Any specific ruling on the death area?

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Manabi
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Any specific ruling on the death area?

Post by Manabi » Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:27 pm

Hey, I've always heard that characters can't remember Kelemvor's wall, the portal back to the prime, and so on. Looking for some clarification on this that's not opinion based.

Edit: If there's something in lore where characters raised from death cannot recall their experience, that's fine too. Just let me know what book it's in so I can read the specifics.
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Re: Any specific ruling on the death area?

Post by Wytchee » Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:42 pm

It used to be strictly enforced that characters did not remember what occurred in the Fugue. Now, things seem far more relaxed. I see a lot of people roleplaying that they were somewhere "cold and dark" but remaining vague about it.
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Re: Any specific ruling on the death area?

Post by Nitro » Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:28 pm

There used to be a rule that anything that happened in the fugure could not be remembered, however that was revoked when it was reworked into the labyrinth of today:
In contrast to previous ruling and DnD lore, a character is free to remember any and all details of their death, and even the events that may occur in the Fugue Plane.

However, playing the post-raise amnesia is perfectly acceptable, and even encouraged.

That said, some players like to employ various "personal rules" on how much their characters remember. For example a "six minute rule", saying that due to the trauma of being killed, they can't remember anything for the six minutes prior to dying (or one in game hour). This is purely up to each player's judgment and neither expected nor required!

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Re: Any specific ruling on the death area?

Post by The Kriv » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:50 pm

IIRC from when the Kevlemore Wall Labyrinth was introduced, these were the general results of many a discussion of the exact question posed by the OP. -Subject to official DM confirmation/correction, of course, this is how I remember those discussions:

Indeed, a trip to Kelvemore's wall is an experience that your character should be able to retain memories of. To the degree of detail of those memories is up to the individual player.

Interactions with other characters you may encounter while in the labyrinth should also be treated as IC encounters, for RP purpose.
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Re: Any specific ruling on the death area?

Post by TimeAdept » Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:52 pm

No it shouldnt because being able to wake up and talk about this awesome trip you had to the fugue and talking with some Drow is incredibly immersion breaking and, to put it bluntly, stupid. It destroys what little semblance of seriousness-in-death we have.

Arelith's attitude re: memory of death continues to be one of the strangest things to me. By the rules I am completely allowed to die, respawn, and tell everyone all about Jim The Assassin who just killed me to take over Cordor, and completely blow his coverbecause I beat a diguise check in the 4 seconds it took for him to kill me.

That's ridiculous.

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Re: Any specific ruling on the death area?

Post by Bryce Silver-Wind » Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:59 pm

Well part of telling a good story, is balancing what is good for a story, is blowing Jim the assassins cover good for the story? Or is it just an I want to win mentality, or, perhaps you could play it out as shadowy memories, a man approached you....you think he has a beard, his blade was....was a dagger? but the rest is all hazy, the only other thing you remember, is pain, and coldness, before waking up at res point.

OR

In the very real event that the murder would have a massive impact on your character...(Sorry Vance, using you cause your just too awesome), Vance captures, brutally tortures a paladin for days, impacting his life in a strong way, then slowly kills him. Yeah...I would want my PC to remember that, because it would have a very meaningful impact on my story, how I approach Vance in the future and how our stories might play out.

There is a time and a place for both, and I am glad I get to choose the equalizer on how it effects my character and my story.

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Re: Any specific ruling on the death area?

Post by PinataPlethora » Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:05 pm

TimeAdept wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:52 pm
No it shouldnt because being able to wake up and talk about this awesome trip you had to the fugue and talking with some Drow is incredibly immersion breaking and, to put it bluntly, stupid. It destroys what little semblance of seriousness-in-death we have.

Arelith's attitude re: memory of death continues to be one of the strangest things to me. By the rules I am completely allowed to die, respawn, and tell everyone all about Jim The Assassin who just killed me to take over Cordor, and completely blow his coverbecause I beat a diguise check in the 4 seconds it took for him to kill me.

