That sneak attack adjustment

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Jagel
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That sneak attack adjustment

Post by Jagel » Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:47 pm

Sneak attacks against enemies with uncanny dodge now require a number of lvls above the dodger to be able to land sneaks.

How does this work for:

- sneak attacks granted via the shadowdancer's summon?
- sneak attack from items like that light crossbow?
- sneak attacks granted via shapechanging (certain shifter shapes, green dragon shape)?

Shadowy Reality
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Re: That sneak attack adjustment

Post by Shadowy Reality » Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 pm

Is it directly related to Sneak Attack or are you just not flanking?

If it is the latter then the source of the Sneak Attack does not matter.

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Jagel
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Re: That sneak attack adjustment

Post by Jagel » Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:08 pm

I’m just trying to understand the implications of the update/nerf.

Nitro
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Re: That sneak attack adjustment

Post by Nitro » Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:31 pm

Shadowy Reality wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 pm
Is it directly related to Sneak Attack or are you just not flanking?

If it is the latter then the source of the Sneak Attack does not matter.
You can flank all you want now and won't be able to land a sneak attack if your rogue level is lower than their class(?) level of the class that gets Uncanny dodge. Only flatfooted characters with UD or ones with lower level than the rogue will get sneak attacks in on them from flanking.

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Jagel
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Re: That sneak attack adjustment

Post by Jagel » Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:48 pm

So any UD foe will be immune to flanking SA from a weapon with SA ?

Sab1
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Re: That sneak attack adjustment

Post by Sab1 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:38 pm

So does this mean a lvl 30 rogue is immune to sneaks from flanking unless flatfooted?

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Baron Saturday
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Re: That sneak attack adjustment

Post by Baron Saturday » Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:42 pm

Worth noting that it's Uncanny Dodge 2 which triggers the sneak immunity from lower-level sneak attackers, so you need at least 5 barbarian, 6 rogue, 5 shadowdancer, or 5 assassin. Additionally, the sneak immunity seems to extend 3 levels above your combined barb/rogue/SD/sin level, so if I'm understanding correctly, a level 27 rogue is sneak immune when not flat-footed.

This all needs testing, though.
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Peppermint
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Re: That sneak attack adjustment

Post by Peppermint » Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:12 am

The answer is that it doesn't really work.

Each feat checks a range, but Beamdog apparently overlooked the fact that feats are replaced on level up.

So you get lovely stuff like being able to sneak attack a guy with Uncanny Dodge IV, but if he has Uncanny Dodge II, he's completely impervious.

Which just leads me to believe that like most new additions to the game, none of it's been tested. Ever. *shrug*

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Re: That sneak attack adjustment

Post by Sab1 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:16 am

This is a beamdog thing?

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Re: That sneak attack adjustment

Post by Madukthedoppelganger » Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:52 am

Peppermint wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:12 am
The answer is that it doesn't really work.

Each feat checks a range, but Beamdog apparently overlooked the fact that feats are replaced on level up.

So you get lovely stuff like being able to sneak attack a guy with Uncanny Dodge IV, but if he has Uncanny Dodge II, he's completely impervious.

Which just leads me to believe that like most new additions to the game, none of it's been tested. Ever. *shrug*
I tested this just now with a Barbarian and all the Uncanny Dodge feats beginning from II protect against flanking Sneak Attacks from same-level rogues.

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Re: That sneak attack adjustment

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:52 am

Sab1 wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:16 am
This is a beamdog thing?
No, this is actually a PnP thing and how the game is supposed to work (if it's working correctly, that is).

Uncanny Dodge is actually an incredibly useful thing, normally.

In fact, it's such a good and often over-looked ability that WotC decided to dedicate a section in an article about sneak attacks solely to its existence and what overcomes it.
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Jagel
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Re: That sneak attack adjustment

Post by Jagel » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:11 am

And this is hardcoded?

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Re: That sneak attack adjustment

Post by Nitro » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:40 am

I hope not. Another nerf is about the last thing rogues and assassins need.

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Peppermint
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Re: That sneak attack adjustment

Post by Peppermint » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:52 am

It's hardcoded*. Yeah. Super weird addition. Balancing adjustments in EE have been weird.

(* Though we could just remove the uncanny dodge feats beyond a certain level.)

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Jagel
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Re: That sneak attack adjustment

Post by Jagel » Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:29 pm

Why oh why are they putting in more hardcoded stuff? One of the draws of getting support for the game again was that it would finally be possible to get rid of some of the weird hardcoded stuff. The game is going to thrive if modders and pw-builders get their hands on all the tools they need, it’s going to be super frustrating if arbitrary changes to mechanics are just pushed in with no opt out.

