth thing.

Good doesn't always have to win, but it usually has to win when it matters, or the story tends to grind to a screeching halt.

To use a light-hearted example, take the reason Wile E. Coyote never got to eat the Road Runner for dinner. Besides the fact that it was a cartoon marketed to young(er) children, unlike broken bones and burns, cartoon magic doesn't readily heal being digested and would "end the story." It's also why Sylvester never ate Tweety Bird or Speedy Gonzalez (although he admittedly got much closer than Wile. E ever did).

As long as people continue to enjoy watching the Coyote go splat, he is never going to get his Meep Meep dinner.

Of course, the odd exception exists- there is an opera episode involving Elmer Fudd and Bugs Bunny. Spear and Magic Helmet. But guess what? Bugs Bunny hit that respawn button for the next cartoon.

[Rooshi49]

Does good truly have to win all the time? I feel like it should be more of a back and forth thing.

Good doesn't always have to win, but it usually has to win when it matters, or the story tends to grind to a screeching halt.

To use a light-hearted example, take the reason Wile E. Coyote never got to eat the Road Runner for dinner. Besides the fact that it was a cartoon marketed to young(er) children, unlike broken bones and burns, cartoon magic doesn't readily heal being digested and would "end the story." It's also why Sylvester never ate Tweety Bird or Speedy Gonzalez (although he admittedly got much closer than Wile. E ever did).

As long as people continue to enjoy watching the Coyote go splat, he is never going to get his Meep Meep dinner.

Of course, the odd exception exists- there is an opera episode involving Elmer Fudd and Bugs Bunny. Spear and Magic Helmet. But guess what? Bugs Bunny hit that respawn button for the next cartoon.

I would refrain from using cartoons IRL to explain away why Good always "has" to win. Those cartoons are teaching a moral lesson. And theres only a dichotomous relation between the Good guy and the Bad guy, so if Bad wins, then Good disappears.

I like GrumpyCat's explanation better. Good wants to keep the established status quo in balance, and evil wants to upset that balance. But I don't want anyone to go around and say that at the end of EVERY single narrative plot line, good HAS to win by some unspoken rule of the server.

Lets just use your example then. In Arelith if the good aligned players were Speedy Gonzalez and the evil aligned players Wile Coyote, then who cares if Speedy Gonzalez gets eaten? The show isn't over, there are tons of other Speedy Gonzalez's everywhere. Is it impossible to make some sort of dystopia? I don't see why evil couldn't win and continue winning.

EDIT: Sorry if this is a bit off topic from the OP's requested discussion.

[flower]

Everyone thinks that being evil means being just some damned bandit or murderer.

I recently play Pathfinder Kingmaker. Majority of story linie companions are chaotic neutrals, and two neutral evil characters.

One is Regongar. He is loyal to party. But he never cares for others. When we capture enemie, he goes for kill. When peasants uprise, he suggests to send in troops (is my general). He is direct, unmoral, dealing with things in rough and ugly manner. But he is not a lunatic walking around, killing people and making plots to destroy cities.

https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Regongar

[Aren]

As a 'surfacer' you will likely have to conceal your nature. Very carefully. Tell no one, give no reference, don't use your abilities openly. Metagaming is very rife and common here. That said, playing a secretive evil concept is an exercise in failure anyway, since the moment you kill someone, they will respawn and tell on you.

Not trying to derail the discussion but I think this is a valid critique of the death system, especially now when the disguise system isn't functional. You can try to play a corrupting force or an evil character who conceals his identity, but as you say: metagaming is common. There's no incentive to play an evil character (besides a murder hobo which isn't really fun).

[Cerk Evermoore]

Having leveled a couple surface monsters / evil types, i feel i have some experience. The biggest problem leveling evil on the surface are epics killing level 13s. Most folks you encounter who are your level usually just flee to get epics. Most likely in the form of a paladin to indiscriminately one shot you.

You cant even party with evil, i had an arcane archer who was indifferent to all that stuff and just cared about doing his writs, he was like level 9 alongside a true flame a bard and a necromancer, we had some random group charge us from across the field and attack us without going hostile, followed by 10 minutes after we kill them, (because it was 2 v 4) a bunch of level 30 epics show up looking to kill you because they heard from the loser 5 minutes after the death half way across the surface that bad guys dared to exist somewhere.

This was in the swamp so it wasnt even in the domain of any kingdom. Like they didnt even try to find out what was going on, just an "Undead ur dead" type scenario and even if you win. Expect to leave your questing spot because a level 30 is on route.

I also think its kinda dumb when folks go look for a single gnoll or goblin someone saw. Like lmao that shit naturally occurs on the surface. I dont see folks forming raids to push the gnolls out of the arelith forest or the encroachment of ogres near the Radient Heart. It just seems meta gamy to put player monsters into some big different catagory then their npc clones.

and if lenses need to be instant in the name of pvp balance, why can i block lenses? Just seems weird and inconsistant. It is either players should be able to easily escape with lenses to escape uncomfortable situations or they can't. It creates a situation where the argument that "folks have a right not to participate in unwanted scenarios" right out the window because here's an in game ability that denies the ability for the person to lense away.

