The grotto

[Regionals]

I won't, because I won't discuss how I should be playing my characters according to someone else's perception of lore. I would NEVER do that to someone else and think it is an extreme overreach in what is appropriate between players.

But I will follow up to defend myself. I have played easily a dozen svirf characters from good to evil and I am very familiar with every bit of available lore. If they were played truly according to canon they would simply be unseen and elsewhere and probably never adventure. But it's a game, so PCs need to lean towards being scrappy survivors or eccentrics or merchants or escaped slaves or Wardens or whatever else makes them unusual members of their race. This isn't unique, many of the races of Arelith are a little different than the rule books because they have to adapt to the setting and the peculiarities of a 24/7 persistent world. There's very little reason for forest gnomes and wild dwarves to hang around Bendir and kill thousands of NPCS in dirty dungeons either, but if you want to play one you find a way.

If svirf characters weren't meant to be a part of the undercity (which is an evil place but not everyone there is evil, some are there for other reasons or just to get rich-- there is plenty of great RP in this conflict) they would not be able to start there and it would not be littered with dozens of svirf Tinkers and NPCs including a prominent former PC in the library. For heaven's sake, NPC svirfs built the recently opened shipyard there, they are intended to have a place.

I accept that your perception is different and respect that you are entitled to an opinion, and would appreciate the same.

[ForgottenBhaal]

Svirfs have more akin to dwarves than you'd think. They are a xenophibic, stalwart race that seems more focused on their craft than the typical explosions of insanity you'd expect from normal gnomes. So I dont personally find it odd that the Grotto was paired together with the halls. Thats just my thoughts on the matter.

(..Also, it never made sense for Svirfs to work with Pit town, or Grond. The races that lived there was some of the ones that hunted and enslaved them. Svirfs are a race that leans more towards good, than evil in the underdark and is hunted by almost every other race down there.)

Gonna leave this here to help people out abit, if they are curious about svirfs.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Deep_gnome#3e

[Regionals]

Let's seriously drop the "you're doing it wrong" and get back to discussing the Grotto itself.

[Versatile]

"As a rule, deep gnomes are deeply suspicious of all other races, though they hold a special enmity for the drow and the duergar, whose violent ways often interfere with the svirfneblin wish for isolation"

"If forced to deal with surface-dwellers, a deep gnome is most likely to find forest gnomes agreeable, who, like the deep gnomes and unlike the rock gnomes, are a reclusive, withdrawn folk. If compelled to seek out companions who are not gnomes, deep gnomes are open, if not friendly, towards gold dwarves, shield dwarves, and some of the Tel-quessir. Beyond that, deep gnomes have few opinions other than a general distrust."

"Most other svirfneblin live isolated in small communities in the Underdark, hidden away from the drow and other Underdark races who terrorize and subjugate them. "

I'm not trying to argue or stir anything by posting this, but this is the lore that I read as I researched the race just a week ago. Now all that said/posted, does not mean that what has been rped in arelith over the years wouldn't supersede this. Arelith has made its own lore.

But imho if you and your kind are known to be socializing and working with a race that is one of the most foul then it shouldn't be surprising that people will react/respond to it. It isn't (from the first thing I copied) because of their coloring and assumption but because of their actual actions. Actions absolutely MUST, with all due respect, have consequences.

Again, apologies, just my opinion and I hope it doesn't rub all parties the wrong way.

[Hawker]

Let's seriously drop the "you're doing it wrong" and get back to discussing the Grotto itself.

I have read every post and so far not seen a single "you're doing it wrong" directed at you or your characters. There have been general references to the lore from outside of Arelith that describe the Drow and Duergar as despised enemies and the Dwarves as good potential allies. There have also been upfront statements that Arelith lore does not have to directly mirror source material from outside the setting.

I would like to suggest, and this goes to everyone, that we read the posts and grant the writer the best possible interpretation of what is written instead of the worst possible one.

