The grotto

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Ascheriit
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The grotto

Post by Ascheriit » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:03 am

Any chance that its management will ever be returned to gnomish hands? I ask this in the first place because it really feels like the grotto is forgotten, and hasn't had any meaningful activity since I've been playing my svirfneblin. The non gnomes only ever seem to come through running weapons out to access the writs, or use the portal. If the gnomes actually had some ability to manage the place perhaps some actual RP could occur in this place.

I understand that the management was stripped away in part at least by some gnomes IC signing an agreement, but those gnome characters don't seem to be active anymore (at least I've never managed to run into them around the grotto or see them on the player list. The one I did meet I haven't seen for over a month). Not to undermine the intentions behind doing it, but this does feel like something that all current and future gnomes will be stuck with forever, even though they had no input.

This situation may not be so bad for rock gnomes and forest gnomes (since they can go to bendir or the turret, and not seems so out of place.), but if you want to play a svirfneblin you are really stuck with a choice between the grotto or Andunor (unless you want to have your svirf running around the surface all the time which doesn't really fit with a svirf).

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Re: The grotto

Post by Alantar » Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:13 am

There are gnomes against and in favour of the Earthkin alliance in its current state. In fact, I would dare to say that this is a major issue for gnomes nowadays.

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flower
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Re: The grotto

Post by flower » Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:26 pm

If you approached Brogenstein leadership i am certain They would be willing to past handling grotto onto an active gnome.

Did you even try to approach the leaders of Brogenstein?

Ascheriit
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Re: The grotto

Post by Ascheriit » Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:00 pm

I tried asking via a proxy (one of the dominions leaders who reports to the thane) ( Large time difference between me and dwarf leadership it seems as I only see stuff posted for events for the dwarves as late BST and late afternoon EDT, which makes it middle of the day PDT which is hard to get on at. ) , but got a no back with the shroud charter back as the reason why (the agreement those seemingly no longer active gnomes signed that gave away grotto management and their representation on earthkin alliance to the dwarves).

The module also doesn't currently support managing just the grotto and brog as a whole. Having some title in name only wouldn't really fix the issue.

I am trying to gauge if actual gnomish ownership is a possiblity again, because I am sure it would take some effort to have that happen, and it would come at opportunity cost of what I have been doing with my svirf character.

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Re: The grotto

Post by Emotionaloverload » Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:57 pm

I am fairly certain that like Bendir, Brog mechanically allows all Earthkin as citizens. So while the Grotto is mechanically under Brog's control, you could conceivably change the leadership to Gnomes with enough rp and effort.


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Ascheriit
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Re: The grotto

Post by Ascheriit » Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:25 pm

That sounds an awful lot like try and run for thane of brog as a svirfneblin, which quite frankly is unrealistic at best, as the current dwarf leadership is quite heavily entrenched in those positions (at least from what it seems like to me). I am just looking for if the gnomes can control the grotto mechanically, not brog and the grotto. The grotto could still be earthkin alliance and all, but just wouldn't be neglected like its current state is.

With the current combined control situation it really railroads you into having to buddy up to the dwarves (svirfs especially). That buddying up by a small amount of gnomes (only 4 gnomes signed the shroud charter) is what landed the grotto in this situation in the first place. At least for now though, those who put it in that situation are nowhere to be found to help with the situation they enforced on all current and future gnomes.

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Re: The grotto

Post by miesny_jez » Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:05 am

Hmm.. been a while since I logged in with my svirf character indeed. As one of the signatories I will login and take a look at it Acheriit. Some of the players who signed that treaty are still around but haven't seen their characters for a long time.

There were good reasons to sign that treaty at that time. And indepent settlement has its pluses yes but also quite a whole lot of minuses especially for the grotto which has its population on a cyclic rotation. Sometimes you have many svirfs/gnomes in the Grotto.. but You can also end up with literally you alone there for RL months.

Will try to catch You in game!

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Re: The grotto

Post by Ascheriit » Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:50 am

It feels like having a small subset making that far reaching a decision that affects all future users of the grotto, has guaranteed that there wont even be a cyclic population. With people moving in and just using it for storage/portal proximity and all, whilst going off elsewhere to rp.

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A little fellow
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Re: The grotto

Post by A little fellow » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:58 pm

Hi, I've been the Thane for the past two RL years.


It's worth noting that the Great Grotto has been one of the least active places on Arelith for some time now, apart from the odd bubbling up of activity during the Spriggan war, which lead to the IG treaty being signed by Brogendenstein and the Grotto. I think there are some big factors need to be considered if Devs ever attempt to address the fact that the Grotto is often a ghost-town.

