A question on disguise

[BegoneThoth]

Individuals in discord have been explaining that you, if you wish to beat someones disguise, can simply ask them to remove their helmet or hood. If the head under the hood/helmet looks the same as the person you suspect, even if you did not beat their disguise mechanically, you can now positively ID them both as a disguise and as their true identity.

I felt this was wrong, but was argued with, so I would ask for some on-the-record clarification on it.

[Liareth]

It depends on the situation, but in most cases I would say yes. In the case of a full-body disguise including hood, I generally treat the disguise check as an indicator of suspicion. That is, if I succeed in beating a disguise check, I won't immediately shout "omg that's a drow lynch it!" - I would instead ask them to remove their hood because my character is now suspicious. If I failed the disguise check, I wouldn't ask them to remove their hood because my character would have no reason to be suspicious of their identity.

[BegoneThoth]

That seems reasonable.

But the strategy discussed was to simply ask someone to remove their hood/helm as per some town/city law, somehow revealing them in the process w/o ever beating the disguise because their head looked the same.

[Nitro]

No. There's only what, 22 head models for human males? If they did that, they'd have to accuse EVERYONE with that head model of being the person they're looking for or they're metagaming.

[Blood on my Lips]

Individuals in discord have been explaining that you, if you wish to beat someones disguise, can simply ask them to remove their helmet or hood. If the head under the hood/helmet looks the same as the person you suspect, even if you did not beat their disguise mechanically, you can now positively ID them both as a disguise and as their true identity.

I felt this was wrong, but was argued with, so I would ask for some on-the-record clarification on it.

This sounds so incredibly wrong. I can't even believe anyone would think this is acceptable.

If you fail to break a disguise mechanically, and your character doesn't know that the character in question uses that disguise, you have not identified them. Now, more than ever, with the disguise/bluff system being broken, we as players need to be more respectful of the rules regarding disguise and our fellow players.

To quote Mithreas on the Wiki:

Mithreas:

"If A is using the same disguise as always, B can recognize the disguise. If you have enough information without the floaty name to conclusively recognize someone, then you have enough information. A good RPer will occasionally mistake A in disguise for someone other than A who wears similar clothing, if applicable.

In all cases, we have logs that will be used as the ultimate arbiter, if people are playing silly buggers (on either side). Good advice to all players is to try and bias yourself AGAINST your own character in cases like these."

It's not about winning. It's about having fun. Consider the amount of fun the other player is or is not having when you are in situations like this. Be nice and act in the way you would want to be treated if the roles were reversed.

[The Kriv]

i think the mechanic of disguise only affects your description (including masked stats displayed) and your floaty-name.

Given the limitations of the game, (as previously stated) the 'variety' of head-models is limited.

But the mechanic of "disguise" within the game isn't the fake mustache and glasses. Instead change how you think about disguise.


If you and I have never met, and I introduce myself, "Hi. My name's Harry." you have no reason to believe I am not telling you the truth. But if I say, "Hi. My name is Prince Harry, Duke of Sussex" ... unless I had physically red hair and a little shaggy (but well groomed) beard... you would outright not believe me.

Plug that in game...I'm wearing a hood, or full face-shielded helm and I say, "My name is Harry" you wouldn't have any reason to doubt me... and my floaty name and description being changed means if we meet again, and I don't have those "Disguised" descriptions and stats visible, I could easily tell you my name is "Ralph" and you wouldn't be the wiser. -disguise successful!

But.. If i'm wearing a hood, or full face-shielded helm and I say, "My name is Prince Harry, Duke of Sussex." if you beat my disguise, you're now suspicious and you're going to want to better identify me and so you tell me to take off my helm before you draw your sword and say, "What are you prince of, and where is this Sussex place?"

[Rooshi49]

So as someone who has been using disguise alot lately, I've started to piece together how exactly you should go about it and have some tips for anyone wanting to use the system. .