That's ridiculous.
Some of the rule changes that we've seen in recent years have been made, because it wasn't practical to enforce them. In the case of this one, no, you are no longer strictly required to forget what happened when you died, however the staff (at least the last time I saw it come up) has made it clear that your handling of death will have an effect on your RPR.

So, people can blurt things out, because we don't have Big Brother monitoring every single word we say and clapping mouths shut when the wrong thing comes out, but if a pattern of immersion breaking behavior emerges, consequences may follow.

On the player end, though, you are welcome to have your characters disbelieve the rantings of someone just returned from death. After all, that's a traumatic and disorienting experience, and any memory of those events would surely be confused and clouded by emotion.

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Re: Any specific ruling on the death area?

Post by TimeAdept » Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:14 pm

Right up until I walk up to Jim the Assassin disguised in Cordor, break his disguise, and out him, destroying months of careful cover and disguise work because he dared to kill me and I dared to follow the rules.

Our hypothetical me doesn't play alts much, so they don't really care about their RPR - they're following the rules of the server as they're set out, and interacting back with the world that's interacted with them. But that's not a great hypothetical: Most people care about their RPR, and so would do things to increase their RPR. However, for the sake of bringing this conversation about....

If the DMs have set forth that following the rules of the server is something that will get thier RPR docked, then the priorities of the server are in conflict. Following the rules of the server should set a player up with a foundation that encourages their improvement, and thus, an increase in their RPR. Right now, the rule regarding death, and the following response from DMs in how they treat players for following the rules about death, creates a false expectation, and a NPE ["Negative Player Experience] result: I did what the DMs/server/devs have asked regarding death, and set forth for everyone to follow, but I'm being punished for it by lowering my RPR.

I'm not 'raging against the machine' or demanding change, just that the talking heads in the sky should consider what it means to have server rules that ask for a different result than the 'rules' (quote-y fingers for vagueness, not sarcasm) that govern RPR, which here seem to go against what DMs are expected to enforce.

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Re: Any specific ruling on the death area?

Post by Bryce Silver-Wind » Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:18 pm

[/quote]
Some of the rule changes that we've seen in recent years have been made, because it wasn't practical to enforce them. In the case of this one, no, you are no longer strictly required to forget what happened when you died, however the staff (at least the last time I saw it come up) has made it clear that your handling of death will have an effect on your RPR.

So, people can blurt things out, because we don't have Big Brother monitoring every single word we say and clapping mouths shut when the wrong thing comes out, but if a pattern of immersion breaking behavior emerges, consequences may follow.

On the player end, though, you are welcome to have your characters disbelieve the rantings of someone just returned from death. After all, that's a traumatic and disorienting experience, and any memory of those events would surely be confused and clouded by emotion.
[/quote]

^^^ This entirely, and if you feel someone is outright breaking immersion, please speak to the nearest DM. They are more then happy to review it and if they feel the person is literally damaging the immersion of the server, they will gladly pull them aside and chat with them. Please remember patience with players that may not be as integrated as you are in how the server works, how RP works, and how it effects their RP. We do however have a great DM team that is able and ready to assist anytime and anywhere so long as they are able.

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Re: Any specific ruling on the death area?

Post by PinataPlethora » Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:38 pm

TimeAdept wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:14 pm
I'm not 'raging against the machine' or demanding change, just that the talking heads in the sky should consider what it means to have server rules that ask for a different result than the 'rules' (quote-y fingers for vagueness, not sarcasm) that govern RPR, which here seem to go against what DMs are expected to enforce.
The rules will never be exact. They will never be perfect. They will never be all-encompassing. Most of all, they will never, ever satisfy you unless you change your personal perspective regarding their purpose. That's why we have DMs, and Devs above them. There is simply too much freedom in this game world to have a completely comprehensive rule set, so there will always be judgement calls.

