Are Shadows Evil?

[Diilicious]

This is one question that ive never seemed to be able to get an answer to by ingame means but honestly the setting of dungeons and dragons really doesnt interest me at all.

However you cant seem to even mention shadows in game without "They arent evil!!" being jammed down your throat before you can even type another line of dialogue. My character doesnt like them at all regardless of if they are evil or not they are clearly not a nice thing.

Id just like to pick some peoples brains who might actually have an opinion on this.

So are shadows Evil or not? every speck of evidence outside of the server i have been able to research says they are chaotic evil.

[The GrumpyCat]

There's really two aspects to this question:

A) Are shadows mechanically Evil? How do they generally behave, if left to their own devices?

B) What is the general popular opinion on shadows? How would the average FR commoner react to them?

I'd need to do a bit more lore research before I could say anything with 100% concrete surity, and I also would want to double check with Irongron and the Devs on option B, to check what direction the server should be going in - BUT!

The impression I get is that Shadows are between Neutral and Evil. Shadows are very rarely good, and a shadow dancers Shadow will always reflect the alignment of their owner. But that said, shadows are a lot more 'controlabe' than say, Devils and Demons - and don't have the inherent 'wrongness' of undead.
So answer A) = Neutral or Evil.
Answer B) = Depends a bit on the person obviously, but over all shadows may not be utterly hated/reviled/make peope run in fear, but the majority of people wouldn't particularly like/trust them, or rather someone manipulating them, either.

Again though - this is just my knowledge as is.

[thingsicantdo]

yes, shadows are evil. people might play their concept one way or another, but a shadow (as defined in the D&D monster manual) is an evil, undead abomination of pure negative energy. they are nefarious, cruel, and malicious. they delight in extinguishing life wherever they see it, and hate everything that is good and pure.

in the case of shadowdancers, however, it is supposed to match the alignment of the character (since it's supposed to be that character's shadow, not an undead monster created by another shadow feeding off the life energy of the living).

so... yes. shadows are evil. but #notallshadows

[One Two Three Five]

The shadows that shadowdancers summon IG are True Neutral Outsiders, to answer your actual question. I believe the illusionary ones that Shades now summons (the character copies) are as well.

[Sab1]

Not necessarily evil, but it's reasonable that the average person in the land would probably considers them evil. D&D seems to of bounced around on shadows being undead or not. I remember when a shadow if it killed a person they became a shadow.

[Nitro]

wysiwyg shadows summoned by players are not evil. A paladin can try to smite them and will find out so in game and in character.

However we do have evil shadow mobs on the server so it's very reasonable for any character to think that the summoned shadow is just as bad as the 18 that tried to gank them in the shade-ruins.

[Hunter548]

The problem with this question is that shadows refers to two different things: There's Shadow Creatures (Outsiders, native to the plane of shadows), who are not inherently evil, and then there's Shadow, the undead monster, which is evil.

[TimeAdept]

The shadows that shadowdancers summon IG are True Neutral Outsiders, to answer your actual question. I believe the illusionary ones that Shades now summons (the character copies) are as well.

Yeah, they are. In PnP, the shadowdancer shadow matches your alignment, as well, so there's precedent for the decision to make a non evil shadow.

[Hinty]

Shadows as in the creatures from the plane of shadows are evil. In PnP they are Undead, not Outsiders since they come from the plane of Shadows which is an Inner plane and Outsiders all come from the Outer Planes.


Shadows as summoned by the shadow conjuration spells are Illusions. In PnP they would presumably match the alignment of whatever creature you choose to make the illusion of, or would have no alignment since they are not actually real. In Arelith, I would assume TN. Either way the creation of a shadow illusion is not an evil act, nor is it likely that anyone would confuse them for an evil being.

Shadows as summoned by the Shadowdancer class.... well on Arelith, they are shadowy versions of the caster and they lack any of the strength draining abilities of Shadows (The planar creatures) so I would assume that they are Shadow Illusions much like the Shadow Conjuration spells create, just without any colour components to the illusion. As such, not evil. The fact that they look all shadowy, and thus not unlike the Shadow creatures that live on the plane of shadow however, I can easly see some people with particularly low Lore mistaking them for the undead monsters.