For starters, change your description using; (From the wiki)

description +save [File name] OR -savedesc [File Name]

This will allow you to save your current description under the name of your choosing, and then reload them using:

-description +rec [Saved file name] OR -recdesc [Saved file name]
-description +del [Saved file name] OR -deldesc [Saved file name]

Then use your journal to write down the [Saved file name] and what it says.

I personally cover myself head to toe and speak and act differently IC to mask my identity. But recently I had someone tell me that because of skin tone, you can identify someone . .

Can I get a verdict on that? Just because someone has a specific skin tone, can you seriously just automatically detect that they're someone specific who happens to be in a disguise?

Also don't let anyone tell you anything of the sort that you can be identified by stuff like: Gait, smell, the sound of your voice. Everything is WYSIWYG (What you see is what you get), so unless you put in your description that you smell, walk, or talk like something you can't be identified. Make sure you change your description using the above method.

But to actually respond to the OP, I think making someone take off your helmet to identify them is just . . . wrong. You can't identify someone because they couldn't wear a mask in game or put on a fake mustache or use magic to mask their identity. Its a limitation of the game . .

[Atlantahammy]

So as someone who has been using disguise alot lately, I've started to piece together how exactly you should go about it and have some tips for anyone wanting to use the system. .

For starters, change your description using; (From the wiki)

description +save [File name] OR -savedesc [File Name]

This will allow you to save your current description under the name of your choosing, and then reload them using:

-description +rec [Saved file name] OR -recdesc [Saved file name]
-description +del [Saved file name] OR -deldesc [Saved file name]

Then use your journal to write down the [Saved file name] and what it says.

I personally cover myself head to toe and speak and act differently IC to mask my identity. But recently I had someone tell me that because of skin tone, you can identify someone . .

Can I get a verdict on that? Just because someone has a specific skin tone, can you seriously just automatically detect that they're someone specific who happens to be in a disguise?

Also don't let anyone tell you anything of the sort that you can be identified by stuff like: Gait, smell, the sound of your voice. Everything is WYSIWYG (What you see is what you get), so unless you put in your description that you smell, walk, or talk like something you can't be identified. Make sure you change your description using the above method.

But to actually respond to the OP, I think making someone take off your helmet to identify them is just . . . wrong. You can't identify someone because they couldn't wear a mask in game or put on a fake mustache or use magic to mask their identity. Its a limitation of the game . .

If i recall the skintone thing comes from "What you see is what you get" because drow have SPECIFIC skin tones, that normally elves don't have, and if they do, are constantly PK'ed for being a drow by those that can't tell racial due to not having enough lore / Not being an elf. (I think Duergar have the same problem)

Drow do the same thing with elves trying to pass as drow with disguise down there, so covering all ones skin color is kinda important.

[BegoneThoth]

But recently I had someone tell me that because of skin tone, you can identify someone . .

Can I get a verdict on that? Just because someone has a specific skin tone, can you seriously just automatically detect that they're someone specific who happens to be in a disguise?

Also don't let anyone tell you anything of the sort that you can be identified by stuff like: Gait, smell, the sound of your voice. Everything is WYSIWYG (What you see is what you get), so unless you put in your description that you smell, walk, or talk like something you can't be identified. Make sure you change your description using the above method.

But to actually respond to the OP, I think making someone take off your helmet to identify them is just . . . wrong. You can't identify someone because they couldn't wear a mask in game or put on a fake mustache or use magic to mask their identity. Its a limitation of the game . .

I would like to know too, partic given how many people use skin tone 0 for human or whatever black every drow uses.

[Rooshi49]

I would agree that covering one's self with clothing is the best way to deal with it.

[The GrumpyCat]

Individuals in discord have been explaining that you, if you wish to beat someones disguise, can simply ask them to remove their helmet or hood. If the head under the hood/helmet looks the same as the person you suspect, even if you did not beat their disguise mechanically, you can now positively ID them both as a disguise and as their true identity.

I felt this was wrong, but was argued with, so I would ask for some on-the-record clarification on it.

