"Elemental Review" or "Why NOT the Ancient Water Elemental?"

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triaddraykin
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"Elemental Review" or "Why NOT the Ancient Water Elemental?"

Post by triaddraykin » Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:59 am

This is the best information I could really find on comparing the elementals, and it's about 2 years old. I think we have had the Spell Focus changes since then, and it's really flip flopped to where the Water elemental is on top, if you have the Ancient one. The aura of regeneration, and it seems to have useful AB and AC. There appears to be no reason to use any other elemental. I was wondering what people use the different elementals for in different situation, and yes, I have read the summons article.
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Re: "Elemental Review" or "Why NOT the Ancient Water Elemental?"

Post by Peppermint » Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:22 am

Fire = DPS. It's a niche choice that works for some builds.

Air and Earth are... eh.

Air was intended to be the best duelist elemental, and it really is--but practically speaking, that's not something you usually want in a summon. Earth is just a touch undertuned.

I was planning to tone down the water elemental's regeneration, bump the earth elemental's DR and/or damage a tad, and as for air, eh. I hadn't quite settled. Either push it further toward utility (e.g. a ranged concealment aura) or give it persistent AoE damage (e.g. a swirling storm). Probably the latter.

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Re: "Elemental Review" or "Why NOT the Ancient Water Elemental?"

Post by Cortex » Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:21 am

Earth is borderline immortal if you're playing a healer cleric. Air is the only one that needs help.
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Re: "Elemental Review" or "Why NOT the Ancient Water Elemental?"

Post by Hexgoblin » Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:35 am

The fire elemental is my most used out of the four, but it's maintenance heavy. Fully buffed, it's hitting substantially higher AC numbers than the water elemental, and outdoes its damage by far. It doesn't regenerate, and needs to be kept concealed and hasted to be truly effective as a solitary frontliner, though. A good mantra is to maintain it in the same way you would a melee party member, whose output and quality of life you're constantly trying to improve from your role as party support(AKA a mage). Meanwhile, as a druid or battlecleric, I'll use it to supplement my own DPS, while providing the brunt of frontline tanking myself.

The water elemental can kind of just be 'left there' to steadily live through things at high teens to low epics dungeon content. After that, all of the elementals fall out of use, with things piercing well past their DR and AC numbers. The water is just really easy to use, if you're sitting on ample supplies of patience.

For a healer path cleric, as Cortex pointed out, I'll use the earth elemental. Its DR and DI meld so well with the perpetual healing and temp hp shell awarded by the healer's 7th circle Regeneration spell. Its damage is steady.

So, for a summarized review.
Air: Useless.

Earth: Best in slot for a healer path cleric.

Fire: Highest ceiling out of the four, but with a low floor. It takes a lot of investment to get it going. But time is money, afterall, and it is by far the fastest killer of the bunch.

Water: Decent party support via the aura, and will live the best out of the four with little investment. Suffers from a mediocre damage output.

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Re: "Elemental Review" or "Why NOT the Ancient Water Elemental?"

Post by Peppermint » Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:44 am

I'll add that I feel the water elemental's aura may be a little unhealthy. I do like the sustain model for it, but it may be better to tweak so that it heals nearby party members (occasionally) when it lands an attack in melee, so as to reward using the summon offensively.

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Re: "Elemental Review" or "Why NOT the Ancient Water Elemental?"

Post by Jagel » Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:52 am

And prevent “let’s stand around and heal up for free” breaks between spawns.

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Re: "Elemental Review" or "Why NOT the Ancient Water Elemental?"

Post by Nitro » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:28 am

Yeah, giving arcane casters a source of free, infinite group regeneration in the form of a summon that is also very combat capable seems a little strange for a design choice. Let the water elemental keep its own regen but give it some other utility, maybe a freedom aura around it or somesuch, cleansing waters and all.

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Re: "Elemental Review" or "Why NOT the Ancient Water Elemental?"

Post by triaddraykin » Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:37 pm

I more meant this to be a similar breakdown of elementals such as what's shown in that thread I linked. I wanted to know what people use the other elementals for. I don't want to lose what the water elemental is good at, I wanted to know what people use the other summons for. Like, when's a good time to switch?
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Re: "Elemental Review" or "Why NOT the Ancient Water Elemental?"

Post by Cortex » Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:54 pm

too bad water might just go ... down the drain ...

Image
:)

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Re: "Elemental Review" or "Why NOT the Ancient Water Elemental?"

Post by chris a gogo » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:14 pm

Fire is the best damage and as such the best summon.
You can heal it with kits and massively buff it up on arcane casters.

Of course the single most important reason it's the best is that it's the only one that can kill trolls without help!

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Re: "Elemental Review" or "Why NOT the Ancient Water Elemental?"

Post by Nitro » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:22 pm

Not that anyone who can summon ancient elementals has problems with trolls. Just make a wand of acid splash for chump change and you're set for ages.

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Re: "Elemental Review" or "Why NOT the Ancient Water Elemental?"

Post by Poolbrain » Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:21 am

Air elemental doesnt seem to be affected by a lot of conjuration aoe like grease. I use to combo them like that. Earth elemental is immune kd so also nice with grease. There's so much fire damage around though so earth and air tends to die fast because of spell damage. I think its possible clear way higher spawns with air if you combo it well and dont let it get nuked.

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Re: "Elemental Review" or "Why NOT the Ancient Water Elemental?"