From a certain perspective, however, your example is a violation of the Be Nice rule, so it would be perfectly fine for Jim to report you and let the staff decide whether you were acting out of spite, or to push forward a story. Contrary to your example, though, I find it extremely difficult to believe that the staff would lower your RPR for a first offense. They aren't the Gestapo. I've talked to plenty of them. They'll give guidance and advice, send you on your way, and only smite you with righteous fury if you go around causing the same problems.

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Re: Any specific ruling on the death area?

Post by Nitro » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:12 pm

TimeAdept wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:14 pm
If the DMs have set forth that following the rules of the server is something that will get thier RPR docked, then the priorities of the server are in conflict. Following the rules of the server should set a player up with a foundation that encourages their improvement, and thus, an increase in their RPR. Right now, the rule regarding death, and the following response from DMs in how they treat players for following the rules about death, creates a false expectation, and a NPE ["Negative Player Experience] result: I did what the DMs/server/devs have asked regarding death, and set forth for everyone to follow, but I'm being punished for it by lowering my RPR.

I'm not 'raging against the machine' or demanding change, just that the talking heads in the sky should consider what it means to have server rules that ask for a different result than the 'rules' (quote-y fingers for vagueness, not sarcasm) that govern RPR, which here seem to go against what DMs are expected to enforce.
Rules are one thing, RPR is another.
Following the rules is a prerequisite of being allowed to play on the server.
RPR is a bonus you get for being good at roleplaying collaboratively.

Take note in how these two are completely different things. A person can follow the rules entirely, but have 10RPR because they don't want/care/know how to roleplay in a consistent manner that includes other people. So in our example with death here, it's entirely within the rules to go and out jimbob the assassin straight away, but it's not a thing you should do if you're after that higher RPR because it's a 'I win' move rather than a collaborative RP move.

If RPR standards were enforced by rules, then we'd see a lot of players being banned for not having a good enough quality to their RP, which would be rather silly.

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Manabi
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Re: Any specific ruling on the death area?

Post by Manabi » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:16 pm

Nitro wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:28 pm
There used to be a rule that anything that happened in the fugure could not be remembered, however that was revoked when it was reworked into the labyrinth of today:
In contrast to previous ruling and DnD lore, a character is free to remember any and all details of their death, and even the events that may occur in the Fugue Plane.

However, playing the post-raise amnesia is perfectly acceptable, and even encouraged.

That said, some players like to employ various "personal rules" on how much their characters remember. For example a "six minute rule", saying that due to the trauma of being killed, they can't remember anything for the six minutes prior to dying (or one in game hour). This is purely up to each player's judgment and neither expected nor required!

Any idea what kind of lore that was mentioned here?


By the way people, I'm not talking about prior to death thing with getting beat in the head by an ogre and then shouting his name around Andunor. Talking about the death area itself.
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Re: Any specific ruling on the death area?

Post by Nitro » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:27 pm

Dunno about the lore, this is all our wiki states on it:
Once character has died, dead character's spirit will be transported to a foggy area known as Fugue Plane, outside the walls of the city of Kelemvor, where they are able to interact with the spirits of other dead Player characters (if there are any). A character cannot engage in PvP or cast magic while in the Death Area.

Please note that Fugue is an IC area, and all the rules still apply.
http://wiki.arelith.com/Death

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Re: Any specific ruling on the death area?

Post by The GrumpyCat » Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:12 pm

When the latest death changes came in (introducing a new death area, and death-debuffs) the fugue rules were changed so that someone who died and went to the fugue was free to remember all that occured there, if they wanted.

However, if you don't want to roleplay remembering what happened there - that's fine too. That's a matter of personal choice.
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Re: Any specific ruling on the death area?

Post by TimeAdept » Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:17 am

DM GrumpyCat wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:12 pm
When the latest death changes came in (introducing a new death area, and death-debuffs) the fugue rules were changed so that someone who died and went to the fugue was free to remember all that occured there, if they wanted.