1) A decision HAS to be made as to who the Grotto belongs to

Rock Gnomes and Svirfneblin are so drastically different that jumbling them together in one settlement is kind of senseless, and very much against their lore. In truth, Svirfneblin have more in common with Dwarfs than their Rock Gnome cousins, so having the Grotto located under Brogendenstein is not a stretch in that regard.

In my opinion - I side on the Grotto being worked into a large majority Svirfneblin settlement, as Bendir Dale has embraced Rock Gnomes comfortably and they also have the Tungsten Turret. There would be a lot of potential for a secretive and secure Svirfneblin town.

2) A decision HAS to be made on whether the Grotto is inkeeping with FR lore on Gnome races, or not .. because it is trying to be both and it doesn't work

IC we have attempted to instil a veil of secrecy over the Grotto (Because Svirfneblin), but the new writs in the Grotto have undermined this IC treaty by giving Earthkin and outsiders all the more reason to travel through lands which are supposed to be closely protected and which outsiders are strictly forbidden. As much as I'd love for at least 80% of PCs to respect IG laws and traditions over an EXP grab, I think it's much more likely that at least 80% of PCs will ignore IG laws and traditions in order to attain this EXP. If you catch them IC (which you likely wont), they rarely care enough to heed our warnings.

It's become a point of contention between Brog and the Grotto that we literally cannot address beyond spending half of our time IG standing guard outside the Ice Gate. There are lots of Svirfneblin in the Grotto, and Svirfneblin are not the kind of folk who will accept a steady flow of outsiders through their lands.

In my opinion - I side on making the Grotto a vastly more secretive society, and one that is not easily exploited to gain entry to. Myself and a group of Dwarf/Svirfneblin players suggested a while back to have a new system of entry to the Grotto lands which, simply put, would be a two part door hidden deep within Brogendenstein out of sight from outsiders. This door would have two locks, one which is only unlocked by the Dwarves, one that is only unlocked by the Svirfneblin, and both of these doors would need to be opened for anyone to enter. It would encourage RP between the races, and ensure that neither side can exploit the other (brazenly, at least).

3) Give the place a much needed facelift

The Great Grotto is near featureless when compared to other settlements on the Isle. Bendir's update proved that a bit of love can revive a playerbase, so what's wrong with giving the Gnomes some of this loving too?

In my opinion - It should at least be considered!



As for Gnome Grotto players, I think this needs to be considered.

1) Nobody is talking to us about this, IC or OOC

The only RP to come out of the Grotto are rants from separatists who call Brogendenstein a tyranny without .. actually .. RPing with us. I'm not saying there is no RP in the Grotto of course, it is just it very seldom comes out of the Grotto. If anything is known about the Brog playerbase, I hope it is that we are considerate of other players RP and that we attempt to make time for other players, but we cannot read minds.

Finding a specific player on this game is really not difficult. Some messages can get lost, or forgotten, or the PCs could become inactive, of course .. but if you give up and turn to forum posts because one message was not relayed to us, then you probably have not tried hard enough IG. Brogendenstein players have heard a small bit about displeasure in the Grotto, but as the settlements leader, I have heard nothing from any PC except the odd accusation of tyranny here and there.

2) We had no say in the administrative powers given to us

It was the Devs decision to make the Grotto a part of Brogendenstein because of low player count.

3) We have not used these administrative powers (to my recollection) in over two RL years

I understand the need for legitimacy, and I think Devs should consider giving Grotto players admin powers, but leaders need to actually lead through their RP also. Having your name spoken by an NPC only goes so far. The problem with much of the Grotto RP is that very few leadership figures have stood up to actually lead through actions, not caring about the fact nobody voted on it.
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Regionals
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Re: The grotto

Post by Regionals » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:31 pm

I wrote a reply yesterday then thought better of it. I think most of this is best handled in game.

But I do have a few quick points to throw out there, as someone who has been around the Grotto in various gnome forms for over 18 months now:

1. The Grotto is deceptively quiet. There is quite a bit of activity there, actually, but it’s not “hang out in the middle of town” style. The place was EXTREMELY active a year ago, but most of the major players are now dead (the Spriggan War, while an epic story, took a massive toll with gnome characters including a couple of my own), or, in one notable case, exiled.

2. To push rock gnome players out of the Grotto is unfair and ought to be off the table. There have been many, including a few of my own, who have been as invested in the place as any svirf. I don’t know that this should be their starting location, but they are as at home there as Bendir.. Where they are welcome, yes, but the hin will always call all the shots.