And lets not forget, Shadowdancers can be good aligned, and that would not work with a class that summons evil critters.

[The Kriv]

honestly the setting of dungeons and dragons really doesnt interest me at all.

#Opinion

I think that regardless of whether you like, dislike or are indifferent to D&D as a setting, Arelith 'is' in a fantasy version of medieval times. And in medieval times the common folk (to which adventurers generally are not) would use the stories and tales of creatures that exist as shadows/negative energy are evil things. They are living darkness. They are among the 'monsters' parents use to keep their children safe through fear.

"Oh, Barnable! come STRAIGHT home, and stay under the lamps of the main streets or the SHADOWS will get you!"

Most likely, your characters, unless they were raised by extremely enlightened individuals, would have memories of such stories, and now that they are adults (or young adults at least) your character's interpretation of whether these stories or true or not would likely depend on that individual character's experience across his or her many adventures! Saying your character doesn't like them plays into this! So congratulations! you're among the majority!

That being said, could any character argue that Shadows aren't evil? Sure! Should the majority of the people that character meets share that belief? Definitely not. DOES the majority of people that character meets share this belief? Sadly, the majority are adventurers and players of adventurers like to justify everything so they can play whatever/however they want. But, Like it or not, Arelith -as- a setting brings with it things that are more black and white and much less grey. Most "Grey" areas are our own 21st-century modern bias being brought into the game as baggage.

Good? Evil? That's much more 2nd-tier descriptions. You should ask yourself: "Are shadows monsters?" and "Are monsters evil?" (not talking about those unicorn monsters that are 1 in 10,000,000... talking about monsters in general.)

So, if shadows are monsters and monsters are evil.. then shadows ARE evil.

This is the sort of black and white thinking that 99.9% of people in the world of the setting that Arelith takes place in hold to be true.

Adventurers... well they fall into the 0.1% category quite often. And even though you may ONLY encounter adventurers during any given day playing Arelith... remember that adventurers are just a small % of the population of people and the limitations of the game engine prevents us from seeing what Cordor SHOULD look like... a bustling port of a thousand (mostly illiterate, highly superstitious, poorly educated) people milling its street on any given day.

--attitude--

this is the important takeaway. What is the attitude towards shadows? Generally speaking, the attitude of the common folk is that shadows are evil. And although anyone is free to have any character believe ANYTHING they want, they do a disservice to the campaign if they try to actively convince others differently... WITHOUT the clear expectation that the character is going against common belief structure that is in place simply because Arelith as a story is set in a fantasy-D&D style setting.


---
apologies: I am taking a paper-writing analysis class on story and myth this fall...I think it is starting to creep into my downtime life... gaaah!!!!

[DM Sollers]

Hello.

Working strictly through mechanics, Forgotten Realms lore, and the lore set by the players, there are two types:

1.) The undead shadow (incorporeal undead)
2.) The outsider shadow (outsider native to Shadow Plane)

The first is the typical shadow which is incorporeal undead, often found hiding in dark places such as crypts or cursed lands. The second is the shadow creature, an outsider native to the Shadow Plane, and all the variants related to that template. Shadow creatures do lean towards evil, but they are not "always evil"- only "usually".

The typical person will probably not be able to tell which is which right off the bat. There are ways in-game to find out through trial and error.

[msterswrdsmn]

For both arelith and DnD Forgotten realms lore, Shadows from -shadowdancers- are not inherently evil.

They are considered undead by Forgotten Realms lore, FR Lore is used more as a guideline than a final say for Arelith. Mechanically, shadows on Arelith aren't undead (to my knolwedge). You can scream and jump up and down and wave torches all you want IG, but things that mechanically affect undead won't affect shadows, so your arguement IG won't have any real weight to it.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClass ... dancer.htm

Summon Shadow (Su)

At 3rd level, a shadowdancer can summon a shadow, an undead shade. Unlike a normal shadow, this shadow’s alignment matches that of the shadowdancer, and the creature cannot create spawn. The summoned shadow cannot be turned, rebuked, or commanded by any third party. This shadow serves as a companion to the shadowdancer and can communicate intelligibly with the shadowdancer. Every third level gained by the shadowdancer adds +2 HD (and the requisite base attack and base save bonus increases) to her shadow companion.