[A little fellow]

Let's seriously drop the "you're doing it wrong" and get back to discussing the Grotto itself.

I hope you didn't think I was telling you you're doing it wrong. I did actually say in my post that I do not believe you are doing it wrong, and that it wasn't for me to dictate your character. That is 100% correct, and not something I ever disagreed with.

As I said also, my suggestion of strengthening the Svirf feel of the Grotto was not an effort to step all over your RP, or the RP of the other Svirfs who call Andunor their home .. but a part of an effort to instil a common goal for Svirfneblin players that is a bit more inkeeping with FR lore. That's all.

[Versatile]

As far as the Grotto? It seemed fairly empty when I was there, which was lately, There were only what, 6 quarters off the top of my head, and three were open. I'm not sure what could be done to get it more active but having it closed to Brog would only stop traffic moving in and out. I mean, if they are only passing through for the portal at least they ~are~ passing through and there is a chance to rp with them.

[Ironfoot]

My toon during its lifetime was part of several gnome or svirfneblin groups, including anti-dwarf/outsider, anti-rock gnomes, anti-good/bad svirfneblins, and i support them all at some point except "bad" but there was at certain points even rp cooperation with such. What i can say is during many moots/meeting were it 4-6 players or as it was at one point 40 ACTIVE gnomes, decisions because of variety of ideas always end up to what is it now.

YES, low numbers did hold effect on how mechanics were implemented but if anyone diggs into svirf arelith lore that i must admit is not easy to do as by tradition they dont note, but still there are many precious notebooks unfortunate on players who are not active, one would find out that all DEVs mechanics have root in past svirfneblin player RPs and their actions. There is even some lore that is public here on forums, some ideas are on old boards around the place, not much...but good for a start for your gnomish research.

Maybe gnomes didnt get fancy place but they got the greatest DM driven event "Spriggan Saga" as result of many gnome activity that had effect as nothing before over entire Arelith and thats why we are here because of stories, not titles and ownership.

For all questions here asked answers are already in the game, if one is not in favour of some treaty, inspect it..see who signed it and see how you can create RP to remove it, dont see it as an obstacle but as a challenge and use it to transfer into your idea how story could continue in whatever direction one would like, this is roleplay all is possible, but also consequences of your actions as well.

Svirfneblins are traders, no matter what anyone says they will go trade where they like, but they wount feel anywhere safe or trust anyone to the end including sometimes those at "home".

Grotto is for me fair to svirfs but unfair to rock gnomes, its simply too-underdark and as rock gnome i dont feel there at home as Xerah here said and i agree with the player as well with much what Miesny_jez said also. I am personally not in favour of administration but rather to remain ground for different RP where one common at some point could take charge to take the community into its next phase, whatever that is.

I personally hope for new rp ideas of something we didnt see so far as all this mentioned angles end up where we are now.

Cheers to all players of gnomes on this thread, i had huge fun playing with every single one of you.

[Ascheriit]

"Maybe gnomes didnt get fancy place but they got the greatest DM driven event "Spriggan Saga"

Ill remind you that there are people like me who joined after EE who didn't get to experience these supposedly great events, but instead as new and active players are stuck dealing with the baggage unique to this race. Most of the gnomish rp also seems to be greatly stuck in the rut around the history and divisions it formed in an already small player base.

The half-orc settlement is not mechanically set up with elections and such. Just the same as the Grotto. I don't see the need to push either past that, which was my point.

I was just thinking about this approach when playing an alt on Skaljard. To me it would seem like a possible middle ground. Though some occassional intervention may be needed, but it would be an improvement in my opinion. Given that this could help prevent a disproportionate amount of power going to one gnome player, and dividing the community further.

I mean, if they are only passing through for the portal at least they ~are~ passing through and there is a chance to rp with them.

