Improved expertise.

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Invader_Nym
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Improved expertise.

Post by Invader_Nym » Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:52 am

Does improved expertise deactivate when a character is incapacitated (e.g. hold person)? If not, can it? If I'm not mistaken the default behavior is for it to remain activated. Obviously it doesn't make sense that a character would be able expertly defend themselves in battle when they're incapable of fighting or moving.

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Re: Improved expertise.

Post by The Rambling Midget » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:02 am

My characters stay expertly posed at all times so that even when they're held, the defensive posture remains impenetrable.

No, it doesn't deactivate.
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Re: Improved expertise.

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:45 am

The Rambling Midget wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:02 am
My characters stay expertly posed at all times so that even when they're held, the defensive posture remains impenetrable.
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Re: Improved expertise.

Post by Invader_Nym » Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:17 am

It really should. This is one of those times when a feature is good for the player, but bad for the game. It seems to me that a plausible strategy for dealing with people with whacked out super high ACs is simply to incapacitate them. As it stands you can have someone totally incapacitated and yet completely invulnerable because they're still somehow fighting defensively.

Logically expertise should be treated more or less like dodge for the purposes of determining when it should apply.

This, I suspect, is a thing that won't change, much like the skill dump, not because keeping it the way it is is the right call, but because people just love it too much.

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Re: Improved expertise.

Post by The Rambling Midget » Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:22 am

Invader_Nym wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:17 am
It really should.
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Re: Improved expertise.

Post by Hazard » Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:47 am

To me it makes sense that the bonus AC should still apply. I strike a defensive stance, I am frozen in place .. therefor I am frozen in my defensive stance (shield raised or whatever) so +AC. Your character can take advantage of this by striking vulnerable parts, but that's a sneak attack, and if your character can't do sneak attacks it's because they don't know how to.

All seems fine to me.

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Re: Improved expertise.

Post by The Kriv » Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:41 am

Hazard wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:47 am
To me it makes sense that the bonus AC should still apply. I strike a defensive stance, I am frozen in place .. therefor I am frozen in my defensive stance (shield raised or whatever) so +AC. Your character can take advantage of this by striking vulnerable parts, but that's a sneak attack, and if your character can't do sneak attacks it's because they don't know how to.

All seems fine to me.
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Re: Improved expertise.

Post by Revelations » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:47 pm

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Re: Improved expertise.

Post by Dirac » Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:55 pm

Invader_Nym wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:52 am
Does improved expertise deactivate when a character is incapacitated (e.g. hold person)? If not, can it? If I'm not mistaken the default behavior is for it to remain activated. Obviously it doesn't make sense that a character would be able expertly defend themselves in battle when they're incapable of fighting or moving.
I think the better question is whether expertise being active whilst you are paralyzed/held/CCd is balanced.

In PvE, I think the answer is yes because when you get CCd, you are already flatfooted and losing your expertise AC would mean certain death. I think reported Wyvern gankings would greatly increase.

In PvP, now that depends on who you ask.

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Re: Improved expertise.

Post by Ebonstar » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:30 pm

the default is it turns off on any movement or change of position but arelith changed it to staying always on

perhaps it should go back to being turned off and tested on the default with the changes talked about
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Re: Improved expertise.

Post by Hunter548 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:48 pm

Is this really something that's so important it needs to be changed purely for a realism arguement?
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Re: Improved expertise.

Post by magistrasa » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:54 pm

A little tangentially related to the topic, but it always seemed a little odd to me that one could just be walking around town with Expertise up. Yep, just totally battle ready and impenetrably guarded while getting some groceries at the corner market, don't mind me. Makes me feel bad for assassins, or anyone else who wants to get the jump on someone. (Not that I guess surprise attacks are exactly a thing on the server anyways, since you gotta roleplay before a fight breaks out.)

That being said, I don't know of a better way to handle expertise mode. If it dropped every time you moved, that just seems like it'd be a pain to deal with.

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Re: Improved expertise.