However, if you don't want to roleplay remembering what happened there - that's fine too. That's a matter of personal choice.
Would you lower someone's RPR if they consistently RP'ed remembering, with crystal clarity, their death, how it happened, and their time in the fugue if they met people?

Would you deny someone a raise to their RPR for the same reason?

The answer to this should determine the fate of the death rule, and I encourage the DMs and Devs to collaboratively consider this very seriously, because it affects a lot of RP around death, and the culture you want to create.
Rules are one thing, RPR is another.
This should never be true. Following the rules of the server should not see someone punished - and let's not mince words, lowering of RPR, and the staunch refusal to raise RPR, are, to most of the server, a severe punishment. It's a black mark on you personally.

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Re: Any specific ruling on the death area?

Post by Bryce Silver-Wind » Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:21 am

As someone that has in the past had my RPR lowered for behaving poorly, I can vouch that this isn't something the DMs do very lightly, you have to actually be acting in a way thats a massive detriment to the server and had repeated warnings to stop. They aren't just gonna throw you under the cart with "Your a bad RPer and don't deserve your 20 RPR!, back to 10 you go!" Also, if you do get it lowered, the team spends a bit more time watching to see if you improve so they can put you back up. RPR is not the be all end all of RP. Sure it sucks to have it lowered, but the team is reasonable.

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Re: Any specific ruling on the death area?

Post by PinataPlethora » Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:23 am

TimeAdept wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:17 am
Would you lower someone's RPR if they consistently RP'ed remembering, with crystal clarity, their death, how it happened, and their time in the fugue if they met people?

Would you deny someone a raise to their RPR for the same reason?
You're still looking at it from the wrong perspective. (Intentionally, in an attempt to prove your point.) It's not a question of whether, but of why. The judgement is going to be based on what you do with the information gained in those moments, not whether you choose to retain it.

As in your example, you could throw it into someone's face for the sole purpose of ruining their day out of spite, and the alarmist response to this would be to make a rule against remembering. However, someone with greater finesse could easily use that knowledge to create more RP, so having a hard and fast rule against it would stifle that opportunity.

Having the rule will not stop the turds from using that information negatively. It will stop the good RPers from taking the opportunity to create. In this instance, I believe it's much better for the community that we take the risk of allowing that chance. I can count on one hand the times I've personally witnessed the new ruling abused in the way you suggested.

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Re: Any specific ruling on the death area?

Post by Bashagain » Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:10 pm

One of the reasons death area memory was not allowed long ago was to prevent corpse retrieval navigation.

For example:
“Go to Arelith Forest North by the River bend, then go West a bit. There you’ll find my corpse. I know we’re both dead, but if you are revived, find me and raise me.”

I’m of the mind that although The Wall is IC, no “material information” should be retained after revival.
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Re: Any specific ruling on the death area?

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:07 pm

I like knowing that it's IC, I'm going to start RPing remembering being in a cold, dark, place. Trying to run, trying to escape the labyrinth, but much like a dream it feels like he's underwater and cannot run. Treat the experience as being like a nightmare. Someone said your RPR will suffer if you RP remembering what goes on there, but I imagine that's for meta behaviour and not actual character developmental things.

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Re: Any specific ruling on the death area?

Post by Bryce Silver-Wind » Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:13 pm

Its for people that use it to be massively detrimental to the server. Literally trying to weaponize it to hurt players, which isn't cool to begin with.

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Re: Any specific ruling on the death area?

Post by naturaly » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:07 pm

Oh no, I treat it as OOC area like entry. Oops.

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Re: Any specific ruling on the death area?

Post by triaddraykin » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:38 pm

Specific ruling is here.
Irongron wrote:DEATH

So after over a decade of sharing his bad news with our characters, we say goodbye to the Soul Guardian...

- New Death area

This is strictly an in-character area, and one which your characters are perflectly entitled to remember.
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