3. The Turret is just a building, four quarters and a workshop run by an NPC. It would have to be massively revamped to be a settlement or even a guild house. It is also particular in its current state to a certain kind of traditional tinkering gnome RP that isn’t for everyone. It’s more of a quirky “local color” kind of place like Mayfields than anything.

4. Gnomes haven’t approached Dwarves for independence for various reasons. One is, both sides are pretty much “out of sight, out of mind” and the Grotto is more or less independent already except every now and then when something goes down and it isn’t. Yes there have been rumblings on message boards but it's usually just that, rumblings, often from players who aren't all that invested (though this doesn't apply to everyone of course.) There are also Grotto residents who are fine with the status quo, mind you. Frankly, there hasn’t been a lot of REASON to fight for independence, though if the dwarves acted more like an occupying force I think that would change…

Two, the svirfs are canonically a timid race (and most have 4 charisma..) so most players are going to be about going with the flow instead of complicated politics.. Especially considering how many of them dabble in Anundor or other shady dealings. It’s going to be a rare player who wants to go alone or with small numbers to demand independence from an extremely powerful, lawful and notoriously rigid military leader, especially if they know they might get busted for being seen receiving a goblin messenger sent from a drow two months ago. BUT, if this is “in the air”, and if the possibility for independence exists mechanically (which is a big if) I think the players could be spurred to do it, whether on existing or new characters. This may require a dev to say that if RP went in this direction, they would consider detaching the Grotto from Brog.

5. As a side note I think the dwarven writ-giver in Brog should not be sending folks to the Grotto, especially now that they have their own. Not that earthkin shouldn’t be allowed to partake of the deep gnome writs but they should get them below.

I do think the Grotto could be independent but probably should not have leaders or elections. I don’t think it needs it and I think its place as a nexus of the Underdark and Earthkin lands demands a certain amount of shady activity, freedom and mischief (plus a Warden player or two to try to shame them into behaving.)

That was longer than I meant to write especially since I despise writing about this on the forums. Like I said above much of this should be handled in game and not here, though dev input on whether they would support this direction might be welcome. Now I may just have to go make a svirf freedom fighter..

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A little fellow
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Re: The grotto

Post by A little fellow » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:30 pm

@Regionals, I agree it’s perhaps not the kindest thing to remove Rock Gnomes from the Grotto, it may sound extreme on the surface but it’s only something I suggest after plenty of interactions with the Earthkin Alliance.

The Earthkin Alliance is faaaar from perfect, and I think that’s so because the races in it vary so much that when they are lumped together there is a lot of friction. It has played out time and time again .. Dwarfs have a lot more in common with Svirfneblin as a race, than they will ever have in common with Hin and Rock Gnomes, and vice versa.

At the end of the day these races need to be housed somewhere, but the more they are encouraged to do so around their own kind (lore wise, not just race) the more likely it is to breed healthy RP and settlements with a joint and overarching goal in mind.

Earthkin Alliance politics has for the longest time been effectively abandoned because Dwarfs/Svirfs do not get along with Hin/Rock Gnomes .. and it’s lead to some OOC frustrations on both sides as well as IC problems. The treaty the other players speak of was literally born out of Svirfneblin PCs frustration with the Earthkin Alliance and the other races within it except the Dwarfs .. plenty of them signed it as a rejection of the EA and a quasi-removal from it. I do not advocate Rock Gnomes being 100% disallowed from the Grotto, nor do I suggest Svirfs and Dwarfs should be disallowed from being a part of Bendir ... but I think if it was made clearer that the Brog/Grotto lands was a strong majority Dwarf/Svirf, whilst Bendir lands are a strong majority Hin/Rock Gnome .. it would allow for all parties to feel they have a place to call home.
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Xerah
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Re: The grotto

Post by Xerah » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:55 pm

As a former long-term rock gnome player, I had a hard time feeling at home in the Grotto, Bendir or Brogendenstien. So much so that I just completely gave up with anything to do with either place.

There will never be a large enough gnome population to justify a gnome settlement on their own and my experience with Bendir/Brogendenstien is that characters always have some dislike towards gnomes no matter how it goes, so you're basically an outcast from everywhere. The turret is a nice addition that helps to give rock gnomes a place where they can feel at home, but it would be helpful if there was some further development around it. That said, the place falls under the "Earthkin alliance" which has complicated matters further.

Maybe I'm the anomaly and people like the "I hate gnomes" character view, but it wasn't something that was very interesting to me.
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flower
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Re: The grotto

Post by flower » Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:54 am

Dwarven Thane or his second hand play often and in various timelinies, from american up to european.

So saying it is hard to impossible to catch them are outright lies of someone who put zero effort into it.