Post by Ebonstar » Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:06 pm

Hunter548 wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:48 pm
Is this really something that's so important it needs to be changed purely for a realism arguement?
its more of a make sense arguement.

setttlements all have laws about having weapons out or wards in place, which make sense

so why wouldnt it make sense to have someone walking about like he or she is about to be hit by something

are they so paranoid that they cannot leave their house without the sky falling?

expertise and imp are supposed to be combat functions which why when in combat it doesnt fall switching from each hostile unless you had to move around the combat zone.

why cause it makes sense for it to not be active when your rushing to engage a new target outside your reach

its solely for defense and holding that small circle within reach of your body.

So it would make perfect sense to revert it back to turning off when you move about
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Re: Improved expertise.

Post by Nitro » Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:47 pm

That's really stupid though, since it becomes useless when someone can press S to backstep, making it turn off automatically as you move to follow, letting them get a free flurry in before it can be re-enabled. I'd much rather the mode actually works, which it does right now, than have the whole thing scrapped to fix an edge case bug that isn't relevant most of the time.

Also
its solely for defense and holding that small circle within reach of your body.
That's just your headcanon. It could just as well be someone keeping an eye out and being ready for attacks at the expense of not focusing so much on landing their hits.

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Re: Improved expertise.

Post by Fionn » Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:04 pm

Ebonstar wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:06 pm
setttlements all have laws about having weapons out or wards in place, which make sense
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Re: Improved expertise.

Post by Hunter548 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:16 pm

Ebonstar wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:06 pm
Hunter548 wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:48 pm
Is this really something that's so important it needs to be changed purely for a realism arguement?
its more of a make sense arguement.

setttlements all have laws about having weapons out or wards in place, which make sense

so why wouldnt it make sense to have someone walking about like he or she is about to be hit by something

are they so paranoid that they cannot leave their house without the sky falling?

expertise and imp are supposed to be combat functions which why when in combat it doesnt fall switching from each hostile unless you had to move around the combat zone.

why cause it makes sense for it to not be active when your rushing to engage a new target outside your reach

its solely for defense and holding that small circle within reach of your body.

So it would make perfect sense to revert it back to turning off when you move about
"it just makes sense" is a nonsensical argument when so much of the game doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense that most characters above level 15 can get shot with a gun and survive. It doesn't make sense that most characters level 3 and higher can get stabbed with a knife and not have any adverse affects. It doesn't make sense that you have to inhale a whole four course meal for every Cordor Council meeting, or that those Cordor Council meetings last for multiple IG days. It doesn't make sense that Dragons can fly. It doesn't make sense that devils have spent 60 IG years just teabagging Benwick and dying to the occasional grinding trip. It doesn't make sense that aboleths have legs on Arelith. It doesn't make sense that Westin is simultaneously a Tower Shopkeeper and a small child in the inn across the road. It doesn't make sense that Reginalli has been tending the same post for 100 years. It doesn't make sense that your average level 15 STR melee character could throw a car on their back and go do sprints up a mountain. It doesn't make sense for some cities to be able to beam food and water into your stomach whether you want them to or not.


There's a lot that doesn't make sense with the game that we accept because excess realism doesn't help the game. Failing this being some huge balance concern (And I'm not convinced it is given how nobody's provided an argument in favor of it other than "realism/it just makes sense"), just accept that it's a Quality of Life change to make juggling combat modes easier and less annoying, and suspend your disbelief.
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Re: Improved expertise.

Post by flower » Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:02 pm

Expertise means ability to fight on defense not walking around with fists raised up in defense, omg. Come on people.

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Re: Improved expertise.

Post by flower » Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:11 pm

And if we talk about things making no sense then…


...arrows penetrating full platemail armour (this armour was near immune to arrows).
...HIPs...vanishing in plain sight? Yay.
...animal companions and familiars restored on rest allowing their owners to use them as expendable summons instead of permanent death
...scythe being powerful weapon while in reality it is just modified farmers tool which bends on clash against any metal armour lol…


We could go on till the next month. It is a game :D

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Re: Improved expertise.