How I've seen it in the past Is:

Because there's only a limited amount of appearences, and WYSIWYG, unless your character has something particulary distinctive about their appearence, just removing a hood isn't enough.

So let's say there's Bob, with 100 in bluff. For whatever reason, the player of Bob has Blue hair and Horns (why he has this? I don't know. Let's say he's a 5% character or something)

Joe asks Bob to remove his hood/helm. Beneath hood/helm he can see Bob's bright blue hair and horns. Because this is Super Distinctive he can go 'omg it's Bob!' even without passing the *looks* check.

Now to use another example, let's say Bob is an average human looking bloke. Brown hair, beard, normal head model.

In that case, unless the person succeeds on their spot check, and breaks the disguise, I don't think it's fair for them to recognise Bob. Bob has lots in bluff, it's reasonable to assume with his high bluff, he would be able to appl ymakeup, wigs, ect- things that cant be properly represented IG.


When it comes to things like -description and 'outfit' then that's something to be dealt with more on a case by case basis.

[Dirac]

Hm, wow seems too complicated. It’d be more clear cut if you fail the spot check against their opposing perform/bluff check (a mechanic that is already in place) you cannot identify then. The bob with blue hair thing leaves way to much for interpretation, suddenly you got guys smelling Underdark on people.

[BegoneThoth]

That's what I think should happen.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

To comment on the situation with the law/ordinance about people having to take their helmets off;

For a period of time (before the switch to EE broke the disguise system) Cordor had a lot of enemies and was at war. It was not entirely uncommon at this time for some people to simply throw a hood or helmet on with no actual disguise RP (description or otherwise) and have that be their whole disguise. Sometimes people would bolt around a corner and throw on a helmet and disguise and suddenly you didn't know it was them after starting some kind of trouble.

The solution to the "my helmet is my disguise" dilemma during wartime became that because the city was at war, people were not allowed to conceal their faces in the streets from the the guard force, particularly in the government district- most instances of enforcement that I saw or participated in were asking people to remove their helmets briefly and then letting them go about their business if they weren't obviously someone hostile to the city, with the helmet back on.

Given the situation that prompted the ordinance, it became natural to give anyone that didn't comply a harder time and more suspicion. To be fair, I still maintain the tactic made perfect sense; no one's getting within a hundred feet of a courthouse or a palace while armed and concealing their face at the best of times; when there are actual wars going on expecting otherwise seems conveniently negligent.

[TimeAdept]

Joe asks Bob to remove his hood/helm. Beneath hood/helm he can see Bob's bright blue hair and horns. Because this is Super Distinctive he can go 'omg it's Bob!' even without passing the *looks* check.

This DM ruling just ended Disguise as a functional feature.

Please consider reverting this.

Bob has lots in bluff, it's reasonable to assume with his high bluff, he would be able to appl ymakeup, wigs, ect- things that cant be properly represented IG.

Why can't this apply to blue hair and horns as well?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/disguise.htm

As we can see, disguising as a different age, race, and gender entirely are a pittance in terms of penalties.

[Nitro]

Simple solution, let characters with a high amount of ranks in bluff or perform get access to a menu to change head model and hair colour in the character customization menus.

[The GrumpyCat]

Joe asks Bob to remove his hood/helm. Beneath hood/helm he can see Bob's bright blue hair and horns. Because this is Super Distinctive he can go 'omg it's Bob!' even without passing the *looks* check.

This DM ruling just ended Disguise as a functional feature.

Please consider reverting this.

Bob has lots in bluff, it's reasonable to assume with his high bluff, he would be able to appl ymakeup, wigs, ect- things that cant be properly represented IG.

Why can't this apply to blue hair and horns as well?

[/b][/i]ww.d20srd.org/srd/skills/disguise.htm

As we can see, disguising as a different age, race, and gender entirely are a pittance in terms of penalties.

For the same reason you can't be a drow wearing a bikini and going 'Oh no, I'm actually a moon elf!'