It is kinda hard to catch someone to rp with them, when the distance from the elevator to the portal can be covered in a few seconds. If it was closed they would actually have to rp some sort of relations with the grotto to use it. This would lead to it have some role rather than convenient planar portal location, and convenient earthkin portal to UD. I mean if I am lucky and they arent just passing through, they're going for the writ and messing up the fixtures in the process which has been a recent pain of late.

For all questions here asked answers are already in the game, if one is not in favour of some treaty, inspect it..see who signed it and see how you can create RP to remove it, dont see it as an obstacle but as a challenge and use it to transfer into your idea how story could continue in whatever direction one would like, this is roleplay all is possible, but also consequences of your actions as well.

This was why I originally brought it up. On the player list the only one I ever saw with any regularity was the Thane, which lead me to believe all the other signers were long gone abandoned characters. Both you and the thane speak of consequences for actions, but it seems like most of these signers arent around anymore for any such consequences that would arise from such. It is quite hard to rp with the signers if there is only one who is active with any regularity.

Don't want to point fingers at anyone.. but are You actually pursuing this goal from IC side? Organizing political and informative meetings for the svirf community? Meeting as a single PC with the dwarven Thane to discuss / make threats whatever.. doesn't really count, unless You have some uniformed backing from the rest of svirf community.

There are regular meetings between at least a subset of gnomes and svirfs that call the grotto home or at least use it. Most of the svirfs that I've seen created in Andunor seem to be transient and rarely stick around more than a few days, and I do try to reach out to them when I find them IC. As far as I have observed I know most of the svirfs that are still active with some regularity, and they tend to be involved or at least invited to those meetings to my knowledge.

I won't, because I won't discuss how I should be playing my characters according to someone else's perception of lore. I would NEVER do that to someone else and think it is an extreme overreach in what is appropriate between players.

But I will follow up to defend myself. I have played easily a dozen svirf characters from good to evil and I am very familiar with every bit of available lore. If they were played truly according to canon they would simply be unseen and elsewhere and probably never adventure. But it's a game, so PCs need to lean towards being scrappy survivors or eccentrics or merchants or escaped slaves or Wardens or whatever else makes them unusual members of their race. This isn't unique, many of the races of Arelith are a little different than the rule books because they have to adapt to the setting and the peculiarities of a 24/7 persistent world. There's very little reason for forest gnomes and wild dwarves to hang around Bendir and kill thousands of NPCS in dirty dungeons either, but if you want to play one you find a way.

If svirf characters weren't meant to be a part of the undercity (which is an evil place but not everyone there is evil, some are there for other reasons or just to get rich-- there is plenty of great RP in this conflict) they would not be able to start there and it would not be littered with dozens of svirf Tinkers and NPCs including a prominent former PC in the library. For heaven's sake, NPC svirfs built the recently opened shipyard there, they are intended to have a place.

I accept that your perception is different and respect that you are entitled to an opinion, and would appreciate the same.

I agree with this. Those who don't play the UD remember Andunor is a trade city, not some Llothite drow, duergar, and monster only place. The great variety of rp in the city is why characters like my svirf spends time there, and I can't say enough how appreciative I am that even those people playing classic racial enemies are willing to be inclusive. That same variety is hard to experience in the dominion as a svirf, unless you want to run about the surface in the majority of your time.

Dwarven Thane or his second hand play often and in various *time zones* , from american up to european.
So saying it is hard to impossible to catch them are outright lies of someone who put zero effort into it.

Thanks you for a most helpful accusation, that greatly improves this thread. Im not saying its impossible, just usually seems to be when I see them on the portal list, is when they're busy with dominion events. I have also IC talked with high ranking members of dominion, and that was who I tried to ask via, but evidently it sounds like it did not get relayed (To which I shall try again to relay it IC). I also have IC issues which make meeting directly in person difficult, as it has great potential to damage the other rp I have undertaken if executed poorly. I really started this thread to gauge if its even possible before I embark down a difficult time consuming road to what could possibly dead end. I would rather prefer to do something else if I know its doomed to go nowhere. I have heard from others who tried bringing up these issues in the past that it ultimately goes nowhere.