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Re: The grotto

Post by wulfburk » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:48 am

i just had someone being surprised (ic and ooc) at seing my char ( a dwarf) in brog, cause he thought the place was dead for long.

Coudnt be farther from what it is but timezones can have that effect. Most of us are european iirc so even though we try to change abit most of our events are around a specific time.

Leaving a message in the public boards can come in handy and a meeting arranged easily though.

And kinda off topic but a dm stance on the tungsten turret earthkin status would be good. We've had some rp related to that and it would be best for both parties imo if that npc leader in there came forth and talked about it. (Like ICly requested a few times as far as im aware)

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azrael_athing
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Re: The grotto

Post by azrael_athing » Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:26 am

Hello everyone. Azrael Athing here player of Terto Tarquin.

I'm not going to make a long rant about the past cause that really accumulates to nothing. Instead I am going to give my viewpoint on some of the things that have already been mentioned here, lampshade some IC stuff, and give suggestions of "quick-fixes" that may (or may not) improve the Gnome in Grotto Situation (GiGS)
Xerah wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:55 pm
As a former long-term rock gnome player, I had a hard time feeling at home in the Grotto, Bendir or Brogendenstien. So much so that I just completely gave up with anything to do with either place.

There will never be a large enough gnome population to justify a gnome settlement on their own and my experience with Bendir/Brogendenstien is that characters always have some dislike towards gnomes no matter how it goes, so you're basically an outcast from everywhere. The turret is a nice addition that helps to give rock gnomes a place where they can feel at home, but it would be helpful if there was some further development around it. That said, the place falls under the "Earthkin alliance" which has complicated matters further.

Maybe I'm the anomaly and people like the "I hate gnomes" character view, but it wasn't something that was very interesting to me.
First of I'd like to say that I agree with Xerah to 100%. I simply couldn't have put it in the same frame of words as Xerah did.
wulfburk wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:48 am
And kinda off topic but a dm stance on the tungsten turret earthkin status would be good. We've had some rp related to that and it would be best for both parties imo if that npc leader in there came forth and talked about it. (Like ICly requested a few times as far as im aware)
This is going to be a thing pushed for IC.
A little fellow wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:58 pm
1) A decision HAS to be made as to who the Grotto belongs to

Rock Gnomes and Svirfneblin are so drastically different that jumbling them together in one settlement is kind of senseless, and very much against their lore. In truth, Svirfneblin have more in common with Dwarfs than their Rock Gnome cousins, so having the Grotto located under Brogendenstein is not a stretch in that regard.

In my opinion - I side on the Grotto being worked into a large majority Svirfneblin settlement, as Bendir Dale has embraced Rock Gnomes comfortably and they also have the Tungsten Turret. There would be a lot of potential for a secretive and secure Svirfneblin town.
I am on the opposing foot of this. The absolute worst thing to do to favor an active Gnome community is to put them in several camps.
The Grotto and Gnome RP was at its peak when the rules of the Grotto wasn't strictly Deep-gnome nor Rock-gnome. It was in the difference of our characters we made that RP blossom. (pre-war)
A little fellow wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:58 pm
3) Give the place a much needed facelift

The Great Grotto is near featureless when compared to other settlements on the Isle. Bendir's update proved that a bit of love can revive a playerbase, so what's wrong with giving the Gnomes some of this loving too?

In my opinion - It should at least be considered!
This could have some effect, currently the quarters are all in the same area as both the "Shrine" and the research Laboratory which brings on a lot of frustration when it comes to fixtures.
Also, new stuff is new stuff.
A little fellow wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:58 pm
1) Nobody is talking to us about this, IC or OOC

The only RP to come out of the Grotto are rants from separatists who call Brogendenstein a tyranny without .. actually .. RPing with us. I'm not saying there is no RP in the Grotto of course, it is just it very seldom comes out of the Grotto. If anything is known about the Brog playerbase, I hope it is that we are considerate of other players RP and that we attempt to make time for other players, but we cannot read minds.

Finding a specific player on this game is really not difficult. Some messages can get lost, or forgotten, or the PCs could become inactive, of course .. but if you give up and turn to forum posts because one message was not relayed to us, then you probably have not tried hard enough IG. Brogendenstein players have heard a small bit about displeasure in the Grotto, but as the settlements leader, I have heard nothing from any PC except the odd accusation of tyranny here and there.
I'd like to add to this that it is seriously hard to advocate the sepperatist movement for any Gnome. I'd love to RP this kind of thing again however currently it is not wourth any of our time or effort.
Regionals wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:31 pm
3) We have not used these administrative powers (to my recollection) in over two RL years