WYSIWYG

This hasn't changed the feature. Ok I'll put it another way.

99% out of 100, you need to break someones disguise to recognise them.

This is REGUARDLESS of the presence, or not, of any Hood, Helm, or other covering.

HOWEVER!

The rules of What You See Is What You Get are still in place. SO there may be edge cases, where DMS go 'No, you female Drow Monk cannot pretend to be a Male Halfling Paladin.

Likwise, if you're playing a Dwarven Red Dragon Deciple, and someone forces you to take off your cloak, revealing your wings... and you're the only Dwarf Red Dragon Deciple around, even if your bluff is 100, it's very reasonable to guess that you are, in fact, That Dwarf.

These are RARE cases though. Generally speaking, for 99% of the time, you NEED TO PASS YOUR SPOT CHECK TO BREACH A DISGUISE, REGUARDLESS OF HELM, HOOD, OR OTHER COVERING.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Joe asks Bob to remove his hood/helm. Beneath hood/helm he can see Bob's bright blue hair and horns. Because this is Super Distinctive he can go 'omg it's Bob!' even without passing the *looks* check.

This DM ruling just ended Disguise as a functional feature.

Please consider reverting this.

Bob has lots in bluff, it's reasonable to assume with his high bluff, he would be able to appl ymakeup, wigs, ect- things that cant be properly represented IG.

Why can't this apply to blue hair and horns as well?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/disguise.htm

As we can see, disguising as a different age, race, and gender entirely are a pittance in terms of penalties.

I honestly and ironically believe that while disguise may mechanically be suffering at the moment, it has never, ever been better-utilized or more honorably interacted with than it has since EE broke it. I have found people to be incredibly, INCREDIBLY good sports about the fact that my character still uses disguises. I've been called out exactly once while attempting to disguise as Cev, and that was because I screwed up and talked out loud instead of whispering (I wasn't RP'ing any alterations to Cev's voice and the person was very familiar with him). I was fine with it.

I'm also presently being very lazy with my disguise description and wouldn't give anyone familiar with the character a hard time for recognizing him as is.

However, I believe it is reasonable that if you want to disguise things like horns, wings, apply make-up, etc, that you should actually put some RP into it. Since disguises ONLY work through examine description right now, which means that you innately must rely on your peers to be good sports in the first place, include the fact that your character has applied make-up, or found a way to hide their horns with their hair. Or that they're dyeing their hair. Give the other player some text to justify ignoring what they see on their screen.

Since disguise only works if the other player is a good sport right now, anyway, it's in your best interest to assume that everyone who reads these details won't metagame them, and address those that do with a DM report.

[Rooshi49]

I think it would really be nice if Disguise could bundle changing descriptions, and the -saveoutfit and -loadoutfit commands into one single interface. Like how you change clothing with a mirror. That would be an amazing QoL.

[Rooshi49]

So . . . sipping potions and buffing up in front of someone and repeated spamming examine on them to hop you can break their disguise by popping your spot up higher is metagaming right? If you couldn't break it the first time, why would you be suspicious IC?

[Rooshi49]

Joe asks Bob to remove his hood/helm. Beneath hood/helm he can see Bob's bright blue hair and horns. Because this is Super Distinctive he can go 'omg it's Bob!' even without passing the *looks* check.

This DM ruling just ended Disguise as a functional feature.

Please consider reverting this.

Bob has lots in bluff, it's reasonable to assume with his high bluff, he would be able to appl ymakeup, wigs, ect- things that cant be properly represented IG.

Why can't this apply to blue hair and horns as well?

[/b][/i]ww.d20srd.org/srd/skills/disguise.htm

As we can see, disguising as a different age, race, and gender entirely are a pittance in terms of penalties.

For the same reason you can't be a drow wearing a bikini and going 'Oh no, I'm actually a moon elf!'

WYSIWYG

This hasn't changed the feature. Ok I'll put it another way.