Let's seriously drop the "you're doing it wrong" and get back to discussing the Grotto itself.

Couldn't agree more Regionals. Seems like a lot of people who haven't played gnomes or other unrelated parties chiming in without the background knowledge of the server situation.

P.S. Sorry if the editing is sloppy, was trying to only quote the applicable sections, and not create a wall of text. Though it seems I may still have done that.

[A little fellow]

Ascheriit, I do not mean for this to be patronising, but as you mentioned you joined after EE I think it is worth mentioning.

1) The actions of characters do not become invalid upon their rolling. Learning the story of a settlement and it’s traditions is an obstacle every player has to overcome. When I became leader of Brog it sat as a ghost town for months, some would even say years, and I quickly realised there was very little recording of history or traditions to work off of ... so I dug and dug and attempted to piece together what I could, and filled in the gaps appropriately where necessary.


2) Most of the words you have quoted are from prominent and some current Gnome players, so it’s best we don’t get into a cycle of claiming to know how much specific players have contributed to the Grotto.

But what I believe, is that if you struggle to find a specific player, either you haven’t tried hard enough or that player is no longer actively playing. 200 players is a small community to attempt to weed somebody out from .. I get people finding me all the time for their little bits of RP.


3) Even if we haven’t played Gnomes it does not make our points about Gnomen lore invalid in the context attempting to improve player numbers and RP in the Grotto.

And to a lesser extent, just because a long lasting Gnome player gives you their take on a situation does not mean that take is entirely accurate .. as you saw one player claimed that Brogendenstein guts Grotto numbers by mechanically exiling decent numbers of Gnomes, when in truth (im perfectly willing to be proven wrong on this btw, my question still stands) the only Gnome we can ever recall exiling was that very players Gnome at the request of the Grotto.

At the very least you can see this is a subject that brings out a bit of animosity between two sets of players, and that’s seldom the best mindset to be in when it comes to accurate accounts of what has happened in the past.


4) You probably don’t know, but when settlements want to get away with letting people who shouldn’t really (within the confines of Areliths history/lore) be inside your settlement, inside your settlement - the thing they most often do is claim it is a ‘Trade City’.

This isn’t just Andunor, but Bendir, Wharftown .. you name them and they have likely done it as an excuse to do this at some point. Andunor is quite different from those settlements obviously, but unless it has changed drastically since I last saw it, it has a large Drow contingent of NPCs and buildings, backed up by House Freth. As well as Duergar slavers, Gnoll, Orog .. all people that Svirfneblin would under most circumstances (though it’s okay it’s not your own) call ‘enemy’

[Ascheriit]

1. The legacy of a character remaining is one thing, but this is the only case I have observed in my time on this server that took it to this extent. As you, ironfoot, and Versatile liked to point out "actions have consequences". Does that only apply to those the Dominion brands as evil like Terto? are the charter signers allowed to go inactive (I haven't been unable to find them IC, I also haven't seen them active on the servers player list) and have never have any consequences come their way (whilst their changes still stay in place unable to properly be challenged)? I can post about it try and find them I suppose, but that still wont ever lead to IC IG consequences for their actions from the characters of those who don't agree with the far reaching choices made.

2 & 3. Does the opinion of those who are less effected by these issues matter more than the small gnomish player base who is most greatly effected by the issues? Unless I am forgetting some other race that has more at stake than the gnome players would. I may have worded it poorly, but when I meant unrelated parties, I mean those who I have seen chime in on this and similar topics without being active in some capacity with the gnomes of the grotto ( to which brog obviously is).

3.Well one player is a significant amount when the active gnomes that actually seem to stick around, and go anywhere near the grotto is as low as it is. I have gotten the same general viewpoints from a few different gnomes IG. Was that exile from the current grotto population or the same ones who signed the shroud charter and aren't regularly active?

