A question about population in the island

You have questions? We may have answers.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs

Post Reply
Trauson
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:47 am
Location: London
Contact:

A question about population in the island

Post by Trauson » Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:27 am

I think i never found the answer for this topic before and i pretty much find it interesting. I would like to ask, which is the actual population of the island and per settlement?

Because we should assume that we are not the only ones living here neither the npcs. There must be your average people around there who are morelike farmers , artisans and entertainers , also typical low ranking goverment officers and such.

User avatar
Baron Saturday
Posts: 2364
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:34 am

Re: A question about population in the island

Post by Baron Saturday » Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:01 am

Totally unofficially, and using the FR wiki classifications for reference, I've generally ranged Arelith's cities like so:

Andunor: Small City
Cordor: Large Town/Small City
Brogendenstein: Large Town
Bendir Dale: Small Town
Myon: Small Town
Guldorand: Village/Small Town
Sibayad: Village
Skal: Hamlet
Greyhammer: Hamlet
Sencliff: Hamlet
Halfbreed Camp: Thorp/Hamlet? Don't have a lot of info on this one.
Mayfield's Junction: Thorp
Crow's Nest: Thorp
Great Grotto: Never been, but I'd estimate it at hamlet-sized?

Wharftown, in it's day, was probably also a Village/Small Town. Assuming I'm not forgetting anywhere, that puts Arelith's population in the 22k range. I'm sure others have their own estimations that are wildly different from my own.
Rolled: Helene d'Arque, Sara Lyonall
Shelved: Kels Vetian, Cin ys'Andalis, Saul Haidt
Playing: Oshe Jordain

Face
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:52 pm

Re: A question about population in the island

Post by Face » Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:09 pm

Brogendenstein is a sprawling metropolis, don't let anyone tell you otherwise!

Trauson
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:47 am
Location: London
Contact:

Re: A question about population in the island

Post by Trauson » Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:47 pm

22k actually is a lot of people for a small island. So if we say that 1/4 is armed forces... that would mean that there would be around 5k soldiers in all the island

User avatar
Baron Saturday
Posts: 2364
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:34 am

Re: A question about population in the island

Post by Baron Saturday » Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:36 pm

1/4th seems a bit high. Also keep in mind that Sibayad and Skal aren't on Arelith, and Andunor (which is the largest city and is likely home to almost half the population) is in the UD.

I would guess more like 1/20th to 1/10th in the armed forces, so all totalled, 1000-2000, split roughly evenly between surface and UD. It's also not clear if Arelith settlements have standing armies beyond their normal peacekeeping forces, or if the citizenry is drafted in times of open war. This might well differ from settlement to settlement!
Rolled: Helene d'Arque, Sara Lyonall
Shelved: Kels Vetian, Cin ys'Andalis, Saul Haidt
Playing: Oshe Jordain

User avatar
One Two Three Five
Posts: 1139
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:09 am

Re: A question about population in the island

Post by One Two Three Five » Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:55 pm

I'm pretty sure Cordor has an army? Which, given the Wharftown thing, seems to be backed by Amn.
The devil does not need any more advocates
Clerics are just socially acceptable warlocks.

User avatar
The GrumpyCat
Dungeon Master
Dungeon Master
Posts: 6566
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:47 pm

Re: A question about population in the island

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:40 pm

Disclaimer: This is something I think only really Irongron, or some of the other Devs can properly answer. I'll give some indications on what I think, based on what they've said on the past - but please don't take it as gospel.

I would say for the most part that Baron Saterday's estimation is approximatly correct. I think there may be a few things that should be slightly sized up, or slightly sized down, but it's probably pretty close to the mark.

The two major MILLITARY powers on the isle are Cordor and Brogendenstein, which are of about equel might. With Amn backing it up, Cordor would probably be the more powerful... but that depends on Amn's coperation, and it's entirely likely that Brogendenstein might have some other allies too, on isle or off.