Post by WanderingPoet » Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:14 pm

I'll be the odd one and say I like the air elemental best. It may not regenerate but between epic dodge a high base AC which can be thrown higher and 50% concealment it ends up being very hard to hit (and thus hard to kill) - that is also has improved evasion just makes it harder for magic to take it down too.

As said above it also works well with just about every persistent aoe spell: Grease, Cloud of Bewilderment, incendiary cloud, stonehold, and potentially blade barrier if that affects allies (can't recall).

Water elemental dies much too quick and is just a heal machine, fire also dies pretty fast but at least does a lot of damage. Earth elemental I just find too big and wouldn't want to use it unless I had it as a totem just for that reason alone, but it isn't very tanky compared to the air elemental unless you're against people that does really low damage.
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Re: "Elemental Review" or "Why NOT the Ancient Water Elemental?"

Post by Wytchee » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:01 pm

The air elemental needs some sonic damage added, akin to the druid form.
Earth needs more DR. Functionally it dies far too easily, given its low AC.
Fire needs a bit more DR given that you /want/ it to get hit.
Water is fine.

At present I like the fire elemental the best. Trickery healer cleric or mage with imp invis and cat's grace can boost its AC into the 50s with 50% concealment. But it defeats the purpose of having the fire elemental, which is to have it get hit.

Ultimately though what I'd like to see is planar summons tied to Summon Creature rather than Planar Binding. More diversity in summons late-game is desperately needed.
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Re: "Elemental Review" or "Why NOT the Ancient Water Elemental?"

Post by RedGiant » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:22 am

I mostly endorse Wytchee's take on the elementals.

On a Druid, I personally use fire all the time. I really like the very specific roles each has now, and wouldn't recommend them being changed. As many have said, Earth needs the most help, followed by Air. I would recommend leaving Fire and Water as they are.

This thread seems to be about Water being too good. I think this is an early game perspective, which is not at all true into the 20s. For example, my ancient water elemental took quite a few many minutes to kill an Underdark Egg Spider (a mid-level boss). As the pinnacle of the summoners art, this is hardly overwhelming. Overall, I think water is perfect for party support and I would hate to see it change.
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Re: "Elemental Review" or "Why NOT the Ancient Water Elemental?"

Post by Diilicious » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:42 am

Earth - General use and go-to summon
Water - when going to places with fire spamming creatures
Fire - When going to places filled with undead creatures
Air - Never. (I used an air elemental combined with a silence spell to harrass a mage guy a long time ago, but never since)
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Re: "Elemental Review" or "Why NOT the Ancient Water Elemental?"

Post by Diilicious » Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:49 pm

Cortex wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:21 am
Earth is borderline immortal if you're playing a healer cleric. Air is the only one that needs help.
I agreed with this up until ive just gone to benwick again and the mobs have been buffed so that pretty much only the water elemental is useful, they literally tear through an earth elemental.
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Re: "Elemental Review" or "Why NOT the Ancient Water Elemental?"

Post by Cortex » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:25 pm

Fiends have been tweaked recently to be more fitting of being the armies of Hell.
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Re: "Elemental Review" or "Why NOT the Ancient Water Elemental?"

Post by JediMindTrix » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:45 pm

Fiends feel a little overtuned tbh.

Edit: In some situations.
Last edited by JediMindTrix on Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Elemental Review" or "Why NOT the Ancient Water Elemental?"

Post by Cortex » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:11 am

Make a thread about it highlighting why.
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Re: "Elemental Review" or "Why NOT the Ancient Water Elemental?"

Post by Diilicious » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:10 am

I like the stronger feinds personally, but it doesnt change that it reinforces water elemental use sadly :(
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Re: "Elemental Review" or "Why NOT the Ancient Water Elemental?"

Post by goatte » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:43 am

Back to elementals:

I have the streams for fire and air. I was tempted to hunt down water, but after focusing on the air elemental, it's definitely on the back burner. Why?

Ever had a mass of folks jammed up in a doorway with no way to get your elemental into play? Ever had a big baddy behind a mass of cannon fodder with just ranged weapons making their life difficult? Ever wanted to force the enemy to follow your elemental around the battlefield?

Answer: Air elementals are not limited by space (they technically don't take up space according to the game engine). They can pass through a mass of warriors and reach that big baddy hiding in the back of a room with that narrow doorway. I have also used the Air elemental to draw different groups together into one big one that I can hit with an AoE spell.

I love "Lady-Sky" and would not trade her for the other three. *grins* Also, it makes more sense for the least disruptive elemental to come to the Call of a nature cleric/druid.
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Re: "Elemental Review" or "Why NOT the Ancient Water Elemental?"

Post by flower » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:26 pm

I was using a lot ancient air one, it was good vs mediocrate npcs, barely being hit. But when you already go into harder places, the sustaining air elemental is pain and water one is definately better in that regard.

The concealment air elemental has is awsome, but if you put concealment on water elemental then it looses its advantage (the air one has over others). Perhaps increase concealment to like 70% or add small regeneration (or complete immunities to lightning, fire...as it represents air).

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Re: "Elemental Review" or "Why NOT the Ancient Water Elemental?"

Post by thingsicantdo » Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:41 pm

as much as i love that regen aura, it needs to go. wizards/sorcs should not have that much healing ability.

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Re: "Elemental Review" or "Why NOT the Ancient Water Elemental?"

Post by susitsu » Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:57 am

Earth being immortal as a healer cleric is like justifying AFK gameplay.

It's still killing things literally slower than the water elemental.

Those arguing for the air elemental do so out of ignorance, using it outside of PvP on the fly is like crippling your party.

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