4. How assuming, I don't know when you have last gone to Andunor on any character. If you go to Andunor now, you will notice there are a good amount of npc svirfs down there between the svirf run shipyard, and the svirf in the andunor library (a good amount given how small svirf population is supposed to be). Just because those other races are there doesn't mean that any and all svirfs that go there will be enslaved or force to work for the drow/duergar/monster races there. They also actually rp it as a trade city, rather than just acting like its one in name only, which is probably what the others settlements did at that time. The districts and their leadership appear to tackle issues that damage trade and business not just those that endanger the city among the other things they do (or to plot the demise of the surface like some think).

[Ascheriit]

1. The legacy of a character remaining is one thing, but this is the only case I have observed in my time on this server that took it to this extent. As you, ironfoot, and Versatile liked to point out "actions have consequences". Does that only apply to those the Dominion brands as evil like Terto? are the charter signers allowed to go inactive (I haven't been unable to find them IC, I also haven't seen them active on the servers player list) and have never have any consequences come their way (whilst their changes still stay in place unable to properly be challenged)? I can post about it try and find them I suppose, but that still wont ever lead to IC IG consequences for their actions from the characters of those who don't agree with the far reaching choices made.

2 & 3. Does the opinion of those who are less effected by these issues matter more than the small gnomish player base who is most greatly effected by the issues? Unless I am forgetting some other race that has more at stake than the gnome players would. I may have worded it poorly, but when I meant unrelated parties, I mean those who I have seen chime in on this and similar topics without being active in some capacity with the gnomes of the grotto ( to which brog obviously is).

3.Well one player is a significant amount when the active gnomes that actually seem to stick around, and go anywhere near the grotto is as low as it is. I have gotten the same general viewpoints from a few different gnomes IG. Was that exile from the current grotto population or the same ones who signed the shroud charter and aren't regularly active?

4. How assuming, I don't know when you have last gone to Andunor on any character. If you go to Andunor now, you will notice there are a good amount of npc svirfs down there between the svirf run shipyard, and the svirf in the andunor library (a good amount given how small svirf population is supposed to be). Just because those other races are there doesn't mean that any and all svirfs that go there will be enslaved or force to work for the drow/duergar/monster races there. They also actually rp it as a trade city, rather than just acting like its one in name only, which is probably what the others settlements did at that time. The districts and their leadership appear to tackle issues that damage trade and business not just those that endanger the city among the other things they do (or to plot the demise of the surface like some think).

[A little fellow]

1. The legacy of a character remaining is one thing, but this is the only case I have observed in my time on this server that took it to this extent. As you, ironfoot, and Versatile liked to point out "actions have consequences". Does that only apply to those the Dominion brands as evil like Terto? are the charter signers allowed to go inactive (I haven't been unable to find them IC, I also haven't seen them active on the servers player list) and have never have any consequences come their way (whilst their changes still stay in place unable to properly be challenged)? I can post about it try and find them I suppose, but that still wont ever lead to IC IG consequences for their actions from the characters of those who don't agree with the far reaching choices made.

No it does not just apply to the people the Dominion (although Terto was exiled after a ruling by the Earthkin Alliance) brands as evil, like Terto.

.. It also applies to that which is born out of Kinship, mutual protection, from an all around good place .. like the treaty the majority of Brog and the Grotto signed.

And I agree fully that if there are disgruntled folk who are against this treaty, them contesting it should absolutely be heeded by Brog players .. the problem is that bare minimum to nothing has been mentioned of it to any of us by people that aren't deemed objectively against the interests of both Brog and the Grotto. If your player has a case to make against it, then rally up support, argue this case .. fight tooth and nail.