If a shadow companion is destroyed, or the shadowdancer chooses to dismiss it, the shadowdancer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude save. If the saving throw fails, the shadowdancer loses 200 experience points per shadowdancer level. A successful saving throw reduces the loss by half, to 100 XP per prestige class level. The shadowdancer’s XP total can never go below 0 as the result of a shadow’s dismissal or destruction. A destroyed or dismissed shadow companion cannot be replaced for 30 days.

[DM Sollers]

I can confirm that some shadows in Arelith are undead. Examining creatures shows their race the same way examining players shows race, so have fun searching and finding out which ones are what.

[Diilicious]

honestly the setting of dungeons and dragons really doesnt interest me at all.

#Opinion

Im not really sure where this was going, I dont like the fantasy setting for its unbelievable number of inconsistancies, but while im playing i will still attempt to respect it. the point of this thread was so that despite what I like/dislike I can understand how this community sees this, as i know arelith is not 1:1 of D&D.

And i basically agreed with you on all points you raised, hence this thread.

I can confirm that some shadows in Arelith are undead. Examining creatures shows their race the same way examining players shows race, so have fun searching and finding out which ones are what.

the farmland shadows are undead, those are the only ones i have found that count.

[Azaria]

Shadows as in the creatures from the plane of shadows are evil. In PnP they are Undead, not Outsiders since they come from the plane of Shadows which is an Inner plane and Outsiders all come from the Outer Planes.


Shadows as summoned by the shadow conjuration spells are Illusions. In PnP they would presumably match the alignment of whatever creature you choose to make the illusion of, or would have no alignment since they are not actually real. In Arelith, I would assume TN. Either way the creation of a shadow illusion is not an evil act, nor is it likely that anyone would confuse them for an evil being.

Shadows as summoned by the Shadowdancer class.... well on Arelith, they are shadowy versions of the caster and they lack any of the strength draining abilities of Shadows (The planar creatures) so I would assume that they are Shadow Illusions much like the Shadow Conjuration spells create, just without any colour components to the illusion. As such, not evil. The fact that they look all shadowy, and thus not unlike the Shadow creatures that live on the plane of shadow however, I can easly see some people with particularly low Lore mistaking them for the undead monsters.

And lets not forget, Shadowdancers can be good aligned, and that would not work with a class that summons evil critters.

Cripple strike could count as energy draining together with regen

[StrykerMontgomery]

Shadow dancers are the only non undead shadows i am aware of. Its really hard to see shadowplane shadows not as undead. Their very essence is negative energy, the life force of all undead. Positive healing hurts and negative heals, check; immune to crits, check. Can't be raised back to life once they are "dead dead" (also an outsider thing), check. Most of their kind, with few weird lore exceptions, are evil, check.

[The Kriv]

Shadow dancers are the only non undead shadows i am aware of.

Shadow Dancers aren't shadows, themselves. They've just mastered the art of harnessing shadow-magic through an innate process instead of an arcane one. They only draw upon the power of Shadows... and they're very very good at it.

[StrykerMontgomery]

Shadow dancers are the only non undead shadows i am aware of.

Shadow Dancers aren't shadows, themselves. They've just mastered the art of harnessing shadow-magic through an innate process instead of an arcane one. They only draw upon the power of Shadows... and they're very very good at it.

I mean to say shadow dancer's shadows.

[The Kriv]

Shadow dancers are the only non undead shadows i am aware of.

Shadow Dancers aren't shadows, themselves. They've just mastered the art of harnessing shadow-magic through an innate process instead of an arcane one. They only draw upon the power of Shadows... and they're very very good at it.

I mean to say shadow dancer's shadows.

Phew! I was gonna say.... cuz Shadow DANCERS are just creepy people who hang around in shadows and occasionally jump out and say, "Boo!" ...and sometimes stab you.