Unsure where Andunor would fit, millitary wise, but I'd guess that if (big IF!) they could unify, they could probably challenge either Cordor or Brogendenstein. However such an event is extremely unlikely. And even if they did unify, the presence of the sun would prove a bane to most long term occupation plans.

Speaking PERSONALLY (and I do NOT have any official word backing me up here) I'd say Cordor is probably the largest settlment on the isle. Followed closely by Brogendenstein. The reason for the lack of millitary disparity is simply that a) Brogendenstein is far more defensable than Cordor and b) Brogendenstein probably has more combat effective warriors per head, and better weapons/armour than Cordor.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

TimeAdept
Posts: 1336
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:02 am

Re: A question about population in the island

Post by TimeAdept » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:20 pm

My sincerest advice to the DMs and Devs: don't actually put numbers to these things, it will bite you in the Snuggybear in the long run.

User avatar
Memelord
Posts: 329
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:05 pm
Location: New Yawk

Re: A question about population in the island

Post by Memelord » Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:02 am

Baron Saturday wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:01 am
Totally unofficially, and using the FR wiki classifications for reference, I've generally ranged Arelith's cities like so:

Andunor: Small City
Cordor: Large Town/Small City
Brogendenstein: Large Town
Bendir Dale: Small Town
Myon: Small Town
Guldorand: Village/Small Town
Sibayad: Village
Skal: Hamlet
Greyhammer: Hamlet
Sencliff: Hamlet
Halfbreed Camp: Thorp/Hamlet? Don't have a lot of info on this one.
Mayfield's Junction: Thorp
Crow's Nest: Thorp
Great Grotto: Never been, but I'd estimate it at hamlet-sized?

Wharftown, in it's day, was probably also a Village/Small Town. Assuming I'm not forgetting anywhere, that puts Arelith's population in the 22k range. I'm sure others have their own estimations that are wildly different from my own.

I'd put it more along the lines of:

Andunor: Small City (population bolstered heavily by slaves, goblins and kobolds)
Cordor: Small City
Brogendenstein: Village (possibly high end?)
Bendir Dale: Hamlet (it's a small fort and an attached thorp, after all)
Myon: Hamlet (high end)/Village (low end)
Guldorand: Hamlet (high end; it's an ailing logging camp that lacks a significant economic reason to survive anymore)
Sibayad: Hamlet (low end)
Skal: Hamlet (low end)
Greyhammer: thorp - population included in Bendir's estimate
Sencliff: Haven't been there in awhile, hard to say - hamlet?
Halfbreed Camp/Mayfields/Crow's Nest/Great Grotto: all thorps

When it comes to Brogendenstein, it's important to remember that some of the most famous & powerful dwarven strongholds are still only Large Towns - Brog is nice, but it's certainly no Mithril Hall. A similar thing goes for Myon - it's not a major elven population center, it was just established as a stopover point for the Retreat/Return. The primary theme of these two races, more importantly, is "empires in eclipse." Dwarves and elves might still have individually mighty kingdoms, they might still produce some of the finest pieces of craftsmanship and have access to magics that other races marvel at, but they lack the sheer weight of numbers and determination that is allowing other races to excel - this is what gives these races flavor in the setting, and makes them interesting.

Other than Andunor, which is basically Skullport and is home to sprawling slums full of slaves/superfecund races like gobbos and kobolds, Cordor is really the only settlement on the island that has the economy to support a population of City-size (being the island's only international trading port, other than the small smuggler ports of Sencliff, the Crow's Nest, and Sibayad), as well as the racial demographics (humans make a lot of babies) and perhaps most importantly the slums needed to pack that many people in so small a space.

The setting currently aims to "represent" early Renaissance Europe (a real-world island nation, England, only had a population density of around 70 people per square mile in the early Renaissance) - Arelith is a fairly good fit for this, considering that there have been at least 7 major plagues in the last century, 3 of which have occurred within the last 40-50 or so years. Coupled with the destruction of Wharftown, semi-regular Underdarker raids against the island's interior, the failing economy of places like Guldorand, gov't collapse/coup d'etats followed by civil unrest in Cordor, etc. - it's very likely that the overall population of Arelith (in terms of commoners) is currently shrinking, or remaining stable at best.