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Re: That sneak attack adjustment

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:58 am

Pardon the ignorance, where is this discussed on the Beamdog's forums? I'm trying to find the thread of updates/announcements (if there is one?).
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Opustus
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Re: That sneak attack adjustment

Post by Opustus » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:31 am

So much for the only one thing DwD had going for them. I don't think Uncanny dodge beyond the first is important at all (+reflex v traps?), so removing them shouldn't affect the classes, really. Are there mobs that need tweaking thanks to Beamdog's atrocities?
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Re: That sneak attack adjustment

Post by Seekeepeek » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:34 am

i guess Beamdog is made of DnD fanatics rather then nwn fanatics. lol
i wouldn't be surprised if they made more changes to support DnD
in those live streams videos Trent Oster kept saying he was going to "fix" immunities. i wonder if this is one of those cases.

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Jagel
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Re: That sneak attack adjustment

Post by Jagel » Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:32 pm

Ah. So next we will see discipline and parry go?

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Re: That sneak attack adjustment

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:40 pm

Jagel wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:32 pm
Ah. So next we will see discipline and parry go?
You have no idea how happy this would make me. I don't expect you to agree, but I sit in a camp that firmly believes D&D's base system for handling trip/grappling attempts is vastly superior to the garbage that is discipline. High Strength/Dex characters with full BAB do best, and classes with weaker BAB's and other stat dependencies don't do as well...

But none of them does as badly as a level 30 character with no discipline.

And I feel the exact same way about parrying and the parry skill. It's supposed to work off of your attack bonus, and it would be better if it did.
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Jagel
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Re: That sneak attack adjustment

Post by Jagel » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:00 pm

I don’t have a particularly strong opinion on either other than it is a bit .. rash to make such fundamental changes to the game’s mechanics based on a game system that is meant to be played as a table top game.

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Re: That sneak attack adjustment

Post by yellowcateyes » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:34 pm

The implementation appears to be buggy.

The stock level 15 Rogue in the vault, for example, can flank attack a level 30 character with Uncanny Dodge I or Uncanny Dodge VI, but is unable to flank sneak a level 30 character with Uncanny Dodge II. A stock level 1 Rogue cannot flank sneak a Level 30 character with either Uncanny Dodge I or II, but can successfully flank sneak a character with Uncanny Dodge III or above.

This implementation may make sense if characters retained all of their Uncanny Dodge feats. However, characters - upon leveling up - replace their previous Uncanny Dodge feat with the one appropriate for their level.

It -is- possible that the calculations are working properly in cases where the sneak attacker is equal or higher level to the target. But then we have the odd situation of high-level characters being immune to flanking sneaks from equal level sneak attacker, but not lower-level sneak attackers.

Whatever the case, the change appears to be applying inconsistently. Ideally, Beamdog would open such code to modification to allow for local fixes.

( For fun, a screenshot from a vanilla module made to test this update. )
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Re: That sneak attack adjustment

Post by msterswrdsmn » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:02 am

...I was wondering why Mifune wasnt getting hit with sneak attack from random spawns.

From what i've noticed, if i'm flatfooted, or not in combat, I can get sneak attacked. If i'm up and actively fighting? Yeah, I haven't seen an npc sneak attack me in months when i'm not out of combat or flat on my back. I guess this is why?

Sidenote; I'm pretty sure Mifune has uncanny dodge 3 by now, but I have yet to see anything really sneak attack me at any level that I can remember ever since the EE transition (again, when not blatantly flatfooted)

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Re: That sneak attack adjustment

Post by Morderon » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:19 pm

Did some testing myself which had much more consistent results

I used mix PCs and NPCs. the npcs were converted PCS, for these tests, as leto at least reports that a PC keeps every prior uncanny dodge.

All were rogues of: level 1, level 3, level 6, level 11, level 14, level 17, level 20, level 25, level 30. I had them all attack an immortal target, then tried to get flank sneaks. Edit: I've also run the same test, with the above rogues all attacking my pc, with the same results as below, the pc started at level 1 and i increased it's level throughout the test.

Level 1 and level 3 were always sneakable.
No one could sneak someone higher leveled, except level 1 against a level 3.
Level 14 couldn't sneak level 11, but could everyone 6 and below
Level 17 couldn't sneak level 14, but could everyone below
Level 20 couldn't sneak level 17, but could everyone below.
Level 25 could sneak everyone below
Level 30 could sneak everyone below.

Now I did discover a situation where level 1 and 3 rogue were immune to sneak attacks, but I didn't do any further tests to determine if 1) It's related to being a rogue. or 2) If it's related to having uncanny dodge.. Nor did i put the higher level rogues in the same situation.
Last edited by Morderon on Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Opustus
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Re: That sneak attack adjustment

Post by Opustus » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:52 pm

Oh my gosh darn, that sounds cumbersome to test...
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