Post by Invader_Nym » Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:37 pm

magistrasa wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:54 pm
A little tangentially related to the topic, but it always seemed a little odd to me that one could just be walking around town with Expertise up. Yep, just totally battle ready and impenetrably guarded while getting some groceries at the corner market, don't mind me. Makes me feel bad for assassins, or anyone else who wants to get the jump on someone. (Not that I guess surprise attacks are exactly a thing on the server anyways, since you gotta roleplay before a fight breaks out.)

That being said, I don't know of a better way to handle expertise mode. If it dropped every time you moved, that just seems like it'd be a pain to deal with.
Yes, I've always felt this as well. Actually the same thing could be said about monk movement speed. Many of these abilities don't translate well into the game. I think you're right in that expertise being left on all the time is silly, but as you say, I don't know of a cure that isn't worse than the disease.

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Re: Improved expertise.

Post by Durvayas » Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:45 pm

Invader_Nym wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:37 pm
magistrasa wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:54 pm
A little tangentially related to the topic, but it always seemed a little odd to me that one could just be walking around town with Expertise up. Yep, just totally battle ready and impenetrably guarded while getting some groceries at the corner market, don't mind me. Makes me feel bad for assassins, or anyone else who wants to get the jump on someone. (Not that I guess surprise attacks are exactly a thing on the server anyways, since you gotta roleplay before a fight breaks out.)

That being said, I don't know of a better way to handle expertise mode. If it dropped every time you moved, that just seems like it'd be a pain to deal with.
Yes, I've always felt this as well. Actually the same thing could be said about monk movement speed. Many of these abilities don't translate well into the game. I think you're right in that expertise being left on all the time is silly, but as you say, I don't know of a cure that isn't worse than the disease.
As someone who plays an assassin, this is basically a non-issue.

You have to RP with someone before you engage them in PvP. If they're going to use Imp expertise, its going to go up well before you're done RPing with them, so worrying about it being up perpetually is pointless. You really may as well assume its up at all times, and react accordingly. Tag 'em with a gonne.

If your intent is to sneak them to death, and they can't see you... just... follow them. Eventually, they'll need to rest, which drops the mode, and they'll be out of their armor too. Slice and dice.
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Re: Improved expertise.

Post by Invader_Nym » Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:54 pm

flower wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:02 pm
Expertise means ability to fight on defense not walking around with fists raised up in defense, omg. Come on people.
So why is dodge/tumble AC lost but not expertise when you're caught by surprise? Isn't dodge/tumble just another way of fighting defensively?

I mean, just look at the real world. Look at martial arts competitions, where people take combat stances against known opponents, but are much more vulnerable in their day to day lives.

I'm not proposing that expertise while walking around should be disabled, incidentally, as I think there's no elegant way to implement that mechanically.

I'm just proposing that when you're paralyzed and literally can't move, you shouldn't be allowed to fight defensively, because you're not fighting at all. It's a bit of a middle finger to the classes that do crowd control that you can still retain a crazy high AC while being totally inert.

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Re: Improved expertise.

Post by MissEvelyn » Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:16 pm

If you actually manage to get someone captured with a Hold Person spell, if you're lucky enough to be in a position where they don't have Clarity on and their -pray is spent, then yes, it would not only make sense but be fair to the disabling class that the person who is held has all their combat modes canceled.

Disablers (Enchanters) already suffer enough in combat as it is.


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Re: Improved expertise.

Post by Fionn » Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:51 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:16 pm
the person who is held has all their combat modes canceled.
That seems to be requesting a coup de grâce (-coup) command.
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Re: Improved expertise.

Post by The Rambling Midget » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:29 pm

Invader_Nym wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:54 pm
[Many complaints]
You're not wrong, Nym, but if you want to see something change, you need to post in the correct forum.

Arguing about it here will accomplish nothing, unless the argument is all you really want.
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Re: Improved expertise.

Post by Cybernet21 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:49 pm

Why fix something that is working? Please do not revert Imp. Expertise or it will make tons of builds either ruined or annoying to play with on PvE.Plus that wasn't the topic here,the topic was about when the person was incapacitated wich i kinda agree with for realism sake but then again that would mean certain death for some wich isn't really fun for whoever was unable to save.Plus when paralyzed the person becomes flat footed and loses tons of AC already (depending of the build) .
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