Improved expertise.

[Invader_Nym]

[Many complaints]

You're not wrong, Nym, but if you want to see something change, you need to post in the correct forum.

Arguing about it here will accomplish nothing, unless the argument is all you really want.

You're right. Discussing ideas is always a pointless, fruitless endeavor.

[The Kriv]

I guess, the equivalent would be like a clam that closes its shell. When it is threatened, the clamshell gets closed and protection is increased by a great amount. If you magically 'froze' the clam while it was already closed and protected, that isn't going to make it easier to get the shell of the clam open.

Or a turtle that reverts into its shell and clamps itself shut. Just casting 'hold animal' or something on the turtle isn't going to mean you can damage it easier, you still have to un-clamp the shell to do any sort of damage to it... now... if you got the turtle BEFORE it retreated to it's defensive position... you've got all manner of places to attack it from. But once that turtle has gone full defensive, your 'hold' spell isn't gonna expose those soft spots.

(maybe not the best analogy, since they are critters, but I think same sort of basic concept applies.)

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I guess, the equivalent would be like a clam that closes its shell. When it is threatened, the clamshell gets closed and protection is increased by a great amount. If you magically 'froze' the clam while it was already closed and protected, that isn't going to make it easier to get the shell of the clam open.

Or a turtle that reverts into its shell and clamps itself shut. Just casting 'hold animal' or something on the turtle isn't going to mean you can damage it easier, you still have to un-clamp the shell to do any sort of damage to it... now... if you got the turtle BEFORE it retreated to it's defensive position... you've got all manner of places to attack it from. But once that turtle has gone full defensive, your 'hold' spell isn't gonna expose those soft spots.

(maybe not the best analogy, since they are critters, but I think same sort of basic concept applies.)

Preface- I don't actually care if the change happens or not. A melee hit from a caster with a DC high enough to bother casting hold monster is not what is going to kill someone (NPC or otherwise) under a hold spell most of the time, anyway.

I enjoy the QoL of combat modes staying up, and despite playing an enchanter, said enchanter also benefits from defensive combat casting mode also never turning off in the same way someone now does with improved expertise. I suppose it would be 'nice' if being paralyzed turned off all combat modes, for consistency's sake, if the idea went anywhere.

That said- in the turtle example, why would you deal with the shell at all? It's paralyzed. Jam a blade inside the head opening and be done with it. This also applies to the paralyzed full plate and tower shield situation. Find any exposed joint or buckle opening and stab away.

Even the Z team almost got pwned by Guldo when they couldn't move. (And thus it all comes full circle).

[Gobbo Champion Inc]

Expertise works by actively predicting enemy attacks to evade them. Its not reflexes, or some "clam" like shell that suddenly manifests. Thats why the stat requirment is inteligence. It also states clearly in the third edition rules that the armor class one gets from expertise is dodge, even if nwn ignores that aspect of the feat for whatever reason. It makes perfect sense that it would be lost on being disabled.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatExpertise

[Cybernet21]

I think flat-footed is enough when paralyzed and similar. Losing 10+ AC for not saving agaisnt a spell is too much imho. Look at Taunt for example,something specifically made for lowering AC,it caps at lowering AC by 6 otherwise it would be a bit too punishing if someone fails the check agaisnt it.

In some builds if Imp. Expertise dropped too they would lose around 15 AC+ ,that is a bit too big for a single spell not even that high of a level to do.

[The Kriv]

I think we're getting a little bit caught up in the finer points. NWN as a simulation Fails. NWN as D&D also fails.

NWN as an interpretation of 3.0 Edition D&D rules... somewhat okay.

"Expertise" as a feat from D&D is an improved version of fighting defensively. Fighting defensively allows you to take a -4 on your attack to gain a +2 in defense, which translates into a dodge-AC bonus. The "Expertise" feat allows you a 1:1 ratio penalty to gain up to -5 attack penalty for +5 dodge bonus to AC. That is D&D. The NWN interpretation of this is to ignore completely "fighting defensively" and ONLY allow Expertise. Flawed... but that's the reality.

the mechanics of how hold-spells work... if they deny you your dodge bonus to AC, then they should deny you the dodge bonus from fighting defensively and by association, the AC bonus from Expertise.