All the Abjuration epic focus makes people do is force folks who already rely on wizards to rely on them more. Or do what i did and roll an abjuration character because i was sick of the shit. Why should my villian be 300% more effective then the others in RP interactions just because i am a spell caster and used 3 feats?

Folks cant lense away from me and so they are forced to interact. What makes my guy so different then other aspiring villians who's only mistake was not playing a caster?

ESF Abjurarion is to villians what blind fight is to melee, non optional core. Fighters spend 3 feats to get 4 AB. But once folks are asked to spend 3 feats on their caster to get an amazing rp ability like yoink or scry or project image. People start losing their minds and start acting like it is some big deal if those abilities were toned down. Despite the fact +6 dc in spells really isnt that bad.

Also evil must never triumph because it makes things weird to RP. Its definately happened before on other servers and can happen again.

[Reallylongunneededplayername]

Be Katanana?

[Baron Saturday]

Hey, really appreciate everyone's contributions so far. I'd just like to remind folks to focus on POSITIVE interactions they've had as surface evil. I already know what the problems and challenges are! I want to hear how they were successfully solved and overcome.

[DM Wraith]

Alright guys, let's keep it civil and watch the language here.

[The Kriv]

I also think its kinda dumb when folks go look for a single gnoll or goblin someone saw. Like lmao that shit naturally occurs on the surface. I dont see folks forming raids to push the gnolls out of the arelith forest or the encroachment of ogres near the Radient Heart. It just seems meta gamy to put player monsters into some big different catagory then their npc clones.

You know, I have a rule in my house about spiders. If they stay in their little corners which they have claimed, they are allowed to live out their lives as happily as a spider can be. BUT... that spider comes down and starts crawling around my coffee table???

DEAD!!!



I think about this every time a stray goblin or drow are spotted on the surface.

I also remember back to the days when Surface and Underdark player-races were set to hostil... that wheny ou ENCOUNTERED a drow, they were red to you ... or if you were a drow, and encountered a surface elf.. they were red to YOU.

This made things naturally more tense. It created that kind of anxiety of impending danger, but kind of in a good way. I remember playing Orion Stormwood back when he was in his original pre-epics... back around AR 90's... and Drow would come to the Grove on a small raid of sorts. I remember one time logging in at the back of the Heartwood Cavern (where all those crafting stations are), and coming around the corner to the front part of the main cavern to discover 3 drow (1 warrior, 1 roguey & 1 caster) had one of my fellow Grovers down on the floor next to the Message Boards. I froze in my tracks. "HOLY [EXPLITIVE]!" I thought. I instantly went to stealth and hoped they didn't see me and at first they didn't.... but... the drow of course spotted me in my paultry 25 hide skill and immediately started moving towards me telling me to submit... blade and shield already raised... and I remember the pure terror at the first sight of their "red'ness" -of course I didn't, and Orion open fired on the warrior, who of course had AC up the hoo-hoo, and he put me down in 3 swings, and resed me inside a quarter with the other Grover... we were "RP" bound and gaged and left there. The drow group OOC we assumed departed... which we both RP'ed struggling to get out of our bonds, and after sufficient time had passed, made our way to Myon to sound the alarm.


How would this play out today? I would have logged in my character, come around the corner. Seen one character on the ground, and three other characters standing all having a conversation, which I would originally had been too far to hear, and so I would have casually walked up and greeted them. MAYBE ... I would take the time to 'examine' one of the strangers and MAYBE that character would have something in their description that would clue them off that they were drow. But likely that wouldn't have been my first reaction.

The act of turning the corner.. seeing from across the room the instant threat of the "Red" drow raiders Inside the Heartwood Cavern would never happen today. And that kind of makes me a little sad.

[Durvayas]

I also think its kinda dumb when folks go look for a single gnoll or goblin someone saw. Like lmao that shit naturally occurs on the surface. I dont see folks forming raids to push the gnolls out of the arelith forest or the encroachment of ogres near the Radient Heart. It just seems meta gamy to put player monsters into some big different catagory then their npc clones.

You know, I have a rule in my house about spiders. If they stay in their little corners which they have claimed, they are allowed to live out their lives as happily as a spider can be. BUT... that spider comes down and starts crawling around my coffee table???

DEAD!!!

Pretty sure Cerk's point was that there are tens of thousands of goblins and gnolls on the surface of Arelith, but somehow if a goblin or gnoll PC are spotted, it becomes a manhunt.

As to the topic at hand, good evil experiences on the surface.


Playing Rauvlin as the Arachknight, serving As'bel Dore when her slice of evil decided to lay claim to Sibiyad.

That was back when Stellen Varg was working with us, and we had the guildhouse in the cliff. The dynamic between our evil characters and the shady encounters we had with neutrals and the occassional goody who came to Sibiyad was a lot of fun.