I understand the need for legitimacy, and I think Devs should consider giving Grotto players admin powers, but leaders need to actually lead through their RP also. Having your name spoken by an NPC only goes so far. The problem with much of the Grotto RP is that very few leadership figures have stood up to actually lead through actions, not caring about the fact nobody voted on it.
Truth with modification. It is important for legitimacy. I am not certain the administrative powers given over to Grotto is actually needed. One thing that IS needed however is the mechanical banishment of Brogendenstein GONE from Gnome lands.
And the fact is that you do still use the adminastrive powers over Grotto in having a Gnome exiled from it.
This brings a problem as the Gnome community desperately small, and excluding even ONE character from the rest will re-draw the RP map critically. (I hope I make myself clear). To be a community we basically need every Gnome to partake in every Gnome RP (more or less). We still attempt this, however as some (read me) can't enter Grotto, Grotto is avoided.
The problem comes as anyone that desires to play the antagonist within the Earthkin Alliance ends up needing to invest badly in Bluff/Perform, just to continue to make RP. The mechanical Bannishments continue to kill good RP.
The simple sollution is to remove the Mechanical Bannishment from Grotto and see what comes of it.

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Re: The grotto

Post by A little fellow » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:54 pm

azrael_athing wrote:I am on the opposing foot of this. The absolute worst thing to do to favor an active Gnome community is to put them in several camps.
The Grotto and Gnome RP was at its peak when the rules of the Grotto wasn't strictly Deep-gnome nor Rock-gnome. It was in the difference of our characters we made that RP blossom. (pre-war)
I understand that RP comes from the contrasts in races when they are forced to work together, but a settlement should not be built on a platform like that. It's not anti-RP to suggest that a settlement should be structured in a way that largely leads to a community of PCs finding a common cause to work towards - infact it's the calm moments that makes the not so calm moments far more significant, and the RP that comes from them so much more memorable

It's just my opinion though .. if Svirfs were paired with Dwarfs in Brogendenstein/The Grotto and Rock Gnomes were paired with Hin in Bendir Dale/Turret it would lead to much more harmonious RP overall. I'll support more homes to Rock Gnomes, I just think it would help everyone if the Grotto had a clear and defined identity that followed the lore of FR ... rather than being a home for one set of people who are overly joyous, curious and childlike - and another set of people who are overly dour, secretive, and want only to go about their business unbothered by the utter distrust they hold for outsiders ... The difference between them is /literally/ night and day.

azrael_athing wrote:This could have some effect, currently the quarters are all in the same area as both the "Shrine" and the research Laboratory which brings on a lot of frustration when it comes to fixtures.
Also, new stuff is new stuff.
It's a shame it's not getting much love, because I think there is a good opportunity to make a very immersive home for Svirfneblin. We had the same problem in Brogendenstein, limited space, limited homes, limited unique features .. recent updates have somewhat addressed that, but the Grotto remains untouched and completely outdated.

azrael_athing wrote:I'd like to add to this that it is seriously hard to advocate the sepperatist movement for any Gnome. I'd love to RP this kind of thing again however currently it is not wourth any of our time or effort.
I hope my mentioning of separatist movements was not taken as though we will stifle and smother any attempts for this kind of RP to breath. Separatist RP is welcome, Terto is proof of that, but other than him, any attempts to go down this path have been initiated by (i'm sorry to say) random Gnomes that have never made any attempt to ever RP with Dwarfs about the matter .. it begins with a call for separation because we are 'tyrants', and nothing is brought to us before those players eventually give up before they have even started. It isn't shrugged off because we are OOC against any attempts to RP the tension between us, it is shrugged off because it's often completely out of context, and lazy.

If there is a story to be built, then build it. If you don't have the drive to build this story, then it's not our fault when nothing comes of it ... The IC agreement that was mentioned previously was the product of one player taking the time and putting in the effort to gain trust and IC repute, and because of that the Dwarfs signed off on a treaty that the PC advocated and took the time to gather support for.

azrael_athing wrote:Truth with modification. It is important for legitimacy. I am not certain the administrative powers given over to Grotto is actually needed. One thing that IS needed however is the mechanical banishment of Brogendenstein GONE from Gnome lands.
And the fact is that you do still use the adminastrive powers over Grotto in having a Gnome exiled from it.
This brings a problem as the Gnome community desperately small, and excluding even ONE character from the rest will re-draw the RP map critically. (I hope I make myself clear). To be a community we basically need every Gnome to partake in every Gnome RP (more or less). We still attempt this, however as some (read me) can't enter Grotto, Grotto is avoided.
The problem comes as anyone that desires to play the antagonist within the Earthkin Alliance ends up needing to invest badly in Bluff/Perform, just to continue to make RP. The mechanical Bannishments continue to kill good RP.
The simple sollution is to remove the Mechanical Bannishment from Grotto and see what comes of it.
I understand your reasoning and agree that if players in Brog were to be exile happy against Gnomes it would pose a problem for the numbers in the Grotto, but I'm not to sure this has ever really been a problem that I have witnessed over the past two years.