Trauson
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:47 am
Location: London
Contact:

Re: A question about population in the island

Post by Trauson » Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:45 am

Thanks to Grumpy and everyone for their answers. But yeah its morelike i tought , i wanted to be generous whit the amount of armed forces since they could be drafted in. As you can say. So more or less the only cities that could sustain and could call for reinforcements from outside forces would be Brog and Cordor , whit the first one as the mayor power in militaristic solo terms, as Cordor would try to call its ally Amn into military action that might take time , would obliterate any resistance against it. In the long term. Ok pretty much i think these answers satisfy me, But yeahmore or less i think a problematic shrinking population fits perfectly for the setting as more or less the island remains pretty wild on its core , whit orcs sprawling everyone , creatures on their swamps and a lot of brigands. It would be nice that a update presents an increase of size of the settlements or another small island close to Arelith.

About Andunor, yeah morelikely what i tought too , since Underdark its characteristic to never have banded together for real to present a direct inminent threat , morelike "Something that is always there" But still in case of mayor conflict in the surface they could face and cause real trouble if one of the mayor powers in the island decides to go against the other.

It would be nice that for example , closest cities to Arelith like Waterdeep or Neverwinter would like to step in and since the militaristic presence of Amn in the area would question Cordor´s involvement whit it as its closer to them.

User avatar
flower
Posts: 1287
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:16 am

Re: A question about population in the island

Post by flower » Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:10 am

I am pretty certain in time of war Brogenstein citizens would be drafted into army, like Mithril Halls did in their war against Menzoberranzar.

And so far, unless gameplay changes that, Amn is the only ally to Cordor. If they fought others on island, the things would become dire very quickly for them. And dwarves could call on other empires to send their expedition forces (Mithril Halls…) too. Unlike Amn and Cordor dwarven empires and possible elven if it came down to that would not be motivated by money and power but with stubborn fight for their kin, getting edge in both, morale and motivation to push for victory.

Edit: Amnd and Cordor have high percentage of non humans in military and administration, and if war was seen as unjust, i doubt most would stay loyal.

User avatar
Marsi
Posts: 549
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 11:34 am

Re: A question about population in the island

Post by Marsi » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:49 am

TimeAdept wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:20 pm
My sincerest advice to the DMs and Devs: don't actually put numbers to these things, it will bite you in the Snuggybear in the long run.
This.

It's fuel for determinists who wail that "x shouldn't be able to do this, or challenge so and so, because they're only statistically a y". It's silly and not really in line with Arelith's player sandbox philosophy. And trying to determine which city could beat the other based on out-of-game, fiat alliances and circumstances has always reminded me of schoolyard "oh yeah? Well Goku could totally beat up Aragorn!!".

Why should the great bell of Beaulieu toll when the shadows were neither short nor long?


Bryce Silver-Wind
Posts: 104
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:56 pm

Re: A question about population in the island

Post by Bryce Silver-Wind » Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:06 am

Sadly, this is already a problem, when the IC response to this is...."Yeah if they prove too much a problem, Amn will be glad to remind them what happened to Wharftown"...yeah, this is a real IG threat...

User avatar
The GrumpyCat
Dungeon Master
Dungeon Master
Posts: 6566
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:47 pm

Re: A question about population in the island

Post by The GrumpyCat » Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:12 pm

Whilst I think it's fine to have a 'rough' idea of settlment sizes, I very much doubt we'll put any actual defintiive numbers on anything. Besides, numbers shift and change according the situations! And we can never really 'represent' the numbers anyway.
Plus it would remove any 'wriggle room' for story telling.
So yeah, rough ideas are fine, exact numbers are never going to happen.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

Post Reply