But I'll repeat what I said earlier. Those who live in Andunor can either be judged on the surface to be at least not good, if not evil. That is an action having a consequence, and a consequence that shouldn't be seem as some anti-Gnomen conspiracy just because it is brought up. If the consequences don't fit in with the truth of the matter (perhaps they actually ARE good, but living in Andunor for other purposes) then it is up to you and your character to argue against it .. But it shouldn't be called an OOC conspiracy.

2 & 3. Does the opinion of those who are less effected by these issues matter more than the small gnomish player base who is most greatly effected by the issues? Unless I am forgetting some other race that has more at stake than the gnome players would. I may have worded it poorly, but when I meant unrelated parties, I mean those who I have seen chime in on this and similar topics without being active in some capacity with the gnomes of the grotto ( to which brog obviously is).

That would be a good question to ask if I was against this idea that Gnome RP is suffering and the Grotto (as it has done for pretty much always). But you might be forgetting I am not, and I suggested ideas for ways of improving it and hopefully taking it out of a constant state of limbo.

I didn't say your opinions don't matter, I said both that the opinions of those less directly involved are not always wrong, and that the opinions of those that are more directly involved are not always honest.

3.Well one player is a significant amount when the active gnomes that actually seem to stick around, and go anywhere near the grotto is as low as it is. I have gotten the same general viewpoints from a few different gnomes IG. Was that exile from the current grotto population or the same ones who signed the shroud charter and aren't regularly active?

Again it has always been low, this is nothing new. If it's your OOC thought that the Shroud Charter or Brogendenstein exiling the Grotto's active Gnomes (which isn't true) is the reason the Grotto is in the state it is in, I can tell you that as somebody who has played well before EE, it isn't.

Again, it has always had a low playercount. It is not a problem born out of IC actions, but something born out of a lack of Gnome identity ingrained into the areas they occupy .. and (in my personal opinion) the 50/50 decisions which pair together Svirfneblin and Rock Gnomes .. who are near polar opposites in terms of racial traditions and qualities.

4. How assuming, I don't know when you have last gone to Andunor on any character. If you go to Andunor now, you will notice there are a good amount of npc svirfs down there between the svirf run shipyard, and the svirf in the andunor library (a good amount given how small svirf population is supposed to be). Just because those other races are there doesn't mean that any and all svirfs that go there will be enslaved or force to work for the drow/duergar/monster races there. They also actually rp it as a trade city, rather than just acting like its one in name only, which is probably what the others settlements did at that time. The districts and their leadership appear to tackle issues that damage trade and business not just those that endanger the city among the other things they do (or to plot the demise of the surface like some think).

I'm willing to accept if you say Svirfneblin have a strong presence in Andunor, even though I believe it is slightly against the lore of the race. That's the Dev's decision and I don't see much point in arguing it.

Still though my point was not 'get all Svirfneblin out of Andunor' .. not once have I advocated that, but the point I've stated a few times seems to have been ignored by a few people, so I'll say it again again again.

I think the Grotto would be more active if it resembled something closer to a Svirfneblin home, rather than an all Gnome home, which fostered RP reliant on:
- Protection from the Surface
- Protection from the Underdark
- Wardens who make killing Drow their duty
- Excavation
- The expolration and use of Illusory magic
- Etc ..

[Queen Titania]

The Grotto used to be just a place for Svirfneblin. Over a very long period of time, they made connections with and were merged closer to the earthkin settlements. From observation in that time period, I do not think making it an all single subrace home as it once was, is the best idea, even if they should always remain the dominant subrace represented. I personally do not think changing it would have any effect on activity. Rather, I think the setting should be a bit more detailed and explained to fit Arelith's interpretation.

However, players can always try to push for changes and make the effort. Status quo is boring, after all, and it is entirely possible and allowed for a Svirf, a rock gnome, halfling, or even a pixie to run for leadership to make such changes a reality.

[Ascheriit]

No it does not just apply to the people the Dominion (although Terto was exiled after a ruling by the Earthkin Alliance) brands as evil, like Terto.