I must admit, the only Gnome that I can recall exiling from the Grotto was your Terto, at the request of the Gnomes of the Grotto. How many other Gnomes were actually exiled? There was another Gnome in Arrinock that we gave a non-mechanical banishment for very legitimate reasons, but that was never really an exile .. other than that I'm not really sure what other Gnomes were exiled.

I think this just strays into the territory of IC actions having IC consequences, really.
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Re: The grotto

Post by miesny_jez » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:05 pm

I'm not really sure where is this coming from?

I dusted off my Svirf, logged in and had a long read through all of the messages on the public board. And .. actually I didn't see any repeated complaints or Free-Grotto RP movements. I don't even see any Svirf groups advertising themselves or an effort to raise interest?

Don't want to point fingers at anyone.. but are You actually pursuing this goal from IC side? Organizing political and informative meetings for the svirf community? Meeting as a single PC with the dwarven Thane to discuss / make threats whatever.. doesn't really count, unless You have some uniformed backing from the rest of svirf community.

I know that the Grotto and svirf RP work in a kind-of different approach to the rest of the server but if You aren't active on the IC board and won't make people interested in logging in together and doing RP together - You cannot expect any change to happen. I mean I don't see the inertia on the board.

Let me tell You this - my svirf character (Ruby Glitterdust) was all alone in the Grotto for like 4 RL months, loggin in every day even if none else around. After good 3 months I started Mageary faction there.. I applied regular messages, I posted research notes, I talked with dwarfs/hins about joint magical reasearch stuffs, I applied for grants in arcane tower, talked with tower mages to signalise joint research.. damn even build up a renome for a scientist in Adnunor.. all of this to raise general understanding that there is something going on under the ground. At first nothing changed... but then after a RL month or so people started to create svirfs cause they wanted to try out svirfs or checkout what is happening. Some of those new svirfs were staying cause they liked it some of them not.. but in overall from the meager 2 active svirfs we had at the beginning.. the population exploded to 7 unique svirfs active on day basis + 3 Gnomes (waves to Terto). I dare to say that at some point we had even larger active population then Brog considering we had two truly active factions running and one antagonist svirf hunting us as well.. my list was like 14 uniqe character long at that time.

You see what I am getting to with those "I" in the paragraph above? I spent hours.. just for walking around, talking and posting notes instead of running around killing things for xp. In my daily game session I have always used at least 1 hour just to stand with my character at research sites and do nothing else then emote taking samples and the remaining 2 hours were used on talking and notes posting. So my question is again.. are You building this up from IC side? Are You making this as a possible interesting RP story to participate in? If You want change you have to drive it and not expect the DEVs or server administration will do it for You.

How to make an interesting story for Svirfs?

1. Realise what are the players looking for.
Players are looking for something unique to join in. Not unique in terms of race/mechanics.. unique in terms of story.
In our Mageary case it was absolute craziness with magical ideas.

2. Raise the player awareness
Talk about it! Post about it! Approach possible suppliers and hint them that Svirf faction this and this.. requires to procure large amount of materials. Even if You don't have the cash for it, doesnt matter - Your goal is just to raise player awareness that something is brewing up.

3. Make the players feel needed
Every player who joins Your faction has to have a task they can achieve and work towards... and they have to see it as a part of the big picture. They have to see that there is a plan... even if there is none in fact and You made up all of the grand plan in the last 4 minutes. Hint: better write down Your plans


I just think that the simple GET OUT its Svirf Town.. simply isn't good enough of a story for making players interested in joining up and that's why nothing is changing.

Some possibilities which could be much more interesting from a story PoV and which "could" (but not have to) end up with Your goal in mind (independent settlement):
1. Svirf aggresive land grabbing?
2. Plague in Grotto?
3. Svirf setup with Andunor against *insert settlement here*
4. Svirf military group focused on attack instead of defense?
5. Population boom?
6. Excavation work going wrong?

I just think there is not enough interesting IC pressure and thats why nothing is changing.. remember that independence doesn't have to be end goal from the IC perspective.

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A little fellow
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Re: The grotto

Post by A little fellow » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:10 pm

Xerah wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:55 pm
As a former long-term rock gnome player, I had a hard time feeling at home in the Grotto, Bendir or Brogendenstien. So much so that I just completely gave up with anything to do with either place.