How that is implemented in the NWN combat engine, like it or not, dictates what can be done in game. So the question needs to be:

1) Is Expertise in the "dodge" category of AC within NWN? Because it should be per D&D rules which NWN is based.
2) Is "Dodge" denied during the above-cited "Hold" or "frozen" conditions within NWN? Because it should be.
3) In an even playing field, you either get to keep your Dodge category or you get to lose your dodge category of AC, you shouldn't pick and chose what 'feats' are turned on or off because ultimately enable/disable is irrelevant. What is relevant is the conditions of AC that you keep and the conditions that you lose given a set of circumstances.

The circumstance defines what category you keep and lose. The circumstance here is "Hold/Frozen" condition. Lets talk less about "expertise" specifically and redirect into Dodge as an AC type.

[Baron Saturday]

1) Is Expertise in the "dodge" category of AC within NWN? Because it should be per D&D rules which NWN is based.
2) Is "Dodge" denied during the above-cited "Hold" or "frozen" conditions within NWN? Because it should be.
3) In an even playing field, you either get to keep your Dodge category or you get to lose your dodge category of AC, you shouldn't pick and chose what 'feats' are turned on or off because ultimately enable/disable is irrelevant. What is relevant is the conditions of AC that you keep and the conditions that you lose given a set of circumstances.

1) No. Expertise & Improved Expertise are "other" AC in NWN, which has no cap, stacks infinitely, and is not lost when flat-footed. It also counts against melee and ranged touch attacks.
2) Yes. Dodge AC, Tumble AC, and Dex AC (unless the character has Uncanny Dodge) are lost when flat-footed. For a character with 30 Tumble, haste, & +1 dodge boots, this equates to 11-12 AC. Most Dex-based characters will have Uncanny Dodge, so won't lose the additional ~14 AC from Dex.

The next two questions that need to be asked are:
1) Can Expertise/Improved Expertise be changed, or are the effects hard-coded?
2) Would losing an additional 10 AC when flat-footed be too much?

[Cybernet21]

1) Is Expertise in the "dodge" category of AC within NWN? Because it should be per D&D rules which NWN is based.
2) Is "Dodge" denied during the above-cited "Hold" or "frozen" conditions within NWN? Because it should be.
3) In an even playing field, you either get to keep your Dodge category or you get to lose your dodge category of AC, you shouldn't pick and chose what 'feats' are turned on or off because ultimately enable/disable is irrelevant. What is relevant is the conditions of AC that you keep and the conditions that you lose given a set of circumstances.

1) No. Expertise & Improved Expertise are "other" AC in NWN, which has no cap, stacks infinitely, and is not lost when flat-footed. It also counts against melee and ranged touch attacks.
2) Yes. Dodge AC, Tumble AC, and Dex AC (unless the character has Uncanny Dodge) are lost when flat-footed. For a character with 30 Tumble, haste, & +1 dodge boots, this equates to 11-12 AC. Most Dex-based characters will have Uncanny Dodge, so won't lose the additional ~14 AC from Dex.

The next two questions that need to be asked are:
1) Can Expertise/Improved Expertise be changed, or are the effects hard-coded?
2) Would losing an additional 10 AC when flat-footed be too much?

1) I have no idea

2)As i stated above i think it is for a single spell to do. Let's say someone who has Imp. Expertise on their build but aren't DEX based (a basic sword and and shield Fighter build for example) ,their Dodge AC+Tumble AC+Dex AC would be around let's say 6 (2 Dodge,3 Tumble,1 Dex) that means a hold spell or anything like it would drop 16 AC if they have Imp. expertise on. Now if it's a Dex Based build like the one Baron mentioned and they have Imp. Espertise too,they would lose around 22 AC.

Question: Should an unlucky roll(or a suboptimal save) that makes a character get paralyzed,stunned,prone,etc...(or a lucky one,for the one who cast the spell)for example make a character lose a whooping 16-22 AC? Isn't 6-12 enough? The mage would probably want to lower a character's AC for a melee friend or summon to attack the enemy,6-12 AC is a lot for melee builds to get hits in already.

I agree that Imp. expertise staying up while paralyzed isn't realistic but this is a game.Also,i am sorry like its sounds like i'm beating on a dead horse at this point,this is the last time i'll point out to the same argument it's just that i think it's a real solid reason to not change.