And I agree fully that if there are disgruntled folk who are against this treaty, them contesting it should absolutely be heeded by Brog players .. the problem is that bare minimum to nothing has been mentioned of it to any of us by people that aren't deemed objectively against the interests of both Brog and the Grotto. If your player has a case to make against it, then rally up support, argue this case .. fight tooth and nail.

The person who I asked to relay the question to you IG pmed and confirmed they did ask you, and were informed of the shroud charter as the response. Do expect it to be brought up again though.

As for the charter, I would like to contest that matter within gnome kind first. In fact I would actually like to be able to actually talk to them. But since none of them are actively around it makes it greatly difficult to do so, and I shouldn't have to be the one leaving notes to force someone to log in on a character for the first time in months. If one is not logging in on a character for months at a time then IG I would imagine they should be regarded as missing or away from the island (since that would be a long period of IG time).

Again, it has always had a low playercount. It is not a problem born out of IC actions, but something born out of a lack of Gnome identity ingrained into the areas they occupy .. and (in my personal opinion) the 50/50 decisions which pair together Svirfneblin and Rock Gnomes .. who are near polar opposites in terms of racial traditions and qualities.

Ever think of the other possibility? That it may not be a lack of identity, and that rock gnomes and svirfs may be fine with bending rp to be inclusive of each other (as I have observed with some). Instead they may not like the forced pairing with dwarves (especially as their arbitrary ruler)?

I'm willing to accept if you say Svirfneblin have a strong presence in Andunor, even though I believe it is slightly against the lore of the race. That's the Dev's decision and I don't see much point in arguing it.

Still though my point was not 'get all Svirfneblin out of Andunor' .. not once have I advocated that, but the point I've stated a few times seems to have been ignored by a few people, so I'll say it again again again.

I think the Grotto would be more active if it resembled something closer to a Svirfneblin home, rather than an all Gnome home, which fostered RP reliant on:
- Protection from the Surface
- Protection from the Underdark
- Wardens who make killing Drow their duty
- Excavation
- The *exploration* and use of Illusory magic
- Etc ..

Though there is nothing wrong with advocating for those, but it seems to push for the bias of yours that came out in the prior post (below) as to what you think is and isn't normal svirfneblin behavior (want to see us be consistent with FR lore). It should also be remembered that svirfneblin aren't some traditional surface race, and if someone wants to play traditionally then it should be a surprise to see one outside of the underdark at all. Not seeing svirfs on the surface or in the golden halls/bendir, doesn't mean that they are necessarily in Andunor (since you brand it as the city of evil), unless you go to the grotto much more often than I would imagine you do.

I'm not saying what you, or other Svirfneblin players have done in RPing largely in Andunor is wrong ..

But hanging around Andunor is both UnDwarf-like and UnSvirfneblin-like. I get it, what players do shouldn't be dictated by me, but the lore is very much against a strong contingent of Svirfneblin making their homes in a predominantly evil UD setting. I am not using this as an argument AGAINST Svirfneblin players doing this, but rather an argument FOR giving Svirfneblin players the tools to RP in a setting consistent with their lore.

Also .. Svirfs who do spend all their time in Andunor are likely to be seen as either evil, or certainly not good. That just comes with the territory, literally.

[Ascheriit]

The Grotto used to be just a place for Svirfneblin. Over a very long period of time, they made connections with and were merged closer to the earthkin settlements. From observation in that time period, I do not think making it an all single subrace home as it once was, is the best idea, even if they should always remain the dominant subrace represented. I personally do not think changing it would have any effect on activity. Rather, I think the setting should be a bit more detailed and explained to fit Arelith's interpretation.

However, players can always try to push for changes and make the effort. Status quo is boring, after all, and it is entirely possible and allowed for a Svirf, a rock gnome, halfling, or even a pixie to run for leadership to make such changes a reality.