There will never be a large enough gnome population to justify a gnome settlement on their own and my experience with Bendir/Brogendenstien is that characters always have some dislike towards gnomes no matter how it goes, so you're basically an outcast from everywhere. The turret is a nice addition that helps to give rock gnomes a place where they can feel at home, but it would be helpful if there was some further development around it. That said, the place falls under the "Earthkin alliance" which has complicated matters further.

Maybe I'm the anomaly and people like the "I hate gnomes" character view, but it wasn't something that was very interesting to me.

You could have easily said there would never be a large enough half-orc population under one banner to justify a settlement, but that proved not to be true in the last few months .. there just needs to be enough people who don't give up on anything to do with either place.

I'm comfortable knowing that Brogendenstein players do not have OOC hatred for Gnomes that bleed through to their characters as you think they 'always' do .. Ivory and Torlarnd have been some of the most loved characters in Brogendenstein in recent RL years. It's always worth looking at your characters actions objectively so you can fully understand if a dislike towards your character is well earned or born out of OOC reasons. If you think it's the latter then we are best to agree to disagree.

A Gnome that does questionable things shall be questioned, that's a really good thing. If Gnomes as a group do questionable things, Gnomes as a group shall be questioned. Accountability drives the story forward.

Something I have found a very strange trend recently is that groups of Gnomes advocate both to be more included in the Earthkin Alliance, whilst also attempting to remove themselves from it.
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Regionals
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Re: The grotto

Post by Regionals » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:35 pm

I am trying to stay out of this and keep it in game but..

As someone who has played gnomes of all kinds for a long time now, I don't think the svirfs/dwarves and rock gnomes/hin pairings hold up. A few svirfs have embraced Brog.. Notably "Smith", who was about as lawful and good as a deep gnome could be.. But most are very undwarflike, preferring to mingle in Anundor than Brog where things are exciting and unpredictable and move quickly. The lack of interaction brought up before is telling, I just don't think either race is really all that interested in the other. If you are attracted to the lawful and militaristic Brog style of RP, you play a dwarf. Gnome players tend to be much more individualistic and eccentric, and also cycle through more quickly-- I can't imagine any gnome leader lasting 2 years, most characters don't even last half that!

Perhaps there's lip service about the alliance, but I just don't think most svirf players past and present would say the RP with dwarves is a highlight or priority for their character. I haven't played a dwarf but I would not be surprised if this was the same for them. They just.. really aren't that similar, at least on Arelith. This isn't a knock on the quality of anyone's RP, just speaking of relationship chemistry.

A lot of rock gnome do fit in well in Bendir, I agree on that, but it's perhaps 50%, and the others absolutely do not. The grotto is an excellent fit for those who don't. I don't want to get into an argument about whether rock gnomes belong in the grotto though, because I don't see opinions from anyone here changing.

..

Frankly to speak of this like there's some separatist movement in the Grotto who aren't going to the dwarves.. That's not really the case. Random players seem to glom on to that notion because standing up to "the man" is an easy RP hook but it's not something the gnome community at large really thinks about. There was a more legit push last year but since the word came down that nothing was likely to change mechanically-- AND because the Spriggan war kind of took over everything, and wiped out the numbers a bit too (see above, gnomes cycle quickly)-- it was dropped, and most characters involved then are no longer with us. If there is momentum from all sides, the gnomes, the dwarves and the devs saying they are willing to consider changing things (which would also require some dedicated players to put in the effort to make it so) then I could see something happening but in lieu of that it will probably be status quo. Which really doesn't have to be a bad thing, the Grotto as it stands is a quite lovely place.

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Re: The grotto

Post by Xerah » Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:44 pm

A little fellow wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:10 pm
You could have easily said there would never be a large enough half-orc population under one banner to justify a settlement, but that proved not to be true in the last few months .. there just needs to be enough people who don't give up on anything to do with either place.
The half-orc settlement is not mechanically set up with elections and such. Just the same as the Grotto. I don't see the need to push either past that, which was my point.

To counterpoint my own comment: "if you built it, they will come". Sometimes people will start characters with the express interest in targeting certain places. It's not as interesting to do it without mechanical support. If it did happen, it does have the risk of still being woefully underutilized and thus undesired.