99% out of 100, you need to break someones disguise to recognise them.

This is REGUARDLESS of the presence, or not, of any Hood, Helm, or other covering.

So could a drow be disguised and take off their helmet without being discovered?

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

So . . . sipping potions and buffing up in front of someone and repeated spamming examine on them to hop you can break their disguise by popping your spot up higher is metagaming right? If you couldn't break it the first time, why would you be suspicious IC?

The mechanic's base nature works as such that the longer you spend around a disguised individual the more spot checks and sense motive chances you get to notice something is off (with modifiers for how familiar you are with the person they're impersonating/who they were originally, etc).

Think of it like this- the longer you spend around someone wearing a wig, the more time a wig has to slip a little bit and show the real hair underneath, or a bead of sweat has to cause makeup to streak a little. Maybe you slip for a moment into your real voice. All manner of things can go on the longer you spend attempting to conceal your identify from the same target for a prolonged period of time.

Deep cover disguises are a thing, but you need to drastically outclass your targets to run a zero-risk infiltration bid- which is good, IMO, and provides a sense of tension to such things.

I'd suggest that the spot-buffing in direct response to failing to break a disguise check could be seen in poor taste, but only if the character doesn't already have a reason to be trying to determine your identity (and further reason to become more suspicious when they can't). This would depend on the nature of the disguise in question. (Covering your face with a shady hood- pretty shady. Walking around uncovered but with makeup and the like? Probably get fewer second glances).

When in doubt, report.

[Rooshi49]

I'd suggest that the spot-buffing in direct response to failing to break a disguise check could be seen in poor taste, but only if the character doesn't already have a reason to be trying to determine your identity (and further reason to become more suspicious when they can't). This would depend on the nature of the disguise in question. (Covering your face with a shady hood- pretty shady. Walking around uncovered but with makeup and the like? Probably get fewer second glances).

When in doubt, report.

The thing is, once someone has broken your disguise by (for some reason) using true seeing, drinking wisdom potions / using owls wisdom spells / polymorphing / Ultravision (if its nighttime). Its all over. Most people just from there somehow automatically know who you are and everything about you.

From there you have them killing you on the spot for disguising yourself and then telling everyone that there was a "suspicious figure" roaming around. Which then gives more people somehow an IC reason to come and know who you are right away.

I get that the system as it currently is is broken and needs to be fixed. But the mere fact that you're disguised, even if you had 1,000 bluff and perform, you'd still be "suspicious" to some people just because you have the disguised tag. You can RP being friendly, dress like every other average joe (sorry to all the joes of the world), have a well written description. . . none of it matters if someone decides to just one time go and spot-buff in direct response to failing to break a disguise check. If you fail it on the first time you shouldn't be suspicious at all. I totally understand that there should be a consistent feedback the longer you talk to them . . . but it would still exist if you somehow removed the fact that the "[you have failed to break a disguise]" appears. You just wouldn't know that you were making rolls.

Think of it like this- the longer you spend around someone wearing a wig, the more time a wig has to slip a little bit and show the real hair underneath, or a bead of sweat has to cause makeup to streak a little. Maybe you slip for a moment into your real voice. All manner of things can go on the longer you spend attempting to conceal your identify from the same target for a prolonged period of time.

Once more, let me reiterate that I totally understand this argument, but I see people just artificially stalling out conversations as long as they can go, possibly even borderline interrogating someone so that they can get more and more and more spot checks off. And if the person tries to leave then its SUSPICIOUS and practically in-rule grounds for just killbashing them. Cause ya know. . . they've RP'd before hand, the person is suspicious and walking away from what the instigating party views as conflict RP. SO... hostile it up and bash them.

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TL;DR
Its complicated. I just don't see how this system can currently function unless everyone plays well and doesn't do anything "in poor taste". I've recently fallen in love with this unfortunately broken system and sorry to everyone if it seems like this is just some angry ranting. Its just my opinion after calming down some and thinking about it.