Does that mean though we would have to run for leadership of Brog to do such? If one doesn't want to spend the majority of their time as a svirf running around the surface, then it would be basically impossible to gather the support to win. Especially against someone whos been entrenched as leader for 2 IRL years. It would be even more unlikely, if the surface candidates employed any of the sort of tactics I saw used in Andunor.

[Queen Titania]

The Grotto used to be just a place for Svirfneblin. Over a very long period of time, they made connections with and were merged closer to the earthkin settlements. From observation in that time period, I do not think making it an all single subrace home as it once was, is the best idea, even if they should always remain the dominant subrace represented. I personally do not think changing it would have any effect on activity. Rather, I think the setting should be a bit more detailed and explained to fit Arelith's interpretation.

However, players can always try to push for changes and make the effort. Status quo is boring, after all, and it is entirely possible and allowed for a Svirf, a rock gnome, halfling, or even a pixie to run for leadership to make such changes a reality.

Does that mean though we would have to run for leadership of Brog to do such? If one doesn't want to spend the majority of their time as a svirf running around the surface, then it would be basically impossible to gather the support to win. Especially against someone whos been entrenched as leader for 2 IRL years. It would be even more unlikely, if the surface candidates employed any of the sort of tactics I saw used in Andunor.

Yes you would. This may require imagining your Svirf more within Arelith's interpretation and not the interpretation you may be using for the lore, though I'm certain you can RP all of the classical tendencies without worry here as long as you don't confine yourself to a box. And it doesn't even have to necessarily be your character or another Svirf running. You could use a rock gnome that supported the cause as a proxy, or another dwarf, or a hin even. The very attempt, even if not succesful, generates story and conflict. Status quo is boring, and I'm pretty sure the player behind the Thane would enjoy a bit of contesting.

Your character can employ dirty or clean tactics themselves, but remember even failure can generate some of the changes you are looking for, and losing at your goals and fights is where the greatest character development occurs, not winning.

[A little fellow]

(Writing this on a phone so it’s not going to be perfect but hey)

1) I recall that interaction and the answer I gave. It was presented without much reference, or much weight, and so the response was such. If I remember correctly it was also some weeks (maybe months) ago it was said to Ghestaldt.

2) I might be wrong on the 50/50 setup of the Grotto contributing to a lack of shared goals and tradition, yes. But I’ve been around long enough to see Rock Gnome/Svirf conflicts play out and lead to the Grotto being unable to move on from it and forward with other projects .. overall, and speaking from what experience I have, I do believe that is a part of the problem, even if it does lead to some interesting RP.

Another point of mine that I’ll have to repeat again again again again, is that I do not mind if people are bending the main traits of Svirfneblin, but I think good would come out of /encouraging the RP of unbent Svirfneblin lore/. It’s an idea that doesn’t infringe upon you in any way.

3) Hinting that I’m bias is honestly too strong a word to level at me considering I’ve done nothing but express my opinions, and these forums are specifically designed for the expression and debate of opinions, after all.

To hint that I’ve got some prejudice or agenda is just wrong, as not only have I supported change for the Grotto including the removal of powers that /my character specifically has over everyone else (but hasn’t particularly used)/, in order to help Gnomes have a hub of RP is proof that I’m looking at this thing objectively, but with differing views on how to help that ..

I’ve not accused you of anything in the heat of the moment .. but to be called bias regardless of that only brings your potential prejudices into question. Let’s be friendly here.


4) it’s worth knowing that the placement of the Grotto now was specifically down to the actions of Svirfneblin players advocating the merge IC. You may feel forced into it now, but it was the will and actions of Gnome players before you that have you here, you shouldn’t forget that.

[Ironfoot]

When i said actions have consequences i consider myself also, my toon did something a bit out of the gnome box and as result is no more, but hey it created a story even as i wanted to play it more and miss it.

Nail note on board regarding lore and i am sure someone will show up.

As for Brog its earthkin settlement now not just dwarfs *hides*.

[MalKalz]

s per request of the OP, we are locking it.