A little fellow wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:10 pm
I'm comfortable knowing that Brogendenstein players do not have OOC hatred for Gnomes that bleed through to their characters as you think they 'always' do .. Ivory and Torlarnd have been some of the most loved characters in Brogendenstein in recent RL years. It's always worth looking at your characters actions objectively so you can fully understand if a dislike towards your character is well earned or born out of OOC reasons. If you think it's the latter then we are best to agree to disagree.
I don't really think anything was born here out of OOC issues (aside from ICly being forced to do something that was mechanically impossible). My whole point is there should be some IC leniency to allow gnomes characters a place (born out of OOC limitations of a lack of settlement of their own). Sure, there are some exceptions, but anecdotally, I never felt that and I know a number of others have felt similar.
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A little fellow
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Re: The grotto

Post by A little fellow » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:37 pm

Regionals wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:35 pm
As someone who has played gnomes of all kinds for a long time now, I don't think the svirfs/dwarves and rock gnomes/hin pairings hold up. A few svirfs have embraced Brog.. Notably "Smith", who was about as lawful and good as a deep gnome could be.. But most are very undwarflike, preferring to mingle in Anundor than Brog where things are exciting and unpredictable and move quickly
I'm not saying what you, or other Svirfneblin players have done in RPing largely in Andunor is wrong ..

But hanging around Andunor is both UnDwarf-like and UnSvirfneblin-like. I get it, what players do shouldn't be dictated by me, but the lore is very much against a strong contingent of Svirfneblin making their homes in a predominantly evil UD setting. I am not using this as an argument AGAINST Svirfneblin players doing this, but rather an argument FOR giving Svirfneblin players the tools to RP in a setting consistent with their lore.


Also .. Svirfs who do spend all their time in Andunor are likely to be seen as either evil, or certainly not good. That just comes with the territory, literally.
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Regionals
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Re: The grotto

Post by Regionals » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:57 pm

I'm 100% not discussing this with you and consider it very out of line. I've been playing Svirfs since the Grond era and know the lore damn well, thank you.

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Re: The grotto

Post by A little fellow » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:59 pm

Alright, I'm willing to discuss with you if you ever change your mind.
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azrael_athing
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Re: The grotto

Post by azrael_athing » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:00 pm

A little fellow wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:10 pm
A Gnome that does questionable things shall be questioned, that's a really good thing. If Gnomes as a group do questionable things, Gnomes as a group shall be questioned. Accountability drives the story forward.
A little fellow wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:37 pm
I'm not saying what you, or other Svirfneblin players have done in RPing largely in Andunor is wrong ..

But hanging around Andunor is both UnDwarf-like and UnSvirfneblin-like. I get it, what players do shouldn't be dictated by me, but the lore is very much against a strong contingent of Svirfneblin making their homes in a predominantly evil UD setting. I am not using this as an argument AGAINST Svirfneblin players doing this, but rather an argument FOR giving Svirfneblin players the tools to RP in a setting consistent with their lore.
Both the above comments from the player of the Thane of Brogendenstein pretty much sums up why the Grotto is currently inactive.

What the Gnome community need is a place where we can allow the RP that we create (and I assume we want to create, considering it is what we create) may flurish and grow. However the Grotto simply is not the place to create it.

Call it a measure of artistical freedom.

ps. +1 on Regionals post.

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Re: The grotto

Post by A little fellow » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:12 pm

azrael_athing wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:00 pm
A little fellow wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:10 pm
A Gnome that does questionable things shall be questioned, that's a really good thing. If Gnomes as a group do questionable things, Gnomes as a group shall be questioned. Accountability drives the story forward.
A little fellow wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:37 pm
I'm not saying what you, or other Svirfneblin players have done in RPing largely in Andunor is wrong ..

But hanging around Andunor is both UnDwarf-like and UnSvirfneblin-like. I get it, what players do shouldn't be dictated by me, but the lore is very much against a strong contingent of Svirfneblin making their homes in a predominantly evil UD setting. I am not using this as an argument AGAINST Svirfneblin players doing this, but rather an argument FOR giving Svirfneblin players the tools to RP in a setting consistent with their lore.
Both the above comments from the player of the Thane of Brogendenstein pretty much sums up why the Grotto is currently inactive.

What the Gnome community need is a place where we can allow the RP that we create (and I assume we want to create, considering it is what we create) may flurish and grow. However the Grotto simply is not the place to create it.

Call it a measure of artistical freedom.

ps. +1 on Regionals post.

The Grotto is inactive because my OOC beliefs are that players should be accountable for their actions and that I think the Grotto would benefit from an update which would help Svirfneblin RP to flourish?

The Grotto has been a hub of inactivity well before you or me. It's not nice to hear you say you think I'm part of the problem when I've absolutely suggested giving Gnomes new toys to play with and the ability to control their direction.

P.S. I am not a Dev for Arelith, what I've suggesting here is not going to be implemented .. it's just my thoughts, which you are free to disagree with. People can disagree with each other without things leading to an argument.
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